1960 Invicta front suspension swap / brake swap

[bgentsch]

howdy

 

I wonder if I can find anybody here to talk to with some questions regarding to a front suspension / brake swap on a 1960 Buick

ride tech is selling a set for 1960 Impalas but not for Buicks. both are GM so whats the difference ? I saw fatman swaps as well.

any input is welcome.

[61polara]

In 1960, all GM divisions did their own engineering.  Chevy never offered finned aluminum brake drums for cooling the drums like your Buick has.  

Edited February 6, 2018 by 61polara (see edit history)

[NTX5467]

One reason for the Chevy applications is the greater number of them compared to Buicks.  As noted, each GM division had their own Chief Engineers, back then, and they had different orientations about some things.  Shock absorber mountings was one such area.  If the Olds engineers liked shocks with one type of mounting on each end of the front shock, they did what they liked.  Which usually was different than what the Chevy engineers did.  The internals of the shocks might have been pretty close, but as the end mounts were different,  what the shocks' internals were was a mystery.

 

Willwood makes a front disc brake conversion kit for older Buicks (and other cars).  Not sure what all's involved or what additional things would need to be changed.

 

Personally, I like a suspension with "wheel travel" and a ride height that is pretty much stock, as a result.  Maintaining those relationships also means that wheel alignment specs are what they should be.  NOT a fan of RideTech or any other related "add-on air suspension mechanism" and what has to be done to the vehicle  to use that stuff.  Better handling can be had with the addition of a rear anti-roll bar, HD shocks, upgraded front anti-roll bar, and similar.

 

NTX5467

[KongaMan]

For one thing, the Chevy is more in need of a front end upgrade.  The 60 Buick may not be on a par with a new BMW, but a 60 Chevy isn't on a par with a 60 Buick, either.

 

Better shocks, stiffer springs, a heavier sway bar, etc. will help.  Not to mention that if you're still running on original bushings and steering components (tie rods, ball joints, etc.), a little R&R there can be a big improvement.  Again, this ain't a modern sports sedan, but folks often think that what they have now is as good as it can get without a drastic overhaul.  In most cases, it isn't.

[NTX5467]

AND many handling ills can also be traced to the bushings in the rear suspension.

 

NTX5467

[bgentsch]

thank you guys for your thoughts.

I really do not expect the handling of a modern sports car. I was just under the impression that it might be easier with a new suspension setup to switch to front discs.

it would work for me to make all the improvements mentioned before if there would be a good source.

I already changed to energy suspension swaybar blocks and Moog sway bar links. I would be happy to get links to retailer or manufacturer which know what a 1960 Buick needs.

who is selling a stronger front sway bar? who is selling better ball joint and all the other components ? I know Kanter is offering a kit - any experience ?

any suggestions for a disc brake conversion kit that fits the original spindles? I tried www.classicdiscbrakes.com and they sent me the wrong kit (not very convincing)

 

Brian

 

Edited February 6, 2018 by bgentsch (see edit history)

[Beemon]

Dynamically, neglecting heat, drum brakes are far superior to discs. More surface area, self energizing and the braking works on tangential acceleration principals vs disc brakes radial acceleration principals. When you add heat to the mix, drums suck. However, Buicks of the era had 12" drums with 1.5" width and the drum exterior was aluminum with radiated fins that poke out from behind the wheel. The Buick aluminum brakes reduce heat very well and are on par, if not better, than modern brake systems (sans ABS). The drum setup is also engineered to work with your car, and suspension points are tuned for the backing plate and components to be centered on the hub. If you look at modern hubs, they're always strengthened to the side of the caliper so weight fatigue does not impact the spindle (or hub). Placing heavy calipers on one side of the hub could potentially distort the mounting, especially under hard braking, and result in less than desirable conditions.

 

Just things to consider, coming from someone who went from drum to disc and back to drum again.

[superbuick]

My 1960 Wagon had disc brakes installed by last owner. It was a simple kit with later GM rotors, calipers with caliper adapter brackets. Unsure of brand. But... it did not stop near as well as my other 1959 and 1960 Buick's. Read Beemon reasons, If took more pedal pressure and longer stopping length. Never had a problem with those big aluminum drums overheating. So on a good driver I would not recommend a change to disc.

