Plug lead order on a '24/'25 DB

[Guest occrj]

Hi all,

Quick question:

Just to make sure the car is set up right as it is, the firing order is 1342, and (magneto ignition) the leads when looking at the bakelite end cover of the Eisemann mag, also exit in that order, left to right, pointing to plugs 1,3,4,2? Plug 1 being nearest the radiator, and 4 nearest the bulkhead? Just making sure I read the instruction book correctly

thanks R

[Guest 1930]

I figured someone else would chime in that has hands on experience with this but since no-one has I will say that the way you are reading it is how I have read it as well.

Sure would like to see some pictures of your engine with the mag, its not very often that we get to see this set-up

[Guest occrj]

Hi Jason,

I removed the mag yesterday, here are some photos of the breaker assembly removal fyi

Here the end cover and "distributor plate" (cap) are off, and the assembly on the bench.

The centre bolt holds the base plate assembly in place, getting it off took a few attempts as it had been put in very tightly. Anyway, it came off in the end! The rotating advance and retard lever is also off now, it simply slides off once the end cover has been removed.

I'd be interested to know what spares, if any, are available for the Eisemann G4 (edition 2) mag?

With it apart it was easy to clean up the points surfaces and wipe over the base plate to remove dirt etc. The points gap had closed up, so on re-assembly it was all set up correctly (0.012"). Plus with the mag off it was easy to clean the side that's usually against the engine (it was quite oily), same for the side of the block.

Hope they're of interest.

Prior to removing the mag I spent a lot of time sorting the advance and retard mechanism, this improved running although it still felt a bit down on power and sometimes stuttered under load. Re-setting and cleaning the points should have helped - fingers crossed!

Out and about yesterday on a test run, prior to mag removal:

rgds, RJ

Edited May 28, 2013 by occrj
typo! (see edit history)

[Guest 1930]

Very interesting, I hope someday I have the opportunity to get into this myself first hand. Thanks

[Guest occrj]

It's certainly different although in some ways I'd have preferred a coil and distributor setup, I understand them better

I'm surprised that the proximity of the mag to the exhaust manifold doesn't cause problems, with ref to heat, I'm thinking about making a simple heatshield.

RJ

[R.White]

Those photos are excellent and clearly show the mag set up. You are correct; No.1 is nearest the rad.

As you know this is somewhat different to my car which has coil ignition. I just wish I had paid more attention to my Dad when he explained how it worked. He had a lot of experience with motor bikes and bi planes which used magnetos. I wouldn't mind if you could outline the principles for me.

Thanks.

Ray.

[Guest 1930]

Those photos are excellent and clearly show the mag set up. You are correct; No.1 is nearest the rad.

As you know this is somewhat different to my car which has coil ignition. I just wish I had paid more attention to my Dad when he explained how it worked. He had a lot of experience with motor bikes and bi planes which used magnetos. I wouldn't mind if you could outline the principles for me.

Thanks.

Ray.

I second every word of this

[R.White]

I am hopeful that others may be able to confirm or refute my understanding of the facts but from what I can remember, the magneto was developed before the self starter became generally available. Hitherto,internal combustion engined cars were all started by the handle and early lighting sets were acetylene. The electric starter obviously required a battery and with it the lighting could be changed to electric. With battery technology in it's infancy, it was perhaps understandable that the crank was retained as unlike a car with coil ignition, one equipped with a magneto does not need a battery to operate.

Dodge Brothers were, I think, forward thinking in adopting their reliable starter/generator with 12 volt electrics and by combining it with the tried and trusted magneto they led the way.

Ray.

[Guest bull]

I am hopeful that others may be able to confirm or refute my understanding of the facts but from what I can remember, the magneto was developed before the self starter became generally available. Hitherto,internal combustion engined cars were all started by the handle and early lighting sets were acetylene. The electric starter obviously required a battery and with it the lighting could be changed to electric. With battery technology in it's infancy, it was perhaps understandable that the crank was retained as unlike a car with coil ignition, one equipped with a magneto does not need a battery to operate.

