Judging at Hershey

[Guest]

How can I judge at Hershey if I haven't signed up ahead of time?

[Rick Hoover]

Smithwoods,<P>It is my understanding that you will still be accepted. I would call Marie Lesher at her number listed at the bottom of your sign up sheet to be sure, before sending it in.<P>Rick

[Guest]

I don't have a sign-up sheet. I misplaced the newsletter with the Hershey form. I requested a replacement but have heard nothing.I will be at Hershey Oct 10, Who do I see to sign up to judge?

[Guest]

Marie Lesher is Chief judge this year, and is at 717-274-0602. It may be hard to find her during the meet, so why not contact her before you go?

[novaman]

1. you must be a member of AACA or the spouse of a member.<P>2. you must possess or have possessed a valid driver's license.<P>3. the ability to be fair, honest, understanding and reasonable when evaluating a vechile.<P>the steps to become a judge are:<BR>(short version)<BR>1. go to a judging school.<BR>2. Your first "on field" assignment will be in an apprentice team.<P>Read the judges manual. <A HREF="http://www.aaca.org/judging/index.htm" TARGET=_blank>click here for manual</A><P>Gald your interested.

[Guest]

what are the requirements to be a judge??

[Guest]

I contacted the Hershey chief judge. All set! THANKS!!! This for Ted- become a judge, its the best way to see a lot of neat cars up close and everyone moves out of your way. See you At Hershey. [will be in the lemon field]

[Guest]

Boy has someone told you the wrong information - - - <B>People do not move out of the judges way at Hershey</B>in fact it is one of the worst places to judge. You will get an education.<P>Mickey

[novaman]

Yeah, if you end up judging chassis, be prepared to be stepped on and or tripped over. I've even been told to get out of the way so someone could take a photo. <BR>Yes there are alot of "odd" old cars that you only get to see at Hershey but it is one of the toughest to judge at due to the crowd.

[Guest]

I have judged at Hershey for the last 8 years and people have been ok. You will always run into the odd [censored] at ANY meet, you just ignore them.

[novaman]

I've been judging there for 15 years. As someone who does the chassis 99% of the time, you find out that some people don't watch where they are walking at all. I've had my hand stepped on and been tripped over. Fortunely nobody fell.<P>Hershey is really crowd due the numbers of people and cars. I realize that it makes it tougher to move around and to judge and I accept that as simply as being part of judging at Hershey.

[ronbarn]

I've been judging there for about 20 years and when assigned as Team Captain or Deputy and if the crowd is heavy, I now walk up to the vehicle which the team is ready to judge and announce in a loud voice, "This vehicle is being judged - spectators step aside". It usually works!

[Guest]

You must have been my team captain once! Hershey can test you but until last year at Punta Gorda, Fla ,Hershey was the ONLY show I could get to to judge. Looks like I learned to judge at the hardest show. I look forward to judging at Hershey, no rain or mud please

[Guest]

I had 3 cars at Hershey this year to be judged and I think that the judges did an outstanding job this year. They were short handed and in one of the classes that I was in 1 set of judges did the cars going for the first junior, senior, and preservation. They were judging til 1 pm at least and I dont think they got a chance to see everything that was going on there on Saturday. My hats off to the judges this year as every year.

[Guest]

Could these people possibly be from the same corps of judges which Mr. redt spends so much time roundly criticizing? <P>How refreshing to have someone recognize the time and efforts given to our hobby by the AACA judges. Thank you. ~ hvs

[Guest]

No Howard,you have it all wrong about me.<BR> I'm not personally against any judge,it's the many flaws in the system that will never be corrected,because of "hard-headed" leadership.<BR> Example:Never in my life have I seen a carrier loaded with new vehicles equipped with the license plates,leaving the factory. But yet,for 40 years, I've set in judging schools and heard it over and over..."that AACA judges cars as they leave the factory",not as they leave the dealership. Never have I even seen dealers who purchased and mounted license plates for the customer. But yet over and over I see points deducted for fasteners people use to mount their license plates. I will not take up space on the board with many more examples I could give,but I think most any simple minded person can get the point.<BR>Thanks for your time.

