Cruising down the road then...nothing - cranks but wont run

Reattatude · July 25, 2012

Hello Forum long time no see! 89 Reatta seldom driven I took it out and it was running fine and then just died, service engine light etc all came on. Now when I try to start the car it will run for just a second and then quite nosily sputter choke wheeze (not backfire) and die. Sure would like to fix this meself if possible - where do I begin?

handmedownreatta · July 25, 2012

tap on the ecm.if that fixes it change it.

Ronnie · July 25, 2012

Hello Forum long time no see! 89 Reatta seldom driven I took it out and it was running fine and then just died, service engine light etc all came on. Now when I try to start the car it will run for just a second and then quite nosily sputter choke wheeze (not backfire) and die. Sure would like to fix this meself if possible - where do I begin?

The best place to start is to check the fuel pressure if you have a gauge.

Reattatude · July 25, 2012

tap on the ecm.if that fixes it change it.

With a Hammer? Lol. Letsee just where is the ECM now...

The best place to start is to check the fuel pressure if you have a gauge.

I thought it might be fuel related - dont have that gauge though. I can get one maybe...Where do you check the pressure if you have a gauge?

Reattatude · July 26, 2012

Charged the battery and tried to start it and there is no pretense of turning over now - that makes me think its used up the gasoline

that was in the lines and nothing else is coming through.

Ronnie · July 26, 2012

You should hear the fuel pump run momentarily when you turn the key to run. Do you hear it? If not the problem could be with the fuel pump relay. To find out if the problem is the fuel pump connect 12 volts to the fuel pump test connector. It should run as long as you have 12 volts applied to the connector.

Fuel Pump Prime (Test) Connector Location

July 26, 2012

fuel injection pump tester (cheap): Shopping Cart

hook it up to what's called a "schrader valve" close to the middle of this pic:

pressure should be around 42 psi.

i went thru this a few months ago. was hoping for a clogged fuel filter, but it was the fuel pump...

i've always tried to start with the "easiest" fixes to a problem, and rule them out before going to the "hard" ones with a "BFH".

padgett · July 26, 2012

I just pour about 1/2 oz of gasoline into the plenium through the octopus (plastic device on top of manifold with vaccuum lines just behind throttle plate) and crank. If nothing happens it is ignition. If sputters and dies it is fuel.

For me it is usually ignition. If so I just replace the whole ignition module and coils with a Delco.

Machiner 55 · July 28, 2012

These are pretty good for checking to see if you have spark. On sale online at Harbor Freight for $4.99 - $5.97. Just unplug any plug wire from the coil pack and connect this between the wire end and the coil terminal. Turn the engine over while looking through the clear plastic part. If you see it flash, you have spark. If the flashing is erratic, intermittent or nonexistent it's probably your ignition module.

Edited July 28, 2012 by Machiner 55
Add a statement. (see edit history)

July 28, 2012

Check your vacuum lines! You never know...

July 28, 2012

I've worked on several series 3800s before, when it would die driving down the road, always seemed to be the crank position sensor. Fuel pumps seemed to die when you drove it, stopped at the store and then try to restart it.

But with my Reatta, it did something strange. It did die going down the road with the fuel level a hair over half a tank. If I kept the fuel level above that, it would be fine. I pulled the tank and the pulsator was leaking. I replaced the fuel pump anyways and replaced the pulsator with the rubber hose supplied in the kit. So far so good.

Edited July 28, 2012 by astro355 (see edit history)

July 28, 2012

I don't know if your having the same problem with your Reatta as mine but I will explain my problem... I have a 90 coupe. It was running great up till last Sunday... Parked it. Tried to start it Monday morning and ran rough...spuddering... blue and black smoke coming out the back... once car warmed up to normal idle (around 800 RPM's), the car would shut off...everytime I would start the car, it would run for a sec and shut down. Still starting with the blue and black smoke. I checked my oil and saw the oil level was almost double. There was/is gas mixed in with the oil. I verified I was getting spark out of the ECM. I changed the spark plugs and the oil, the car would stay on but was still very rough. I bought and changed the Mass Air flow sensor.... Now the car purrs when starting up fresh... smooth as long as you keep the RPM's around 1000....when car warms up and gets to around 800 RPM's, the car idled rough almost to point of stalling...crank up to 1000 RPM's and the engine runs smooth. I now ordered a new Idle sensor from my parts place. Should come in Monday. Im hoping this fixes the last remaining problem. Check to see if you have gas leaking into the oil... has anyone ever experienced that before? This was my first time with any car.... and I did not think it was possible - Steve

Reattatude · July 28, 2012

Hmm that sounds pretty unusual with gas in the oil. I havent gotten very far into diagnosing the problem yet...Padgett's test is where i would like to start but I am not sure where the plenum or octopus he is mentioning is located. I dont pour gas just any old place without knowing exactly what I am doing. Anybody?

