llskis Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 (edited) One thing I have noticed in the past G/N at Moline and the past G/Nationals in other years is something shouldbe done to Class 36B. It is by far the class that has the most entries for most of the meets. I believe this class should bebroken down by more years(Add more classes). There was a total of 18 entries in this class; roughly 1/2 going for first place and the otherhalf going for Senior. All the other classes in the 30 or above had very small number of entries; sometimes even onein number. I would assume one of the Judging Guidlines would be to make all classes as fair as possible. Just by lookingat the types of cars in the class one has to wonder what a 61 Chevy Impala has in common with a 1969 Camaro. Itdoes not make sense to me. I am not sure how to take this up with whoever writes the rules/classes in the JudgingGuidelines Book that comes out every year. Perhaps R W Burgess can comment how this should be done. Of course Iwould like more comments from the members on this subject. Thanks in advance-Larry Edited July 4, 2013 by llskis add info (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest billybird Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 just because a person has a muscle car does not mean you must be in that class. An owner could opt for class 27d,e,f, etc. A judge please correct me if i'm wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 llskis,If you have any concern regarding class judging, you should contact the VP of Class Judging. The class assignments don't make as much difference as you think. Under the AACA Judging system, you are not actually competing against the other cars in your class. Each car is judged against the same standard, and the award is earned based on a numeric score. The only influence that other cars in your class have is the 10 point rule, as a car has to be within 10 points of the highest scoring car in its class to received a first. At a Grand National it is a 5 point rule. For Senior Grand National there is no effect, as all cars scoring 390 or more are awarded the Senior Grand National award.The number of cars registering in a particular class change a bit from one meet to another. There are probably some regional differences in what seems to be more commonly shown. The numbers in a particular class are probably fairly random from one meet to the next.billybird,While there are certainly examples of cars that have been occasionally placed in the wrong class, a vehicle should only be eligible to compete in one class. If it meets the criteria for one of the high performance classes, a car should be shown in that class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llskis Posted July 5, 2013 Author Share Posted July 5, 2013 llskis,If you have any concern regarding class judging, you should contact the VP of Class Judging. The class assignments don't make as much difference as you think. Under the AACA Judging system, you are not actually competing against the other cars in your class. Each car is judged against the same standard, and the award is earned based on a numeric score. The only influence that other cars in your class have is the 10 point rule, as a car has to be within 10 points of the highest scoring car in its class to received a first. At a Grand National it is a 5 point rule. For Senior Grand National there is no effect, as all cars scoring 390 or more are awarded the Senior Grand National award.The number of cars registering in a particular class change a bit from one meet to another. There are probably some regional differences in what seems to be more commonly shown. The numbers in a particular class are probably fairly random from one meet to the next.billybird,While there are certainly examples of cars that have been occasionally placed in the wrong class, a vehicle should only be eligible to compete in one class. If it meets the criteria for one of the high performance classes, a car should be shown in that class.Matthew: Thanks for the response. Here is the way I look at it. If there is a super huge class like 36b seems to be at every meet then the chances ofsomeone shown up with a recent -over the top- restoration is far greater than most other classes. In most cases that would bring a score very close toperfect or close to it. Say it scores 97%; so a lot of the cars will clear the hurdle of 380 points but will not come close to the 5 Point rule. Where in a lotof other classes with only 1 or 2 entries they will "skate" in with just a little over the 380 minimun rule. Just seems that some of the classes are far easierto achieve their objectives then 36B.JMHO--Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 I understand your point of view on the issue. There are a number of classes that tend to have a lot of cars that are restored to a very high level. I agree that the High Performance Classes tend to have some really stiff competition. There is no way to make life totally 100% fair and 100% predictable. Feel free to share your concerns with the VP of Class Judging. That is the person who could best answer your question to on such issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llskis Posted July 5, 2013 Author Share Posted July 5, 2013 I understand your point of view on the issue. There are a number of classes that tend to have a lot of cars that are restored to a very high level. I agree that the High Performance Classes tend to have some really stiff competition. There is no way to make life totally 100% fair and 100% predictable. Feel free to share your concerns with the VP of Class Judging. That is the person who could best answer your question to on such issues.Does anybody know if the VP of Class Judging(Hulon McCraw.) reads this forum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 With the volume of email that he receives regarding