[ply33]

RedT said:<blockquote>Never in my life have I seen a carrier loaded with new vehicles equipped with the license plates,leaving the factory. But yet,for 40 years, I've set in judging schools and heard it over and over..."that AACA judges cars as they leave the factory",not as they leave the dealership. Never have I even seen dealers who purchased and mounted license plates for the customer. But yet over and over I see points deducted for fasteners people use to mount their license plates.</blockquote>IANIJ (I am not into judging) so don't take my word for this.<P>You are required to have license plates by your state motor vehicle code. In California (and perhaps other states) you are required to have a driver side rear view mirror and are required to have a rear reflector. No "on or after date." No exceptions. Without those items you risk being stopped for equipment violations by the uniformed representatives of the state. Not likely I will admit, but it could happen. The AACA is not in a position to over rule the government on required equipment, so there are no AACA judging deductions for such items. Simple: A private organization cannot over rule the government.<P>But, that legally required equipment should be installed in a manner appropriate to the age of the vehicle, with good workmanship and in good condition. The AACA can require that much.<P>On my car it would have been impossible for the original owner to use Phillips head screws to attach the license plates or the rear reflector, they simply were not available back then. So the use of Phillips head screws will cause a deduction. Slotted screws would be okay because they were available. Bailing wire was available but probably runs the risk of being considered poor workmanship and would thus draw a deduction.<P>There is some logic to all this. And it ain't all that obtuse.<P>Howard: Did I get it right?

[Guest]

<B>BRAVO</B>, Tod. <P>To quote redt, even the most simple minded could get it.<P>I hope redt gets it. <P>Howard <p>[ 10-31-2001: Message edited by: hvs ]

[Guest]

Yes Howard, I've always had the FACTS.<BR>We have never,& Will never judge cars as they<BR>were,when they left the factory or the dealer.<BR>We judge them the way they sit on the Field, <BR>by the AACA handbook. Simple enough to understand.

[Guest]

Anything you say, red. <P>I guess if we judged them exactly as they left the factory, the hubcaps would have to be in the trunk and with some kind of protective shield over the front ends [applied at the factory to protect the paint while on the car carriers].<P>Oh yes, the early '46s would have to have wooden bumpers and a spare wheel but no tire in the trunk.<P>And my '24 Buick, and no doubt other cars, must be exhibited without a tire on the spare rim.<P>There must be dozens of other ridiculous "as it left the factory" requirements that would add so much to our cars. All we are trying to do is establish a reasonable basis for what is correct. There is no way on earth that "exactly as it left the factory" can be rigidly adhered to.<P>If I understand your criticism of the AACA judging system it is that we do not rigidly adhere to "as it left the factory". How about a better wording from one who has so much negative to say about the current system.<P>Be positive for a change, red. Contribute something worthwhile.<P>hvs

[fordee9r (Ron Springstead)]

Hey Howard,<P>All I can say is "Bravo", "10-4", "Dittos", etc. <P>Too often, there are too many out there who just want to "[censored]" and offer no constructive criticism. <P>Also too often, when these people are approached for suggestions on how to improve the situation, they clam up and try to drop into the background. <P>I don't know redT, but I sense that he likes to hear himself "[censored]" and complain and offer no viable solution to his perceived problem. <P>Just my thoughts....

[Guest]

Okay,Guys,<BR> Why do you consider "bitchin" and gripping<BR> when a person points out flaws in the system,such as the falsehood thats always been stated by the judging directors (we judge cars as the way they left the factory).<BR> As in Howard's last post,he pointed out that this is a false statement. I go to very extensive lengths to get a positive point across. Okay,my solution is for this false statement to never be used again and to merely state "that AACA judges cars as they appear on the show field on workmanship and authenticity ,equipped with factory accessories only". <BR> Now that I have offered a solution to this ,we will start a new subject later on judging schools.