I don't know if your having the same problem with your Reatta as mine but I will explain my problem... I have a 90 coupe. It was running great up till last Sunday... Parked it. Tried to start it Monday morning and ran rough...spuddering... blue and black smoke coming out the back... once car warmed up to normal idle (around 800 RPM's), the car would shut off...everytime I would start the car, it would run for a sec and shut down. Still starting with the blue and black smoke. I checked my oil and saw the oil level was almost double. There was/is gas mixed in with the oil. I verified I was getting spark out of the ECM. I changed the spark plugs and the oil, the car would stay on but was still very rough. I bought and changed the Mass Air flow sensor.... Now the car purrs when starting up fresh... smooth as long as you keep the RPM's around 1000....when car warms up and gets to around 800 RPM's, the car idled rough almost to point of stalling...crank up to 1000 RPM's and the engine runs smooth. I now ordered a new Idle sensor from my parts place. Should come in Monday. Im hoping this fixes the last remaining problem. Check to see if you have gas leaking into the oil... has anyone ever experienced that before? This was my first time with any car.... and I did not think it was possible - Steve

July 28, 2012

yeah I never heard of gas in theoil before either except on small engines (lawnmowers). I think Padgett is talking about pouring gas in the tubes before the fuel injectors... I think there is an opening (screw cap).... Not totally sure.

Reattatude · July 28, 2012

padgett - Draw me a picture... I know where the throttle body is. Is the plenum part of the injector rail? thanks

I just pour about 1/2 oz of gasoline into the plenium through the octopus (plastic device on top of manifold with vaccuum lines just behind throttle plate) and crank. If nothing happens it is ignition. If sputters and dies it is fuel.
For me it is usually ignition. If so I just replace the whole ignition module and coils with a Delco.

Ronnie · July 28, 2012

The throttle body is what the hose, shown in the first photo below, connects to.

The plenum is is the large aluminum part the throttle body bolts to shown in the second photo. The plenum is normally partially hidden by a plastic cover.

I would just remove the hose shown in the photo and squirt some wd-40 (use the plastic tube that comes with it) into the port in the throttle body while and assistant is trying to start the engine. The engine should try to run on wd-40... not as well as gasoline but much safer.

Reattatude · July 29, 2012

Didnt see anything loose in a visual inspection - was hoping for something easy like that!

Check your vacuum lines! You never know...

July 30, 2012

Your situation sounds very similiar to mine. My wife and I attended the national Buick meet in Concord, NC. While driving it in Concord, the engine would want to sputter then go into a wheezing sound then die. I had to wait maybe up to 30-45 minutes before it would want to "pop" and then it would start running. When we left Concord, we were driving up the interstate and the engine just decided to stop running at 65 mph. I let it sit for 35 minutes in 103 degree heat. I finally got it running with no appreciable power, I pulled off at the next exit, made to a grocery store parking lot but never got a "pop" out of it after that. Turned out that the fuel pump finally gave out.

1st check fuse 7, it serves the fuel pump and also the fuel injectors. If fuse 7 is good then connect +12 volts to the green connector, (fuel pump test connector), hanging by the cruise control module, this will apply 12 volts directly to the fuel pump forcing it to run without the key in the ON position. Normally this will make the fuel pump to run until you disconnect the 12 volts. If it runs sporatically then it indicates the fuel pump is on its last leg. The fuel pump should maintain 40 lbs of pressure and to meausre you would need to remove the 12 volts to the green connector then remove the schrader valve located on the fuel rail and screw on a pressure guage. Then reconnect the 12 volts to the green connector and monitor the pressure, if you have minimal pressure under 25 lbs then it could be your fuel pump failing or a possibility of your fuel filter becoming clogged. But the fuel pump should be around 40 lbs of pressure. This will confirm if the fuel pump is good.

If your fuel pressure is good, then its time to look for the electrical portion of the engine. If fuse 7 is good, then I would start checking out the ICM (ignition control module) mounted directly under the ignition coil pack. I have had my ICM go bad and it can cause all spark plugs not to receive spark or even 2 or 4 not to supply spark but usually in groups of 2.

