modern substitute for Water pump seal packing

[Oregon Desert model 45]

Has anyone tried using a modern press-in oil seal in place of the graphite cord water pump packing ?

A metric oil shaft seal with 19mm ID (.748") x 38mm OD (1.496") should fit the 1.50" bore of my water pump impeller housing packing bore, and fit snug around the .75" dia shaft. Since these oil seals are intended to be press in, the OD should still fit tight into the housing bore even though its nominal OD is .004 smaller. My model A Ford has a leakless water pump seal which replaced the old graphite cord packing material, and it really is leakless, so I have been looking for some similar substitute for the Buick.

Kevin

[Terry Wiegand]

Kevin, as the owner of three Buicks that use this very type of water pump technology, let me give you something to think about. Are you going to replace the pump shaft if you install this new type seal? I have completely rebuilt the water pump and made a new stainless shaft for my 1916 D-45. I used a stainless that was resistant to rust and corrosion versus the long wear characteristic. I also ran the shaft through a centerless grinder for the finish operation. It looks for all practical purposes like it has been plated and polished. To set everything back together and have the ignition timing perfect takes some very careful doing. But, I had the front timing gear cover off to be able to do all of this. Based on the appearance of the pump in your photos, it looks like your engine is equipped with a combination starter/generator unit. Please correct me if I am wrong about this. If you are going to use this high-tech seal in your pump you will have to do one of two things to get the seals on the shaft. You will either have to remove the starter/generator unit or take the front timing gear cover off the engine so as to put the shaft in from the front end of the engine. Are you going to press the impellor off the shaft? If the answer to that question is no, then you will have to press the water pump gear off the shaft to put the new seal in place on the shaft. One cannot cut this seal or you are defeating the purpose of using this new technology in the first place. For what this is worth - using the graphite cord is a very simple and easy way to go PLUS if it is installed correctly it works perfectly. Your A Model uses almost modern technology compared to this setup on a Buick engine. Anyone who tells you that you can do what you want to do here without dealing with the starter/generator unit or the timing gear cover is talking out their backside. It simply cannot be done any other way with a one piece water pump shaft. Been there - done that. It would be nice if it would work some other way but it doesn't.

I hope this has been of some help and/or consideration for you.

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

[tonybuick]

would this last in water you don't think it would wear away aren't they meant to work with oil water pump seals are carbon and ceramic faces which will take the water and heat

[Larry Schramm]

I agree with Terry. I am putting in a new stainless shaft and lip seals in the water pump for my truck. An IMPORTANT NOTE IS that the seals that I chose are 10 times the price that you are looking at in that auction. A much better seal that I have purchased. Not just a lip oil seal.

Here is a link to the seals that I am putting in my truck from McMaster Carr. http://www.mcmaster.com/#13125k92/=wyehwu The seals are black.

I wanted something that has good heat range and is reinforced along with stainless steel spring. Like Terry said, you will need a stainless steel shaft for it to work as the original carbon steel shaft will rust and tear up the seal.

If I get a chance I will post some pictures of my rework.

There is some machining needed for the pump housing to accommodate the new seal.

The machinist that I have been working with does great work and would consider updating your pump if you want.

Just send me a pm and I can get you in touch with him. He has a 1919 E-45 Buick.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[trimacar]

One thing to remember about putting a modern seal on a shaft, they are really designed for "one way" operation, that is, to keep the fluid inside a certain space.

A water pump has two things going on, one, the fluid must be kept in, two, the air must be kept out.

I converted a Pierce Arrow pump to a seal, new shaft as mentioned, then TWO seals, each facing in opposite directions. That way cooling fluid is kept in and the suction of the pump won't draw air into the system (which of course causes foaming and loss of cooling effectiveness and loss of fluid). Seal closest to cooling fluid installed "open" side toward fluid, outer seal installed open side toward air (thus pressure on either side assists in pressing seal to shaft).

[Mark Shaw]

I sold pumps for many years and have dealt with packing, mechanical seals, and even mag-drive pumps to prevent leakage of corrosive or hazardous chemicals.

The bottom line here is that water pump packing is designed to leak very small amounts to cool and lubricate the seal area. Unless you are a show car person who cannot stand any leakage, a little coolant drip shouldn't be much of a problem. Adding a bit of water resistant grease in the packing gland will usually eliminate drips too.

So, I would stay original and just clean up & polish the shaft to allow the packing do it's job.

[Oregon Desert model 45]

Thanks for the advice, I am now better educated about Buick water pumps.

This pump is a 1924 6 cyl pump which does mate up to the Starter Generator unit, and that pump shaft is quite long, about 19" if I recall correctly. I managed to press the drive gear off the front end of the pump with the hydraulic press, but the impeller would not budge and I did not want to risk breaking anything by pushing harder. The only location I was considering for the modern seal was at the rear packing gland, but I hadn't thought much about rust forming right at the seal and tearing it. Replacing the steel shaft with a stainless shaft + modern seal will be a future improvement for this car.

Kevin

BCA # 47712