1926 Wiper Motor Info Needed!

[R.White]

I once had to resort to fitting a vacuum wiper(TEX) upside down because there was insufficient space to clear the roof above it. Could this be why the motor in Jason's post appears like this? or is there some other reason?

Ray

[Guest 1930]

Something else to add, I found today and I quote..........Since March of 1921 with serial # 572802 hand operated windshield wipers had been standard equipment, then beginning with serial no a444657 in Oct 1925 Trico automatic air windshield wipers were furnished............Commercial cars saw changes ( model or design ) at the approx. same time as the autos did as far as I have read so this information would pertain to any model but was specified or intended as written for the commercial cars.

Again I am curious to see what reference Bill was using above in an earlier post.

I also notice that it uses the term standard equipment which leads me to think that there was maybe an upgrade and again I would assume that that would imply a vacuum unit

[Texacola]

Jason..my '27 series (9/26) commercial car has no wiper motor (never did) its just a lever connected directly to the wiper arm and hand operated....can't wait for rain!

[Guest 1930]

Thanks Bill, Post a picture of that if you like when you have a chance, might be if you look at it again you may see some mounting positions where there was once a wiper motor other than the hand operated deal that is there now.

Pot metal cases have a tendency of disintegrating so anything is possible as to why you have a hand operated lever there. Maybe it has always been there like you say, either way it makes for an interesting picture and maybe a good lesson.

I am going to try and confirm or disprove with some other sources what I mentioned above ..........Since March of 1921 with serial # 572802 hand operated windshield wipers had been standard equipment, then beginning with serial no A444657 in Oct 1925 Trico automatic air windshield wipers were furnished.

No matter what any book says or what any vehicles show all any of us are doing is guessing and hopefully having fun ( I know I am ) Unless we were there when these were built and followed it around all these years we can only have fun and take our best stabs.

Edited April 8, 2012 by 1930 (see edit history)

[R.White]

Bill,

I expect you have seen this but I wondered what date you would put on it and if it would be suitable for our car's motors? It is a nice repro part.

FOLBERTH WIPER MOTOR REGULATOR KNOB TAG | eBay

[Pete K.]

Here is a picture of page 10 in an original "Book Of Information, Dodge Brothers Motor vehicles", September 1926, Eighteenth Edition, showing the hand operated wiper in a closed car.

[Machinist_Bill]

Bill,

I expect you have seen this but I wondered what date you would put on it and if it would be suitable for our car's motors? It is a nice repro part.

Ray, as stated in an earlier post, I would put that from 1922-1925. I have done an exhaustive search of court records to find the month of settlement with Trico. I have not found out when Trico put their name on the castings either. This has been a real challenge!

[R.White]

Hi Bill,

thanks for your patience with me; if I had been paying attention, I would have seen that dating.

I think, however, that I may have something to add to the debate. If you look again at the photos that you posted at the beginning, there is a single hole in the frame (above the three for the motor). This would appear to be in the correct position for a manually operated wiper, as is shown in the Book of information picture as posted by Pete. It shows the lever mounted in the FRAME - with the window OPEN.

I had originally dismissed the picture when I looked in my own book because it is an artist's impression; which is never as reliable as a photo, but on reflection I think it is possibly correct. This means that Texacola could be right but Jason is too! There could have been an option for either manual or vacuum up to quite late (at least '27) but as to the finer details of your research; you have made real progress so please don't give up on it!

Ray

[Guest 1930]

Here is a picture of page 10 in an original "Book Of Information, Dodge Brothers Motor vehicles", September 1926, Eighteenth Edition, showing the hand operated wiper in a closed car.

Thank-you for that Pete

[Texacola]

Jason.... forgot about the pic in the owners manual (I have the 9/26 18th edition).That is what I have. The split windshield is different on a commercial car but the hand wiper is the same.

[Guest 1930]

Jason.... forgot about the pic in the owners manual (I have the 9/26 18th edition).That is what I have. The split windshield is different on a commercial car but the hand wiper is the same.

Thanks, I guess the old sayin is true about not believing everything you read :mad:

[MikeC5]

I posted to the general forum regarding a cylindrical vacuum wiper I'm trying to restore if anyone is interested... http://forums.aaca.org/f169/eveready-vacuum-wiper-motor-338060.html

[MikeC5]

I'll bring up an old thread here... I recently located and purchased a working Folberth vacuum motor. Interestingly, it does have the correct mount hole spacing to match holes in my windshield frame but because they are not symmetric about the wiper shaft, it mounts upside down (vacuum port to right). This is without using any bracket. I suppose I could make up a bracket if I could find a photo of how it should mount.

[MikeC5]

Forgot pics...

Also, aside from painting the outside or drenching in WD-40 is there anything else I can do to prevent this from disintegrating like most apparently do?