You might want to disconnect the electrical connector to your MAF sensor and see if it starts, this could indicate that the MAF sensor is bad which could be sending bad info to the ECM and the ECM not allowing the engine to run.

Check these things and see if you can get it to start running. If not get back to us for deeper troubleshooting.

Good Luck

padgett · July 30, 2012

Guess it is more of a quadrapus but I usually pull the larger line, connect a hose on the end of a funnel, and pour about 1/2 oz. of gas in.

Be gentle, the plastic can be brittle.

Ronnie · July 30, 2012

This thread is starting to have all the elements that would make a good "Cranks but won't run" tutorial. I've been wanting to do one for my website for a long time. Maybe someone will make a post that can be all inclusive as to what steps need to be taken when the engine will not run at all. I will be happy to add it to my website.

Reattatude · July 31, 2012

The throttle body is what the hose, shown in the first photo below, connects to.
The plenum is is the large aluminum part the throttle body bolts to shown in the second photo. The plenum is normally partially hidden by a plastic cover.

Gasoline into plenum (2 oz.) Negative

You might want to disconnect the electrical connector to your MAF sensor and see if it starts, this could indicate that the MAF sensor is bad which could be sending bad info to the ECM and the ECM not allowing the engine to run.
Good Luck

MAF Sensor disconnect - Negative

After putting gas into the plenum I didnt notice any changes after about a half dozen attempts it did not

seem to be getting fuel. Then I tried the MAF sensor, no change. Then I swapped relays moving the fuel relay

to what I believe was the ABS relay and at that point the car would run a bit and die, usually with a lurch or

a jolt so I dont know if it just took a while for the gas to get into the manifold or not.

I need to do the fuel pump test next as so far I havent really pinpointed anything besides it is still capable of running

however short of a time. I have a 12v lead acid cell around here someplace...

padgett · July 31, 2012

"Gasoline into plenum (2 oz.) Negative" Then you are not getting fire. " car would run a bit and die, usually with a lurch" do have fire. These two statements are conflicting. Maybe you have two problems. At this point I'd swap the ignition module for a Delco.

BTW if fuel pump is working properly then after turning key on and depressing the schrader, it should spurt about 2 feet up (wear eye protection).

August 10, 2012

Hello Forum long time no see! 89 Reatta seldom driven I took it out and it was running fine and then just died, service engine light etc all came on. Now when I try to start the car it will run for just a second and then quite nosily sputter choke wheeze (not backfire) and die. Sure would like to fix this meself if possible - where do I begin?

Had the exact same issue with my 90 turned out to be the crank possition sensor.

August 10, 2012

MY 88 REATTA BACK ON ROAD, RAN TILL GOT HOT, WOULD SHUT DOWN, ABOUT HOUR LATER COOLED DOWN WOULD START AND RUN TILL GOT HOT AGAIN AN SHUT OFF.

FOUND THE ICM AND COIL PACK THE PROBLEM.

TOOK THE ICM & COIL PACK OFF MY 96 CAMARO 3800 & HAS BEEN RUNNING FINE.

THX 4 ALL U GUYS DO ON HERE.

Reattatude · August 13, 2012

12V hot only? I have yet to look for the little connector but I dont have many easy options left. As for listening for the fuel pump

when turning the key - too many relays clicking and stuff to really hear anything.

You should hear the fuel pump run momentarily when you turn the key to run. Do you hear it? If not the problem could be with the fuel pump relay. To find out if the problem is the fuel pump connect 12 volts to the fuel pump test connector. It should run as long as you have 12 volts applied to the connector.
Fuel Pump Prime (Test) Connector Location

August 13, 2012

yeah, 12V hot only with a "jump wire".

even with all the clicks, etc. you should be able to hear the hum of the fuel pump for a few seconds when the key is in the on position.

like said above- try the schrader valve after the key on for a few seconds. turn the key off, and treat the valve like you would letting air out of a tire. (be careful). if you don't get a big spray of gas out of it, it's the fuel pump, a totally clogged filter or similar. as also said above, easier to use a fuel pump pressure tester. should be around 42 psi.

hope this helps....

Ronnie · August 13, 2012

12V hot only? I have yet to look for the little connector but I dont have many easy options left. As for listening for the fuel pump
when turning the key - too many relays clicking and stuff to really hear anything.