his AACA Duties, I suspect he would have very little time to read the forum. He can best be contacted through his contact information as found on the AACA homepage:[TABLE=align: left]<tbody sizset="0" sizcache="20" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; line-height: inherit; vertical-align: baseline;">[TR][TD=bgcolor: inherit !important, align: center]<address style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; line-height: inherit; vertical-align: baseline;"> Hulon C. McCrawV.P. - Class Judging101 Dausuel Trail</address><address style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; line-height: inherit; vertical-align: baseline;">Henersonville, NC 28791</address><address style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; line-height: inherit; vertical-align: baseline;">hcmccraw@morrisbb.net</address><address style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; line-height: inherit; vertical-align: baseline;"> </address><address style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; line-height: inherit; vertical-align: baseline;"> </address><address style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; line-height: inherit; vertical-align: baseline;"> </address>[/TD][TD=bgcolor: inherit !important, align: center][/TD][/TR]</tbody>[/TABLE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shop Rat Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 Does anybody know if the VP of Class Judging(Hulon McCraw.) reads this forum?It is my understanding that most of the directors, VPs etc. do not come to the forums. However, some of us have been known, and I am one of them, to contact them and ask their opinion about something and they will answer and we can then put that answer here for them as a quote. But you can contact him yourself and get your specific question answered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llskis Posted July 6, 2013 Author Share Posted July 6, 2013 It is my understanding that most of the directors, VPs etc. do not come to the forums. However, some of us have been known, and I am one of them, to contact them and ask their opinion about something and they will answer and we can then put that answer here for them as a quote. But you can contact him yourself and get your specific question answered.Susan: Thanks for your input. I'm not sure what the proper procedure would be for the Judging Divison to look/revise the Judging Guidline Book. I'msure Hulon would agee logically with my concerns and "see" my point. What I don't understand is it solely up to him to revise the guidelines or is there sometypeof "committee" that does this. Do they even want input from the members?? Thanks-Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 (edited) There is a committee. The VP of Class Judging is the head of the committee and is the contact person for any concerns, suggestions, or other input that any member wishes to provide to the committee. Here is the explanation straight from the Judging Guidelines. The PDF formatting is sort of weird, but this explains it.A. MEMBERSHIP OF THE CLASS JUDGINGCOMMITTEEThe Class Judging Committee is made upof the following AACA members:1. Vice President-Class Judging2. Vice President-Judges Administration(AVP-Class Judging)3. Assistant VP-Judges Admin4. Chairman-Judges Training5. Chairman-Judges Records6. Chairman-HPOF7. Chairman-DPC8. Chairman-CJE9. Chairman-SCC10. Chairman-Race Car Certification11. Chairman-Judges Honor Society12. Chairman-Class Acceptance13. Any other contributing members at thediscretionof the Vice President-ClassJudging.B. FUNCTIONS OF THE CLASS JUDGINGCOMMITTEEThe duties of the Class Judging Committeeare:1. Make a periodic review of vehicleclassification and submit recommendationsto the NationalBoard of Directorsfor therevisionor additionof classes.2. Review applications for inclusion in the listof specified Classic, Prestigeand LimitedProductionand Prototype vehicles andmake recommendationsfor approval tothe NationalBoard of Directors.323 Make recommendationsfor theimprovementof the judging forms andother forms used in class judging.4. Determine when items for deductionshould be added or deletedon thejudging forms and submitsame to theNationalBoard of Directors.5. Maintain a continuing review of allaspects of class judging and makerecommendationsas needed.6. Establish a Judges ProficiencyCommittee from members of the ClassJudging Committee to review theconduct and proficiencyof any memberof the AACA judging system.7. Update the AACA Official JudgingGuidelines to include all appropriaterevisions.8. Review all applications for Nationalmeet chief judges prior to final approvalby Vice President-Class Judging Edited July 6, 2013 by MCHinson Added Judging Guidelines Text (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llskis Posted July 6, 2013 Author Share Posted July 6, 2013 Matthew: Thanks very much for the "procedure" for input. I will in time take this up with Hulon; will let him for now try to catch up onall the request and emails.