Dodge Brothers were, I think, forward thinking in adopting their reliable starter/generator with 12 volt electrics and by combining it with the tried and trusted magneto they led the way.

Ray.

My '23 has a magneto and so far (crossed fingers) it's been fine. All I have done is remove the cap occassionally and wipe the contact bakelite insulator area clean of a black residue. Thanks for those terrific photo's they will help me heaps whenever I need to clean mine up. I will have a look tomorrow at the gap. cheers

[Guest occrj]

An update on the mag story:

The other day I removed the magneto, and today took it to be checked over with a specialist. An interesting couple of hours were spent analysing the output from the mag on his test rig.

Firstly, the mag was attached to an electric motor (once a suitable adapter had been created) and spun up, with the sparks monitored at various RPMs. All looked good, bright healthy sparks across the board.

To try and more closely match the working environment when the mag is on the car, situated close below the big hot cast iron manifold, the mag was popped into an oven and warmed through for about an hour.

It was then re-connected to the rig and re-tested. The results couldn't have been more different. Number 1 barely sparked at all, 3 was weak throughout, and initially 4 was out of order also. Only 2 seemed to have any consistency to its spark. The rig couldn't replicate the engine working under load, or shaking about with bumps in the road etc, but it was enough to confirm that there are problems to be looked into caused by heat.

As the mag temperature dropped, the performance crept back up again so that by the time it had cooled off almost entirely, the sparks were almost back to normal. This matches what I'd experienced in driving the car, especially with the car warm, stopped at the side of the road for a minute or so, then heading off down the road again when the stuttering engine was at its worst, evidently heat build-up has been causing one or more problems within the mag.

It'll now be stripped down and the armature and condenser put through their own hot and cold trials, to see if the fault(s) lie with either of them. Brushes, leads, slip ring and so on will be looked at later.

RJ

Added: photo of the mag and tester in action, note no.4 spark on the tester jumping the (oversize) gap.

Edited June 11, 2013 by occrj
photo added (see edit history)

[R.White]

This is the first post I have seen where it is explained how a mag is tested. Your contact sounds as if he knows his onions.

Best of luck.

Ray.

[Guest 1930]

Very interesting, I wish that I had the opportunity to have witnessed the testing, thanks for the update!

[cahartley]

As the coil and condenser are in the armature there is no other place the trouble can be.

The REAL trouble is you HAVE to get the points rotor end off of the armature in order to replace the condenser or even sub a known good condenser.

The other problem is condenser and coil trouble symptoms are identical.......

[Guest occrj]

The mag man phoned this evening, he's had it apart. He tested the armature and condenser, separately, both hot and cold, and couldn't get either to fail in the manner that the complete mag did yesterday. This suggests that something else, perhaps in the breaker assembly, brushes, or even leads, is giving out.

More news as it happens

Interestingly, we spotted three letters scratched onto a gear beneath the main cap yesterday, but couldn't work out what they meant. He found the same three letters on the armature, with a date of May 1970, presumably the date it was last rewound, and the letters could be the initials of the person who did it!

RJ

[Guest occrj]

I went over to the mag man the other day to find out the latest, and collect the offending item. He discovered that the HT leads, while looking ok in-situ, were - when removed - evidently not HT leads, but rather some industrial-looking (very thick) cables, with minimal insulation when compared to the normal type of cable. With correct cables fitted temporarily, the unit performed much better hot and cold on the rig, I'm told.

The plan therefore was to try it out on the car again and see how it behaved, now that it's been apart, tested, re-soldered and - as of this morning - fitted with replacement cables and connectors.

I took it out for a few miles today, and it was ok for the first stage of the trip but after a while, once fully up to temperature, evidence of cutting out re-appeared. A quick roadside peak under the bonnet confirmed that the mag and HT leads were getting very hot, too hot to touch, situated as they are just an inch or so below the piping hot exhaust manifold.

With the car back home again, I set to creating an aluminium shield to protect the mag and leads from the worst of the heat. Although a little rough and ready, 30 mins or so saw something suitable knocked together and installed. I also lagged the HT leads for the majority of their runs with insulation (exhaust wrap).