This may help:

Fuel Pump Prime (Test) Connector Location - Reatta Owners Journal

Reattatude · August 23, 2012

I just pour about 1/2 oz of gasoline into the plenium through the octopus (plastic device on top of manifold with vaccuum lines just behind throttle plate) and crank. If nothing happens it is ignition. If sputters and dies it is fuel.
For me it is usually ignition. If so I just replace the whole ignition module and coils with a Delco.

Had the exact same issue with my 90 turned out to be the crank possition sensor.

This may help:
Fuel Pump Prime (Test) Connector Location - Reatta Owners Journal

I located the Pump test connector - not hard to find but was tucked under some sheathing

Looks (sounds) like the Fuel Pump is okay, least its running and sounded normal. Wonder if I should

still check the pressure??

That leaves me with fuel filter (not likely), Crank Sensor, ECM? or some electronic bit, eh?

Will the car crank and still have a bad ignition module or whatever?

August 23, 2012

yes, check the fuel pressure!!! my fuel pump also worked, but at too low of a pressure. don't rule out the fuel filter either - after the fuel pressure check. (around $20 bucks for a "fuel injection pump tester" at harbor freight - may be less if on sale or with coupons).

if you rule the fuel system out, then go from there. except for coils and ICM, i had to replace the crank balancer and the crank sensor...

SeanR · August 23, 2012

Had the exact same issue with my 90 turned out to be the crank possition sensor.

I vote for Crank Position Sensor as well. It's a delicate cheesy part that's critical to making the car fire and run. A fuel pump likely wouldnt just die like that. Plus Reattatude already ruled out it's responding to prime. I too, had a CPS go out right after replacing the Harmonic Balancer. It's a cheap $20 part, difficult to replace, but not as difficult or messy as a fuel pump.

Read this and especially PAGE 3. Part 1 -GM 3.8L Ignition Module Test and Crank Sensor Test (3X, 18X)

Basic step is to determine if you are getting ANY spark while turning over. If not, go for the CPS replacement.

August 23, 2012

just what i went thru with mine the first month after i purchased her (late march '12). started with dying on the way home from town, and a tow home. she started the next day for a short trip around the neighborhood. but a few days later she wouldn't start at all.

i replaced the crankshaft balancer and the crank position sensor. (the balancer needed replacing as it was missing rubber). after that, i had the same "stop & no go" situation. the fuel pump always worked - but using a new fuel pump tester, it went all over the place - from zero to 38 or so. most of the time it was around 23psi. "correct" is around 42psi.

so, i dropped the tank and put in a new fuel pump. no problems since!

i guess what i'm trying to say is: again, check your fuel pressure to make sure the pump is functioning properly! i had to replace my crank balancer anyway and, with info obtained on the forum, replaced the CPS "while i was there".

neither repair was "fun" to do, but if you only need one of those repairs to get yours running again, the better.

i also made sure the coils/ignition control module were ok after the needed crank repairs were complete.

just my $0.02...

Reattatude · August 24, 2012

I vote for Crank Position Sensor as well. It's a delicate cheesy part that's critical to making the car fire and run. A fuel pump likely wouldnt just die like that. Plus Reattatude already ruled out it's responding to prime. I too, had a CPS go out right after replacing the Harmonic Balancer. It's a cheap $20 part, difficult to replace, but not as difficult or messy as a fuel pump.
Read this and especially PAGE 3. Part 1 -GM 3.8L Ignition Module Test and Crank Sensor Test (3X, 18X)
Basic step is to determine if you are getting ANY spark while turning over. If not, go for the CPS replacement.

just what i went thru with mine the first month after i purchased her (late march '12). started with dying on the way home from town, and a tow home. she started the next day for a short trip around the neighborhood. but a few days later she wouldn't start at all.
I replaced the crankshaft balancer and the crank position sensor. (the balancer needed replacing as it was missing rubber). after that, i had the same "stop & no go" situation. the fuel pump always worked - but using a new fuel pump tester, it went all over the place - from zero to 38 or so. most of the time it was around 23psi. "correct" is around 42psi.
so, i dropped the tank and put in a new fuel pump. no problems since!
i guess what i'm trying to say is: again, check your fuel pressure to make sure the pump is functioning properly! i had to replace my crank balancer anyway and, with info obtained on the forum, replaced the CPS "while i was there".
neither repair was "fun" to do, but if you only need one of those repairs to get yours running again, the better.
i also made sure the coils/ignition control module were ok after the needed crank repairs were complete.
just my $0.02...