[novaman]

in the thread on "Is origninality (vs. restaores) valued by judges?" I had this to ask of redt at that time:"As of yet, I haven't really seen any help from your direction in fixing a judging program, which from reading your posts needs big time help. If your going to be so vocal on this issue, stop degrading everyone and help come up with a viable solution.". Haven't heard a solution yet, and from the thread it sounds like a simple wording problem where some ( I have heard this some a few others than redt) take the "from the factory" to the extreme. If you drive your early model Fords (the model escapes me now. Too much comptuer aid design (CAD Drafting)class tonight), in NY State it better have the bumpers on it and not wrapped up and in the back seat. You'll get a ticket for that one. I almost got one and it was due to doing repair work on the car and needing it for transportion at the same time.<p>[ 11-01-2001: Message edited by: novaman ]

[Guest]

All, I'm saying is stop useing the the false<BR>Statement. On any given day, at any car show,<BR>more than 85% of the cars are not as they<BR>left the factory.<BR> Question for all judges.<BR>1. What system does AACA have to educate judges on automobiles?<BR>2. Why do 64 Pontiacs equipped with factory air have a grey covering on the wiring harness under the hood?<BR>3. What is the correct finish on the engine fuel lines on V-8 Buicks,from 53 thru 57?<BR> The last two questions are just a couple of things that I personally documented for the National judging director.<BR> Now for a little history, I showed my first car (which I personally restored) in an AACA National show in 1968.I attended my first judging school in 1970. Over the years, thru the seventies,I would hear questions asked from the floor and the reply from the director would be.."this is a judging school, not a restoration school". So in the eighties,i began trying to persuade the National to present restoration seminars at all the local shows to provide some kind of educational system for the judges. In 1985,I began extensive research and preparation for a seminar on the engine chassis and trunk compartment of cars of the fifties. No one asked me to do this,I did it on my own because I saw a need to try and help members with knowledge on the restoration of their vehicles. i have more than 1000 slides in my attic that I made during this research. I presented the seminar at the annual meeting in Philadelphia in 87 and 88. Then I decided that I would be more beneficial to the hobby by becoming a restoration advisor rather than being a judge. This way I am free to roam the showfield and talk to car owners ,giving advice on improvements that can be made in preparing their cars for you guys to judge.<BR> I know no one is interested but I have this one and one-half hour seminar on video that could be available to anyone that wants it at a very small fee for copying.

[Guest]

Red ~ I didn't know that you were an "On the judging field restoration advisor."<P>How does that work? Do you just go around offering your advice as you see the need to do so, or does an owner have to seek you out for your expert knowledge? Are appointments necessary? Do you charge a fee, and if so is it a flat rate or by the hour? <P>I just had no idea that this service was being provided. You should advertise nationally. Something like "AUTOMOTIVE EXPERT AVAILABLE AT AACA JUDGING EVENTS!"<P>hvs

[Guest]

Howard,<BR> I offer free advice to anyone I see who needs it. I don't classify myself as an AACA restoration advisor.I'm not like a lot of people I've heard who boast about being an AACA judge,as tho that makes them an expert on cars. <BR> You know,year after year ,I see spectators lined up around the entrance route at Hershey to view the cars as they come on to the field. But you know,in all my years ,I've never seen any spectators lined up to view the judges as they enter the field. Just one more question..what makes this hobby what it is? The car owners with the extensive expense they go thru in restoring and transporting their vehicles to show sites or is the hobby about the judges who give up a little time on show day to appraise the cars?<BR> I may be wrong,as many of you feel I've been in the past, but I have always been under the impression that the object of AACA was for the restoration & preservation of the vehicles. <BR> Just my opinion.

[Guest]

Yes red, but do the cars and judging not go hand in hand?<P>Would there be 1600 cars exhibited at Hershey if it were announced that, "Next year we will not judge the cars. We just want you to bring them out for everybody to look at." <P>Would most people spend the money they do to restore cars if there was no judging system [however imperfect you feel it is] to evaluate the cars after completion of the restoration? <P>And finally, why did you have your cars judged all the way up to the Grand National level if the AACA judging system was so bad? <P>You can't have it both ways baby.<P>And as for free advice, there is an OLD saying, "Free advice is worth what you pay for it." You better start charging. ~ hvs

[Guest]

Howard,<BR> Oct. 3-7 There were 4024 Registered Antique<BR>cars cruising the coast of Mississippi. With<BR>"NO" judging. The hobby is changing, could you be that far behind? By the way, I have my<BR>cars judged, from time to time, just to test<BR>out the system.<BR> Oh yes, when I got my GN trophy I was a Liberal now I've grown up.