Another test run followed, and early signs are that perhaps things are a little better, certainly it drove ok and didn't appear to suffer the usual heat soak after pulling over for a few minutes and setting off again. The test was interrupted slightly when we (junior and I) coasted to a halt, out of fuel. Evidently my predictions of anticipated range vs fuel poured in were somewhat amiss. With fuel back in the required locations, we drove home again.

The combination of the strip-down, new leads, and heat shielding do appear to have improved matters, but I need to do another good run before I'll be content with the current setup. I also plan to insulate the fuel pipes on the other side of the engine, just in case there are vapourisation issues over there, before another run out.

Incidentally, I bought a second mag for it the other day, also an Eisemann but a slightly different model - GS4 as opposed to G4, a spare that came with some Dodges that the vendor shipped from Oz some years ago. Its overall size is smaller than the G4 I have on the car, but the base is the same so will fit if needs be and it all lines up at the drive end. Being lower, there's more clearance between it and the manifold so it may end up being used on the car full time, once it too has been checked over...

R

[gundog99]

My 1926 nineteenth edition Dodge manual gives the firing order for GS4-11 as 1-3-4-2. I will send you a scan of the Magneto system.

[Guest occrj]

Took the car out to a gathering 6-7 miles away today, it performed better but after running on clear roads, after a couple of hold-ups and traffic lights, presumably with the underbonnet temps increasing, there were a few signs of splutters and backfires once more. The return trip home later in the day went ok, although it still feels a little down on power on gentle inclines, and when I switched off there was an impressive backfire out of the exhaust. Timing out a little perhaps?

RJ

[R.White]

Is it possible that your timing is 180 degrees out? This is sometimes found to be the trouble with a coil ignition distributor but I don't know about mag engines.

Ray.

[Pete K.]

Are you positive you don't have a vacuum leak somewhere either around manifold or exhaust pipe connection? The backfire at shut-down sure sounds to me like there is a leak of air getting in.

[Guest occrj]

It's possible Pete, would a leak at the exhaust manifold (which I still have) possibly cause a backfire? I put a new gasket on the carb mounting a while back, as the original was a mess. The pipework on the vacuum fuel supply *looks* ok, but I'll have another check tomorrow.

thanks, RJ

[Pete K.]

Yes indeed, A manifold leak will produce a backfire with the right conditions. Those right conditions are quite abundant too.

[RAH]

RJ, One thing you should be aware of is on cars with magneto the plug gap is closer like .020 on Mag vs. .025 / .030 on coil type. Good Luck. Rodger "Dodger"

[Guest occrj]

I managed to find a way to get the exhaust manifold to seal against the block, and it ran very nicely on the (admittedly very local) trip to a VSCC meeting yesterday evening. Curiously the ports in the manifold don't quite line up correctly with those on the side of the block, this is why I've had real problems getting it to seal. If anything the port at #1 almost looks slightly oval in the manifold.

I now need to do a longer run and see how the old girl's doing. If anyone can point me to where I might buy a replacement advance/retard lever, that'd be useful thanks

rgds, RJ

[R.White]

Hi RJ Can you please elaborate on how you have managed to match up the exhaust ports?

Ray.

[cahartley]

You can get what you need from Branson Enterprises, Machesney Park, Illinoise....... ....... Branson Enterprises

I trust you are using WIRE WIRE spark plug wire for all the leads?

OOPS.......I see you mean the lever for the CAR......not the magneto.......

By the way. It was Robert Bosch who invented the impulse magneto whereby at hand cranking speed the magneto drive coupling winds up a spring which gets tripped off by "ramps" inside the impulse cup which then spins the armature over very quickly giving a hot HOT spark just by "tipping the engine over compression" instead of having to flip the crank like a crazy person.......

Edited July 6, 2013 by cahartley (see edit history)

[Guest occrj]

Yes, I'm using proper copper-cored HT leads.