Thanks guys - all good advice and until I test that fuel psi I dont feel Ive "cleared" the pump as the problem.

Since the 89's have the CRT I thought I might as well check the diagnostics, it cant hurt. But I dont have a manual so does anybody

know if the trouble codes are posted online someplace? You got em on your site, ronnie?

I hate to say I will probably end up taking to the local garage if it requires a lot of dismantling. lol.

August 24, 2012

here's what i think you're looking for:

Repair Tips, Tutorials & Information - Reatta Owners Journal

you really should pick up a "factory service manual". Ronnie's site is great and has helped me much more than the FSM, since it was written basically for GM/Buick mechanics, but using both kind of "fills in the blanks"... i really think some of the procedures in the FSM the crank balancer and sensor for example, are accurate, but also raise labor costs to the victim - i mean "customer".

EDIT: i would think any mechanic familiar with GM fuel pumps could handle it. but the crank sensor would need to know about these older vehicles...

Edited August 24, 2012 by Corvanti
add'l info (see edit history)

SeanR · August 24, 2012

Ground the plug wire while turning over and see if any sparks are jumping to ground. If not, do the electrical tests from page on that link I gave above. I took a long wire, and ran it from a plug wire up to the windshield wiper arm and didnt see any sparks while I was cranking. It was doing nothing but a dead turnover, so I knew it was electrical which ended up being the CPS.

Machiner 55 · August 24, 2012

[h=2]These work well for checking spark.

[/h]

These are pretty good for checking to see if you have spark. On sale online at Harbor Freight for $4.99 - $5.97. Just unplug any plug wire from the coil pack and connect this between the wire end and the coil terminal. Turn the engine over while looking through the clear plastic part. If you see it flash, you have spark. If the flashing is erratic, intermittent or nonexistent it's probably your ignition module.

Reattatude · August 26, 2012

Turn the engine over while looking through the clear plastic part.

That wire is too short to be able to do that - needs two people one to crank the other to observe.

So I have to get my wife to help - wish me Luck!

August 29, 2012

TRY REPLACEING THE (ICM) IGNITION CONTROL MODULE AND COILS. MY 88 REATTA WOULD RUN TILL HOT THEN SHUT DOWN TILL COOLED OFF THEN WOULD RESTART.

Reattatude · September 13, 2012

This may help:
Fuel Pump Prime (Test) Connector Location - Reatta Owners Journal

yes, check the fuel pressure!!! my fuel pump also worked, but at too low of a pressure. don't rule out the fuel filter either - after the fuel pressure check. (around $20 bucks for a "fuel injection pump tester" at harbor freight - may be less if on sale or with coupons).
if you rule the fuel system out, then go from there. except for coils and ICM, i had to replace the crank balancer and the crank sensor...

I vote for Crank Position Sensor as well. It's a delicate cheesy part that's critical to making the car fire and run. A fuel pump likely wouldnt just die like that. Plus Reattatude already ruled out it's responding to prime. I too, had a CPS go out right after replacing the Harmonic Balancer. It's a cheap $20 part, difficult to replace, but not as difficult or messy as a fuel pump.
Read this and especially PAGE 3. Part 1 -GM 3.8L Ignition Module Test and Crank Sensor Test (3X, 18X)
Basic step is to determine if you are getting ANY spark while turning over. If not, go for the CPS replacement.

Checked for fire with one o' them cheep HB testers - no fire. Bad Crank senser. Fixed! Thanks guys

Machiner 55 · September 13, 2012

Turn the engine over while looking through the clear plastic part.
That wire is too short to be able to do that - needs two people one to crank the other to observe.
So I have to get my wife to help - wish me Luck!

Yah, I just re-read your post here. Your wife is good but a remote starter switch is better, maybe, maybe even if you had another plug wire handy to use like an extension, maybe.

Oh, and just what exactly is an HB tester?

Edited September 13, 2012 by Machiner 55
Add Oh... (see edit history)

Reattatude · September 13, 2012

Oh, and just what exactly is an HB tester?

Harbor Brieght of course!

Yah, I just re-read your post here. Your wife is good but a remote starter switch is better, maybe, maybe even if you had another plug wire handy to use like an extension, maybe.
Oh, and just what exactly is an HB tester?

Cruising down the road then...nothing - cranks but wont run

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