Steve

[60FlatTop]

On 2/5/2018 at 7:55 PM, bgentsch said:

any input is welcome

 

Chevy brake conversions are pretty common. Some guys say it is all over the counter stuff, "Engineered in sight, must be right."

 

 

What motivates you to want to mess around with the Buick anyway?

 

Bernie

 

 

[bgentsch]

my motivation is a rattling front, brakes that make the car stop like a supertanker and ugly stock steel wheels with no choice of substitution.

 

[NTX5467]

There ARE plusses for drum brakes and disc brakes.  When Buick did the aluminum brake drums (with a cast iron liner), that was "high tech" for that era as other cars used more common cast iron drums.  Fins helped dissipate heat on both.  But the key to drum brake performance is the lining/friction material.  Back then, that was a very variable situation!

 

Full-metallic brake linings were the HD linings back then.  When hot, they worked great, coming as standard equipment on the '61 Chevy Impala SS cars from the factory.  But drag racers couldn't stage their cars against the brake with them, so they changed them to normal stuff, for that reason.  ON that "first stop in the cold morning", needed power brakes and a strong booster to get the car stopped.  Old-Tank has noted that one brand of brake linings were too hard and took too long to stop, compared to OEM stock linings, but the other brand of linings was much closer to OEM stock performance.

 

Beemon's been through all of the disc conversion issues on his car, and went back to drums for best results.

 

There IS a website that Scarebird has that uses stock components to upgrade earlier vehicles with, as in disc brake conversions and such.  Usually using common GM did brake parts (which means you can buy this stuff at the local auto supply).  Not sure how closely the engineering stats, including brake pedal leverage ratios, might be to the earlier vehicles, though.  The factory engineering is usually a little more "robust" than many aftermarket items, by observation.

 

So, rather than get involved with disc brake kits just yet, research the availability of higher-performance brake linings for your vehicle.  On the side of the lining, there should be an "edge code" which identifies the friction material's source, when built, and heat ratings (cold and hot).  I know they are there on disc brake pads, so presume they'll be there on drum brake linings, too.  From when I was looking around last, I discovered that the 12" brakes were common to Buick, Olds, Cadillac cars in the later 1950s, common as to they all take the same brake linings, which means much, if not all, of the other things interchange, too.  Even with the larger diameter drums, they didn't stop as well as they could have, in many cases.  This gets back to the friction lining composition issue.

 

NTX5467

[superbuick]

I agree with NTX5467. I have run my repair shop for 40 years and we work on a lot of classic cars. Every couple of months a nice car come in with poor braking. You almost have to use both feet and they are afraid to let the wife drive the car. After all wheel cylinders, hoses check out I go for a test drive. While going down a steep hill at 30 I shut off the engine, pump the brakes to loose the assist and then try and stop the car. Most of the time I can only slow the car because of hard and improper friction material. Then the shoes get removed, a light clean cut on the drums and then I send the shoes out to a brake and clutch shop in Seattle. They re-line the shoes, arc them to match the drums.

After it is assembled the car ALWAYS stops very well. They stop so well the owner needs to be careful until they get used to it. But the car will lock them up in a panic stop and work well cold and hot. I have corrected 20 cars this way from 1930s-1963. After that most of the off the shelf shoes seem better matched.

 

And with your bolt pattern 5 on 5 there are many wheels to chose from. I think the fined aluminum loos cool thru the wheels.

Edited February 8, 2018 by superbuick
missing info (see edit history)

[Beemon]

True, over the counter brake linings suck. If they're $20, they're most likely garbage. However, NAPA does sell a shoe using their best linings for 12x2.5" drums. This is what I put on my Buick and it was night and day.

 

https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/RBPUP419R?interchange=1

 

Probably not as good as the re-lined shoes, but leagues ahead of the $20 over the counter junk.

 

Superbuick, I'm from the Seattle area and would love to know where you got your shoes relined.

[superbuick]

Sure,

BRAKE & CLUTCH SUPPLY
2930 6TH AVE S.
SEATTLE WA 98134      206-510-3691

I have had good luck with Napa when they have the correct size. A big help is the shoes arked to match the drums.

They work good right away instead of driving for thousands of mile to seat the shoes in. Some customers that is 2-5 years.

 Steve