Guest landtortise Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 (edited) the main factors discussed in those posts are the HB, ICM, CPS and the ECM. There is nothing wrong with the HB I have pulled it and reinspected it and there not a thing wrong with it what came apart was the AC clutch and it has been bypassed. the car will shut down within an hour without even being driven. Just idling in the garage. I guess I'll try a JY ECM and report back. Just to reitterate what I've done. I have replaced the CPS 4 times, ICM 3 times all with the magnavox style which In hindsight was a mistake but I am not gonna trash a new part, CAM sensor twice, TPS twice and connector, Plugs, wires, Harness to the ICM, CPS, CAM sensor with a verified and tested good one, MAF and connector, Cooling fan relay, coil pack cleaned my Cam interrupter magnet, although it is probably in need of being replaced, fuel filter and fuel pump. All parts have been replaced with new off the shelf Lifetime parts. So I am basically down to the ECM being the common denomonator between everything. I may throw a VSS and Coolant temp sensor at it for good meassure. That too me is the only missing puzzle piece as stated. I have preformed every test given here, I have spark when it quits, I have 42 lbs of fuel pressure when it quits, I have voltage from the CPS when it quits. Edited May 13, 2014 by landtortise (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 ... I have preformed every test given here, I have spark when it quits, I have 42 lbs of fuel pressure when it quits, I have voltage from the CPS when it quits.The results of the noid light test were?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 they lit when cranked over just as expected. sometimes dimly other times bright idk if that's how they are supposed to light but yes the noid light lit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mc_Reatta Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Don't waste more money on a speed sensor or coolant sensor.The powertrain control module (AKA engine control module) may be hard to find in stock at a FLAPS.Best deal I could come up with if you can wait a few days for shipping was to order online from Advance Auto parts for ship to home. They have a BWD reman ECM which you can get for $65 + tax using discount code TRT37. Has a whopping $100 core charge so you definitely want to return your core. They also have a Cardone reman PCM for $15 more but it only carries a $15 core charge. But if you return your core that charge doesn't really matter. Unfortunately, in both cases the discount brings the total below the threshold for free shipping so both prices quoted include $10 for shipping. Either one only comes with a 1 year warranty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-a-n-i-e-l Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Did you try cooling the icm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 (edited) MC thanks for the info I may look into that I work part time at oreilly's mostly for the discount and we have one in stock for $78 exchange and no waiting just gotta work it into the budget. My dad lives near a couple of great pick and pull yards And is gonna try and pull me an ECM and mail it down $25 versus $80. He came down Sunday with one out of a 94 PA but it was wrong unfortunately.Daniel I have not had a chance to try cooling the ICM yet. Was planning on it tonight . Edited May 13, 2014 by landtortise (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Well I think I finally figured out my missing puzzle piece. Fired it up tonight and let it run to operating temp then climbed under the dash and tapped the ECM 3 or 4 times and bam dead. Got a brand new gm one coming from rock auto got a smoking deal on it for $56 shipped Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAVES89 Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Glad you figured it out. An ECM was suggested on post #52 and again on post #78. Could have saved you at least a week of grief... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 yes but an ECM is kind of expensive to shotgun at it I wanted to be certain that it was the problem before buying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mc_Reatta Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Well you know what they say about horses and water.Point to take away from this thread. Report all the symptoms not just a few. The speedo symptom wasn't reported till post 51. Once the coolant temp light was added to the list, (post 83 and even after later than that the cooling fan relay clicking), the ECM being the culprit went from a strong possibility to being a sure bet in my book. Piecemealing out all of the symptoms and all of the parts that you had replaced dragged this one out over a month longer than it needed to be.Very glad you have it fixed now. PAs are great cars too. Have an Ultra in my stable and love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasJohn55 Posted May 15, 2014 Share Posted May 15, 2014 It isn't fixed yet, ECM ON ORDER. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 ECM arrived yesterday diconnected the battery and swapped it in changed prom from old one to new one hooked everything back up and now it just cranks no fuel pressure pump won't run. Swapped old ECM back in and it fired right back up any thoughts is there any relearns I need to figure out or did I get a bad ECM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-a-n-i-e-l Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Did you swap the Epsom? It is under the cover with two screws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Where did you get the ECM? What is the part number on it so we can verify you have the right one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 I got it online new from rock auto only numbers on it are 8235 the only differences I noticed is mine had a green plug and this one has an orange one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-a-n-i-e-l Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Maybe your problem is in the wiring ate the connectors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 That doesn't explain why it starts and runs fine with the old ECM except the problems listed above but won't even start with the new ECM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mc_Reatta Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 That's the wrong ECM! It was used up thru 90. In 91 They went to a PCM (Powertrain Control Module) that had a teal green connector. The one you have won't work in a 91. Later on, they went to a PCM with red, white and blue connectors. That's probably the one your Dad mistakenly brought you as you mentioned..You'll need to get the proper ECM. Then swap in your PROM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 You sir are correct didn't know what it went to but a quick interweb search yielded that this is a 77-8253 a1 reman I need a 77-1470 a1 reman guess I'll get in touch with rock auto tomorrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Ready - Fire - Aim! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machiner 55 Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 ...the wiring ate the connectors. I just hate it when this happens.John F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 it wasn't my fault the ecm that showed was wrong my dad ordered the right one the idiots at rock auto sent the wrong one for the application listed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Two final questions. First is there charging fuse or relay for some reason my alternator isn't charging my battery even though the alternator tests good and the battery tests good. second would the alternator not charging cause the transmission not to shift the new ECM is installed what do guys think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mc_Reatta Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Do you still have the wrong ECM installed? (orange connector) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Nope correct teal one new off the shelf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogold99 Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Might check the back of the alternator to see if all wires were reconnected. There usually is one heavy gauge wire that goes on a post, and a few wires in a plastic connector that plugs in on the side or back of the alternator. It is easy to forget to reconnect one or the other during reassembly (don't ask me how I know). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Everything is reconnected. It's weird cuz it was working fine and the next time I started it it wasn't charging Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mc_Reatta Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Is the red charging warning light on? Can you read the trouble codes looking for B410 or see the BCM Data output at BD51 Generator field?Don't see any connection between ECM and the charging circuit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 So I figured it out 15 amp fuse in the relay center now just gotta chase down why my heat control work intermittenly and fix my ac compressor. Log 40 miles on her tonight without issue. Fingers crossed. Again thanks for all the help I do greatly appriciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 so I have made 2 trips to town in the pa (now named gertrude) got a total of 100 miles on the ticker and she hasn't missed a lick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machiner 55 Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 LT,In a nut shell, could you spell out your actual problems and the final fixes to those problems?There were a lot of paths taken during this journey. Lots of false trails and it's hard (for me anyway) to follow what was actually wrong and what fixed them.John F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dan Gibbs Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 I agree with Machiner-John, what was the conclusion? ECM?I just went through this last Dec-Jan with my daily-driver 97 LeSabre. It got veeeery hard to start under 20degF - replaced crank pos sensor (was actually failing), battery (down a cell), alternator (guage reading 15V), fuel press reg, plugs, wires, cleaned IAC, checked spark, fuel injectors, etcetera. Once the car started, it would run to the ends of the earth, literally. Just once it was turned off and left for over two hours, it would be near impossible to start at 20F or below. The only code it set consistenly was "lean to bank 1", P0141 IIRC.Well, the solution ended up being the fuel pump. Of course not before TWO brake lines blew out and left me with no brakes rolling through a normally busy intersection that I was trying to make a right turn at to go to work. I was going to take the car to the repair shop that Saturday, so a $300 repair turned into $700....sheesh.It still boggles my mind how the car ran perfect as far as I wanted to drive it once started and warmed up even when the pump was only putting out around 22-psi. The car never stumbled under heavy acceleration on the highway, never stalled, nothing.Anyway, back to the whole point, I went back to the forums and gave the final report for the next guy with a problem Dan G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Alright so here it is beginning to end . I bought the car in early march as a non runner for a couple hundred bucks had no spark most of the results I found online lead me to believe it was something simple ie CPS ICM ect. Got it home and the first check was to change the CPS when I pulled the HB I found it was broke so I replaced it it started ran I shut it off then no start I pulled the icm and had it tested and it was bad so I replaced it and it started and ran a few then died and wouldn't restart so I discovered that of I messed with the wiring to the CPS or would start. So I pulled and replaced the harness to the ICM CPS and cam sensor it was destroyed. Now the car would start and run so I started driving it put almost a tank of gas thru it then it left my wife stranded 40 miles from home. It acted like and threw the code for a TPS so I replaced it. The. I'd try and drive it I'd get about 30 min or 30 miles and it would shut down. Seemed like it would only do it when hot and low on fuel. So I assumed a fuel pump so I replaced it too. Suggestions on here said a MAF under inspection mine was crack so I replaced it and drove it same symptoms. But I noticed that the speedo would zero and the cooling fans would go wonky and the relay would click. So I after replacing everything else I started looking toward the ECM. A tap test confirmed I replaced the ECM and life has need. Good since. Hope my pain helps someone in the future. Thanks for all the help. I also replaced the cooling fan relay and the coolant sensor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machiner 55 Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 LT,Thank you.John F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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