Ray,

I've tried many different ways to get the manifold to seal, using various gaskets as we've discussed before. The current arrangement - which may or may not work longer term - requires 8 of the silver circular exhaust gaskets, 54mm diameter if I remember right (the larger ones anyway). Firstly, four are placed into the recesses in the side of the block, this brings the sealing level just above flush. I then offered up the manifold so that it's a few mm from the engine, but before tightening the nuts fully, slid four more gaskets - one per port - into the gaps, ie doubling them up.

Each of these later four gaskets can be slid around slightly into their final position, proud of the block just, so that they line up correctly with the manifold. Tightening the lot compresses the outer and inner gaskets together and ensures that there is gasket material lined up to the edges of all four manifold ports, something that just doesn't happen if I use the normal gasket arrangement. It'll be interesting to see how long this idea works for, I may need to experiment further with the types of gasket used, but so far this is the only method that's eradicated the annoying "chuff" I've had until now. Maybe not very elegant, but fingers crossed it might work. The manifold as a result is a few mm further out from the block than usual, but this hasn't affected the exhaust:downpipe joint, or the mag linkage that hangs off the manifold.

Did I mention that the old girl won "Best overall car" at a recent show? No, I'm not sure how either!!!

The improvised heat shield is definitely lowering the heat build-up on the mag and the HT leads, which can't be a bad thing.

RJ

[R.White]

Congratulations for the unexpected prize win! You must have been polishing the car a lot!

Your solution for the exhaust manifold leak sounds intriguing; I will try something similar myself.

I wonder if mag overheating was a problem back in the day. It seems an odd design.

Ray.

[Guest occrj]

Congratulations for the unexpected prize win! You must have been polishing the car a lot!

...

Ray.

Thanks Ray! I gave it a quick wipe over with the leather, that was it. I think being the only car there to have a potted history printed out and placed in the screen, got people interested to be honest, it certainly wasn't the car's condition that did it

RJ

[R.White]

You are fortunate if the history has followed the car. I have been unable to find out much about my car. I have checked with the Australian Dodge Brothers club but it has slipped under their radar. Can you give us a "potted history" of your car, please.

Ray.

[Guest occrj]

You are fortunate if the history has followed the car. I have been unable to find out much about my car. I have checked with the Australian Dodge Brothers club but it has slipped under their radar. Can you give us a "potted history" of your car, please.

Ray.

Sorry, what I meant to say was a potted history of the "type", ie shipped as a kit to Oz, bodied there and sold at Waymouth Motor Co., then arriving in the UK via NZ in more recent times. I included a drawing I found of the original dealership too.

RJ

[Guest occrj]

Just to keep this thread up-to-date, the old girl was taken to a local gathering in town recently - the oldest car there I think.

And a few days later, was taken to the local VSCC gathering.

Revisions to the shielding of the HT components seem to be bearing fruit. Today we went in to town to give it a reasonable run, in very hot (for us) weather. The combination of rolling along for a few miles, followed by stop-start traffic, parking up, travelling a short distance, stopping again twice, then driving home, I hoped would test it quite well especially as the under-bonnet temps get quite high (but read ok on the gauge).

It drove to my folks' place pretty well - the first of the stops. There it was allowed to cool down for 20 mins or so, while we had a brew.

We then did a spot of shopping - the water on the tarmac wasn't from us!

The misfire didn't make itself known at all during the trip. It rolls along on the level pretty well, although on inclines still feels a little down on power. I had wondered if the brakes were binding a little, but they don't seem to be.

A look at the timing, and undertaking compression tests will take place quite soon I think. It's getting better but it's not right yet....

Ray, I made an interesting discovery the other day. When I ran the 1934 Morris Minor, it came with a smart Boyce Motometer screwed into the radiator cap. As I didn't like the idea of leaving it parked anywhere with this in place, in case it got stolen, a friend donated a spare plain chrome filler cap - one that wasn't very eye-catching and was unlikely to be pinched. That got used whenever I left the car unattended in car parks etc. To my great surprise, I found that the threads on that blank cap seem to match those of the Dodge's filler cap/thermometer. I used it today while going into and parking up in town, instead of the original "dog bone" DB cap and gauge.