--Thanks-Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novaman Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Having done all the national meets in 2010 which include places like Tucson, AZ and Cheyenne, WY, Moline, IL, it was an eye opener as what takes place in other areas of the country at national meets. Here on the east coast I'm use to a national meet being several hundred cars to over 1,000 at Hershey. My jaw dropped when I walked into Judges breakfast in Tucson. There were only a handful of tables. When I went to the showfield there were only about 50 vehicles. A local AACA meet here has more cars!! The meets in the Central Division did have better attendance but were still what I consider to be on the small size for a national meet. The reason I mention this is to show the wide range of show sizes and with that comes the factoring; location, who decides to attend which determines the number of vehicles in a class. While the class 36B was large at that meet(s), it may not be that large in comparison to other classes at other meets say on the east coast. Hulon and the committee will look at your input, but I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a change after they look at the class size at several meets nation wide, not just a couple meets in the Central Division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llskis Posted July 9, 2013 Author Share Posted July 9, 2013 (edited) Having done all the national meets in 2010 which include places like Tucson, AZ and Cheyenne, WY, Moline, IL, it was an eye opener as what takes place in other areas of the country at national meets. Here on the east coast I'm use to a national meet being several hundred cars to over 1,000 at Hershey. My jaw dropped when I walked into Judges breakfast in Tucson. There were only a handful of tables. When I went to the showfield there were only about 50 vehicles. A local AACA meet here has more cars!! The meets in the Central Division did have better attendance but were still what I consider to be on the small size for a national meet. The reason I mention this is to show the wide range of show sizes and with that comes the factoring; location, who decides to attend which determines the number of vehicles in a class. While the class 36B was large at that meet(s), it may not be that large in comparison to other classes at other meets say on the east coast. Hulon and the committee will look at your input, but I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a change after they look at the class size at several meets nation wide, not just a couple meets in the Central Division.novaman: Thanks for your input. But I'll still stand with my original statement. Just go back and look at the last several Grand Nationals regardlesswhere they where held. You will find that class 36B is "above and beyond" in number then any other class. It's my opinion that it will even grow larger in the future. If AACA does not what to increase the number of classes surely they can start combining (condensing) other classes that havebecome less popular. I'm a member of NCRS and Bloomington Gold and one of their bylaws is to try to make all classes as fair as possible in relationshipto other classes. Why should some classes have "one" entry(at almost every meet) and "skate in" to their objective and other classes have to fight for every point. Fair is Fair.Just my opinion--Larry Edited July 9, 2013 by llskis Spelling (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
real61ss Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Larry,You are correct in saying that the 36b class has been large in the past GN meets, at least the past two, at last years GN Meet I seem to remember there being about 30 cars in the class. However, that's just the GN meets, this isn't the case at the regular National Meets. In reviewing the class attendance over the past year there just hasn't been that many cars in the class. One show didn't have any cars in 36b, one meet only had two cars in the class and at Hershey, the largest regular event of the year there were only 6 cars going for Jr. and 6 going for Sr. If you average the regular National Meets, there were only 5.5 cars in class 36b, that's not too many cars for a class at a National Meet. The GN meet is a once a year event where cars come from all over the nation to compete, I don't think we had too many cars at Moline and I sure don't think we need to add classes, we have too many now.It doesn't matter how many cars are in the class, large or small, the outcome will be the same. Anyone entering a car in a GN Meet hoping to win a 1st GN award needs to be prepared to score mid 390's because at every GN Meet you can count on a 398-400 point car being in the class. Really, I'd like to see more cars in the class, that shows the interest in the muscle cars. I'll go back to one of my original posts prior to the Moline meet, "the more the merrier" Just my thoughts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llskis Posted July 9, 2013 Author Share Posted July 9, 2013 Tommy: Always like your comments. In this case will just have to agree to "disagree". Yes there will always be a 398/400 Pt. car especially in 36b. I can't say that about all the other classes especially with one entry. I would not want the club members to startselecting classes vs. selecting cars. I looked at a lot of different classes say from class 27 on up and did not see anything in comparisonto class 36b. In fact I thought that the majority of class 36b cars where way "overrestored". Showing my age now but I bought brand newCamaro's in the age bracket and none of them came close from the factory in comparison what a saw that day. This is just my opinionand I respect all other opinions. Still had a great time. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novaman Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Thanks Tommy for the research into the numbers I didn't' have time to do before needing to head to work this morning. You confirmed the point I was trying to make which was not to expect changes due to one or two shows have a large number when the overall average for that class isn't that large.Larry as far as " Why should some classes have "one" entry(at almost every meet) and "skate in" to their objective and other classes have to fight for every point. Fair is Fair." That one car is still playing be the same rules as everyone else. It has to meant the minimum points required and be within the 5 or 10 points of the highest point car. Just being the highest makes it easier. It is always a numbers/odds game. If you had a car that say was a 370-375 36b car. Even though there were a large number as the past couple GN meets, the next one you take it to could