Stutz Ra Radiotar Cap (archaeological find)archaeologicalLS, I've got a specific question. As a hist

[Guest Voogd]

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I've got a specific question. As a historic journalist I am working on a article about an archaeological find. A Stutz Ra radiator cap which was found on the bottom of a filled in canal in the center of Amsterdam (Netherlands). Could you please tell me wether its a cap from the 1926 - 1928 period? Of from the 1929 -1933 period?

And could you please also tell me what's the source of your knowledge? I hope you can help me out.

With kind regards,

Fanta Voogd - Amsterdam (Netherlands)

[Dave Mellor NJ]

This is from a 1930 at the LeMay museum. A quick google bing search revealed a bunch of these. one source said 1926-33. Some of the bases were different and yours doesn't have one.

[West Peterson]

According to K8096 in another post:

That mascot is from 1926 - 1928, starting in 1929 the RA was held on with two small screws from the bottom. This is one of the most reproduced ornaments of all time. I believe the originals were a zinc die casting. If you shake it & hear loose pieces inside, it's possibly an original.

[Guest Voogd]

I stick to K8096's explanation. Does anybody knows the source of his/her knowledge?

[Ivan Saxton]

I invite correction, because I have never owned an M series or later. Darien Cassidy was responsible for the Stutz Owners' Register, here in Melbourne, reproducing quite a number of these in gunmetal by sand-casting. Some of the fine detail had to be finalised by an engraver; because we just did not have the necessary equipment in the 1960s and 1970s. The Sundial mascot on the L6 and L8 Blackhawk cars was integral with the base (cap), and I am fairly sure that these were diecast. My recollection is that the M series was similarly a diecast Ra integral with the cap.. I think some of the fine detail may have been different on the M series to the earlier AA/BB series type as you show. It is quite possible that some of Darien's excellent gunmetal reproductions were supplied to people who fitted them to reproduction caps. I can put you in touch with Darien if you wish.

[Guest Voogd]

Dear mr. Saxton,

To be honest I don't fully understand what you mean. (Could be my faulty English.) The find surely isn't a reproduction, because it was burried deep in the Amsterdam mud ever since the thirties.

Is Darien Cassidy the same as K8096? If that's what you mean, I would love to get in touch with him. I would like to know all about the two types of Stutz Ra-radiotorcaps (1926-1928 of 1929-1933).

Regards,

Fanta Voogd - Amsterdam

[K8096]

I've never seen a RA cast in one piece with the cap. I believe what you have pictures of is from a 1926-28 Stutz. The 1929 & newer RAs were not cast as one with the cap either. They were held on with with two small screws from the bottom. I'll post a picture tonight. I'm off to work now!

[Guest Voogd]

Great! Thanks.

[Restorer32]

Let's review. Stone Age..from the beginning 'ti about 4000 BC. Bronze Age....4000 BC 'til 1200 BC or so. Iron Age... 1200 BC until 1838. Die Cast Age...began in 1838 with the casting of movable type.

[Rusty_OToole]

Dear mr. Saxton,

To be honest I don't fully understand what you mean. (Could be my faulty English.) The find surely isn't a reproduction, because it was burried deep in the Amsterdam mud ever since the thirties.

Is Darien Cassidy the same as K8096? If that's what you mean, I would love to get in touch with him. I would like to know all about the two types of Stutz Ra-radiotorcaps (1926-1928 of 1929-1933).

Regards,

Fanta Voogd - Amsterdam

Maybe I can help clarify.

The picture you show, is of a radiator mascot used on a Stutz car, 1926 - 1927 - or 1928 model.

K8096, I think, is someone who identified the mascot in a different thread from this.

Darien Cassidy is a Stutz enthusiast from Melbourne Australia who made reproductions of this mascot.

Several people have made reproductions of this mascot over the years. I know of an Englishman who made a business of reproducing rare mascots and selling them as originals in the fifties and sixties. Whether he made any Stutz mascots, I do not know.

Yours may be genuine or it may be a reproduction. I`m with you in thinking it is probably an original, but only an expert could say for sure.

[K8096]

Here's an original untouched 1929-34 Stutz Ra ornament & cap.

[Guest Voogd]

Dear K8096,

Wonderful. I am convinced. Could I possibly mention your (real) name?. And how can I describe you? As 'one of Stutz-specialist in the US'? My article is for a scientific publication, so my editors might ask for the source of my knowledge.

Now I've got another question. Are you just as well informed as it concerns Ford automobiles? Another Amsterdam find is a Ford-wheel. Is it possible to connect it with a specific Ford type of car? And can you see in what period these kind of wheels were made. Thank you verry much for your help.

[sambarn]

I'm not a ford guy but I think it's a '29-'31 Model A wood (artillery-style) wheel.

Edited March 5, 2014 by sambarn (see edit history)

[Guest Voogd]

Thanks!

[Dave Mellor NJ]

I'm not a ford guy but I think it's a '29-'31 Model A wood (artillery-style) wheel.

No pictures came through but all Model A Wheels were wire spoke except for AA trucks. Wood wheels went out with the T.I don't think Voogd's picture has enough to verify what it came from.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Dave Mellor NJ (see edit history)

[sambarn]

Well It has a Ford script hub, five lugs and all the spokes are gone -which leads me to Artillery wheel. If it's not "A" by age and not T by number of lugs (5 not 8), What is it?

[Guest Voogd]

I found newspaper articles about an accident on december 8th 1927 exactly at the location where the hub was found (in a canal). Two cabs hit each other badly and a wheel of one of the cars was torn off.

I understood that Ford made special taxicabs.

Could it have been a cab?

Fanta Voogd - Amsterdam

[sambarn]

That would make it a "T" . Hmmm. All the pics I have found of Model T wheels are eight lug not five. Maybe a new post with the pic and any others- maybe a reverse, and a side would help. It would also be a good place to ask the taxi question. -Sam

[Guest Voogd]

Hello Sam,

Thanks a lot for your help.

I allready started a new post. Someone suggested it's a disc wheel that belonged to a Model AA Truck. That might be a good hunch. (There was also a Model AA in a cab-version, so that fits in with the accident in 1927.)

The name of the new post is: Ford Wheel Twenties.

Maybe it's a good idea to continue the thread there.

PLEASE EVERYBODY WHO'S INTERESTED, HAVE A LOOK AT THE NEW THREAD: "FORD WHEEL TWENTIES".

[Dave Mellor NJ]

I didn't notice the Ford script the first time. That flat hubcap looks like the one on the 28 AA which was a 20" wire wheel. In 29 they changes to a dished disc wheel, the hubcap of which was way different. Here's a TT (1-1/2 ton) wheel, Script cap but different and 6 rivets in the hub.

[Dave Mellor NJ]

This is a 28 AA. Note the hubcap

[Guest Voogd]

Thank you all!

I send an e-mail to Mr. Neil Wilson of the AA Fords Club. He was positive that the cap belonged to a a 1928 AA truck (after March 1928). He wasn't sure about the hub. Meanwhile I found another newspaper article about a truck loosing its front wheel (and driving into the canal) at the location where the wheel was found (july 26th 1930). That might fit in well with the find. I'm trying to find out more about the accident in the police archives. Thanks again!

Fanta Voogd - Amsterdam