[Guest]

4024 <B>REAL</B> antiques red, or 4024 <B>STREET RODS</B>? <P>If you are just "testing the system" do you accept the awards and allow your name to be published in ANTIQUE AUTOMOBILE among the winners. Isn't it humiliating to be listed with all those cars receiving awards as the result of AACA judging? <P>hvs

[Guest]

Surrender,Howard,you've lost!!<BR> Why did you send me a personal email referring to "what the system has become",but yet you continually attempt to humiliate me on this board?<BR> You're fighting a losing battle.

[Guest]

Is this what you refer to as a streetrod<BR>Howard? This car has been driven 27000<BR>miles since restoration.<A HREF="http://http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=218547&a=1616969&p=55960292&f=0" TARGET=_blank>Collectable automobile Discussion Forum</A>

[Guest]

red ~ your link continually comes up "This page cannot be displayed." <P>Now Sherrel, I believe the time has come to apply the Frazzitta Principle to this lengthy discussion.<P>The origin of the principle goes back more than 50 years to a barbershop operated by a Mr. Nick Frazzitta, an elderly Sicilian barber.<P>My father always had his hair cut at this shop near his business, and one day was telling Nick about the problems he was having with an employee. My father said the man was in constant financial difficulty in spite of the fact that he [my father] had given him a raise, loaned him money without interest, found him a place to live near work, found him a doctor and paid the bill, paid for his medicines and given him other help. Still the man had money troubles. Nick looked at my father and said, "Meester Scotland, you cannot help a fool."<P>When I heard this story I began to refer to Nick's observation as the "Frazzitta Principle", and to this day think of it in situations like this.<P>So I will close my end of this discussion by invoking the Frazzitta Principle.<P>Howard

[Guest]

Howard:<BR>Now, we know why you Can't be Helped.<BR>Thanks Howard, Good to know about your problem.

[Guest]

And that Ladies and Gentlemen concludes our lastest episode of "How Great Thy EGO" starring redt and his trophies.<P>Stay tuned here for for continuing degrading of our Judging System with Red when we find out;<P>Will National appoint redt "Restoration Advisor"? And if so, will the AACA be able to afford a staffed EMS golf cart to follow his travels on the show fields as he tells car owners all what's wrong with their cars?<P>Will spectators begin lining up to watch the Judges enter the show field after breakfast?<P>Can HVS hold out and continue defending the AACA Judging System on his own with redt, or will Mrs. HVS finally pull the plug on his computer and say~ "Quit wasting your time talking to that *#&^$@!"<P>Will redt have to claim "earned income" on video copy fees?<P>And, after his last response to redt and seeking to purchase some Goody's Headache Powder late one night, will HVS ever convince the Cheyenne P.D. that the Taliban has taken over their local 7-11?<P> These and other answers are coming soon to a computer screen near you!<P> "Three cheers to the AACA Judging System and those who defend it!"<P>

[Idle Swede]

What "Earned income" on video copys?<BR>Have you seen orders pouring in on this website?<BR>I don't think he has to worry to much about getting rich quick at least not in this field.

[randjflo60]

Recently our daughter informed us that we will have a grandson around the end of February. I mentioned this to a friend of mine and we were jokingly wondering if AACA had "infant memberships" and "pre-natal membership applications".? Well, after reading the fecalations of Mr. Redt, I see these concerns must have already been addressed many years ago.<P>

[Idle Swede]

Congratulations Ron & Judy

[Guest]

Addressed but no action taken, <BR>Can anyone answer the 3 semple<BR>question? GUESS NOT.

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Mr. redt:<P>What in the daylights is a "3 semple question???".<P>Hit the 'ole spell check and maybe someone can help with an intelligent answer.

[ply33]

Lets see... Looks like about 14 posts on this since I last checked on Friday. Mostly redt and hvs. Whilst you all were pinned to you computers, I was out driving. <P>My wife and I spent the weekend in Yosemite Valley. A little over 500 miles on the 1933 Plymouth including the driving around the park. <P>A lot better way to spend the weekend that worrying about the philosophy of what is obtainable authenticity and how it should be judged. <P>Now, where the heck is that grammar and spelling checker when I need it...<p>[ 11-04-2001: Message edited by: ply33 ]