be bad weather, the 398+ cars stay in the trailers but you put yours out there you're likely to get the award. OR you could get a different car, one that falls in one of the low perticapent classes, but if you're luck is like mine, that will be the day a 400 point car just happens to show up and you don't get anyway. (I went to one show with a "most in need of restoration" award. Took a '49 Willys Wagon, had no hood, no exhaust, minimum wiring to make it run, no interior, had rust holes. Was beat out by a Model A).Also remember, you're only challenged once by that higher point car as he'll move on and won't be going for the same award until preservation and then the points are meet the minimum. You can also improve your car to make it on of the 400 point cars and "breeze through" as the top dog.There is just no way you can make the classes so that every national meet have the same number of vehicles in each class when you never know who is going to come and with what vehicle until they register for a meet.Biggest thing is go and have fun. Although I judge, you'll NEVER see one of my cars in any class other than HPOF or DPC. Reason for that is I am there to have FUN, the awards is not important to me personally and I've seen too many people get way too bent out of shape over awards, get pissed and quit clubs over that $(insert price) trophy/dust catcher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novaman Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Over restoration gets them no extra points. incorrect IE non-factory options, etc. will get them deductions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llskis Posted July 9, 2013 Author Share Posted July 9, 2013 (edited) Over restoration gets them no extra points. incorrect IE non-factory options, etc. will get them deductions.novaman: You make excellant points that I like very much. But I believe you will see in the future that class 36b will bechanged. Simple logic dictates that. AFA over restoration; here is my take. Judges are only human and can not be blamed.When you "dangle" 9 carriots in front of them and the 10th car is a potatoe. (But car is truely an original in every respect)that car will get the deductions for sure. My car was restored to that matter. Couple of examples are: GM always leftthere rear axles (lightly painted black) out in the yard in the rain/snow. They where put on the car "as is" with surfacerust on them. I have a Camaro bought new with 175 miles on it; yes it has rust underneath just the way it came. Exhaustmanifolds always came with surface rust on them. I do not believe our judges know enough how cars came from the factorybut they do the best they can. They are simply "shocked and awed" when they see these overrestorations. And when aclass like 36b has the above it is more pronouced and exacerbated. Again; just my opinion. Larry Edited July 9, 2013 by llskis (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Larry,I think in another discussion, I urged you to attend a judging school and consider becoming a judge. I would again urge you to do so. In any system people are going to sometimes make mistakes. With that said, i will say that in my experience, judges understand more than you seem to be giving them credit for. In AACA Overrestoration does not get you any extra points over a correctly restored car as it came from the factory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llskis Posted July 9, 2013 Author Share Posted July 9, 2013 Larry,I think in another discussion, I urged you to attend a judging school and consider becoming a judge. I would again urge you to do so. In any system people are going to sometimes make mistakes. With that said, i will say that in my experience, judges understand more than you seem to be giving them credit for. In AACA Overrestoration does not get you any extra points over a correctly restored car as it came from the factory.MCHinson:Again thanks; but you are missing my point completely. I not saying they give the overrestored cars any more points; whatI am saying is that after seeing all these overrestored cars when they see a completely original looking car(not overrestored)that car will get deductions for sure. In their mind they are comparing cars; it only human to do so. I have attended severaljudinging schools.FYI Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 As an experienced judge, I have to disagree with you. In my experience, cars that are restored like they came from the factory don't get inappropriate deductions. Actually most judges that I have judged with tend to comment favorably regarding those cars with a more original looking accurate restoration, as opposed to the more commonly seen over-restored cars.If you don't judge, you don't understand how the process works in the real world. If you have attended judging schools in the past, you should continue to do so and also sign up to judge so you would have a better understanding of the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 To every thing there is a season. Years ago it was common to see swarms of Model A Fords competing at an AACA show. One year at Hershey I counted over 100 Model A's. Then we saw large classes of Tbirds, then '57 Chevies, then Mustangs. Hard as it is to believe, in a few years the muscle car classes will settle down in numbers also. Just give it time and enjoy. As an experienced judge (and restorer) I am well able to keep over restored and "from the factory" cars separated in my head and I think most experienced judges can do the same. Of course some cars came from the factory with surface rust on the chassis but likely some also came with no rust on the chassis and I suspect the designers and engineers would have preferred that the cars reach the dealers with no rust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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