RJ

[Pete K.]

Those are great pictures of your Dodge. I hope to get mine on the road shortly. (not near as nice). I too, swap out my rad cap on my little Ford "A" pickup. It's an original "Wiggler" cap, made by the Wiggler Co., Buffalo, New York. I found it in a barn many, many years ago. I don't believe I have a spare "plain Jane" cap for the Dodge.

[Guest occrj]

Those are great pictures of your Dodge. I hope to get mine on the road shortly. (not near as nice). I too, swap out my rad cap on my little Ford "A" pickup. It's an original "Wiggler" cap, made by the Wiggler Co., Buffalo, New York. I found it in a barn many, many years ago. I don't believe I have a spare "plain Jane" cap for the Dodge.

Thanks Pete, the photos flatter the paint to a certain extent, but it looks tidy enough for me

[Guest 1930]

Hello RJ, might seem like a silly question to some but I believe that technically a magneto equipped engine does not require a battery, is that correct? I have never owned a mag car but it is my understanding that a hand crank is all thats needed. We have another member here ( Bobs1916 ) I think who has a military truck that if I remember correctly does not have a starter generator on his vehicle.

He had a post going recently about his truck and I think he showed pictures of this lack of starter/gen and some sort of block off plate, if anyone knows how to perform a search for that thread and can locate it for me I would appreciate it.

[Guest occrj]

In theory it doesn't need a battery to run, if you were hand cranking the engine that is, although I think the dynamo/charging system would also need disconnecting. You can get a spark from a mag just by flicking it over on the bench. I know I was told not to fire up my late uncle's Velocette motorcycle until I'd connected up a battery, that's on a mag also.

RJ

[R.White]

I am hopeful that others may be able to confirm or refute my understanding of the facts but from what I can remember, the magneto was developed before the self starter became generally available. Hitherto,internal combustion engined cars were all started by the handle and early lighting sets were acetylene. The electric starter obviously required a battery and with it the lighting could be changed to electric. With battery technology in it's infancy, it was perhaps understandable that the crank was retained as unlike a car with coil ignition, one equipped with a magneto does not need a battery to operate.

Dodge Brothers were, I think, forward thinking in adopting their reliable starter/generator with 12 volt electrics and by combining it with the tried and trusted magneto they led the way.

Ray.

I posted this a while back. Incidentally, the ignition and charging circuits are separate (or should be.)

Edited July 13, 2013 by R.White (see edit history)

[Guest 1930]

Thanks guys, I need to figure out where ( best place ) to post it but going thru some early Graham stuff one of the chassis was mentioned as being avail without battery or starter generator and this had me be-fuddled until I remembered Bobs1917 post about his truck not being equipped either which is something that I am now going to go back and review.

[R.White]

Hi Jason. If it helps at all, I think of early vehicles as having no starter motor or electric lighting and therefore no need for a charging system or a battery to store electrical power. The magneto just supplies sparks for the ignition and that's all it does. As I mentioned, the ignition and charging circuits are two separate entities. With a truck, cost would have perhaps made a basic set up attractive to commercial buyers long after it had become out dated with passenger cars.

Just a suggestion.

Ray.

[Guest occrj]

Hi all, I took the car over to visit friends of mine who own a 1928 garage and keep it full of interesting stuff. While there I took a few photos, here's one the others are at the link that follows. It ran quite well on the journey there and back, the heat shield is definitely protecting the mag from the manifold's heat well. I do wonder if the cylinder compressions are a bit low as it slows down more than I'd expect on gentle inclines, but overall it's better than it has been to date.

View topic - 1925 Dodge Four tourer

rgds, RJ.

[Guest 1930]

Cool pictures and good thread, do you feel that you will get o the bottom of the mag problem, there has to be an answer on why it behaves as it does, there must be some breakdown somewhere and tough to believe that it cannot be found or pinpointed.

Heat shield was a great idea but the cars were not originally equipped with the shield and yet they ran fine so I would be wanting to know where the problem lies and making the repair if possible.