[Pete K.]

A good coat of paint and your daily prayers. This is why pot metal is so darned cursed. I've been dealing with that stuff for more years than I can remember with the likes of my other venture--antique amusement machines and jukeboxes. You are lucky you even have that nice wiper motor in one piece in 2013!!!! Best, Pete.

[Guest 1930]

That looks too be in great shape so I would not be overly concerned, you should try and however keep it out of direct sunlight as much as possible, I have some pot metal parts that look as good as they day they were probably made because they were stored away from the heat of the direct sunlight. Do this and it will prob. outlast both of us.

[R.White]

I fully understand how you might want to keep everything correct and in period but in reality, the vacuum wiper was in my opinion never a very good idea. I have a new (old stock) one on my Austin and it is hopeless on hills; Derbyshire has a lot of hills! If the plan is to stick with the vacuum wiper one trick is to make up a reservoir canister. It can be hidden from view if you wish. An antique Ford I used to own had one (I think from new) and it helped even out the wiper speed discrepancy. If you already know the down side of these wipers then that's fine. I only mention it because by coincidence I got the electric one on my Dodge working today. Something else that didn't work. Even the wiper arm fell off!!

Ray.

[MikeC5]

Oh I do know how vacuum wipers work (or don't work when you need them most). A relative had an '49 Chevy pickup when I was a kid (mid 60s) and I remember well how the wipers would slow down to a crawl when you started moving and speed back up when you stopped. Even at 5 years old I knew this didn't make sense... But I like the novelty and 'form factor' of this unit. I think it blocks less of your view since it isn't too much wider than the windshield frame (compared to the half moon Trico). Since it will be quite a while before I get around to doing the top, I don't plan to do much driving in the rain... Is it the UV rays or the heat absorbed (or both) that shortens the life of pot metal? Maybe I should paint it white to reflect light?

[Guest 1930]

In my opinion both the UV and the heat but thats just my opinion based on dealing with these old parts

[MikeC5]

Maybe I'll fabricate a heat shield and seal it up with nitrogen gas...

[Pete K.]

Ok Let's not get crazy with the heat now!! PLease explain this, you guys about the sun, UV rays, etc... on pot metal. On many old cars I've owned, let's take just the ones from the 20's & '30's; I've removed pot metal door handles that have been out in the sun and weather for decades to the point the plating is all but gone- None were swollen and cracked. some were snapped off, but the part of the handle that's been INSIDE the door panels was swollen, and cracks apparent, with nice chrome still on most of that section of the handles. Hmmmm. ALSO, many of my antique jukeboxes that I restore from the 1930's & 40's which uses an abundance of pot metal for the outer trim, from top to bottom and has been exposed to decades of bright sunlight, 99.9% is not decayed. BUT! I found a table top 10 cent, non-electric arcade machine that looked great from the outside, but when I opened it, (no light inside, mind you), the pot metal gears and levers were so far gone, they looked like a box of Ritz Crackers after being run over by a 1925 Dodge. SO... I THINK the pot metal decay problem is not heat or sun exposure at all. It may be the "Intergranular corrosion" of the piece itself, as it also depends on the metallurgical makeup of the pot metal manufacturer. There are definitely better grades of pot metal. Some "junker" machines I've hauled to the dump had to be broken up first, whereas I could sometimes crush pieces of pot metal with my bare hand, (boy, I feel like Hercules!), others I've smacked with a hammer and couldn't bust 'em!

[Guest 1930]

Ok Let's not get crazy with the heat now!! PLease explain this, you guys about the sun, UV rays, etc... on pot metal. On many old cars I've owned, let's take just the ones from the 20's & '30's; I've removed pot metal door handles that have been out in the sun and weather for decades to the point the plating is all but gone- None were swollen and cracked. some were snapped off, but the part of the handle that's been INSIDE the door panels was swollen, and cracks apparent, with nice chrome still on most of that section of the handles. Hmmmm. ALSO, many of my antique jukeboxes that I restore from the 1930's & 40's which uses an abundance of pot metal for the outer trim, from top to bottom and has been exposed to decades of bright sunlight, 99.9% is not decayed. BUT! I found a table top 10 cent, non-electric arcade machine that looked great from the outside, but when I opened it, (no light inside, mind you), the pot metal gears and levers were so far gone, they looked like a box of Ritz Crackers after being run over by a 1925 Dodge. SO... I THINK the pot metal decay problem is not heat or sun exposure at all. It may be the "Intergranular corrosion" of the piece itself, as it also depends on the metallurgical makeup of the pot metal manufacturer. There are definitely better grades of pot metal. Some "junker" machines I've hauled to the dump had to be broken up first, whereas I could sometimes crush pieces of pot metal with my bare hand, (boy, I feel like Hercules!), others I've smacked with a hammer and couldn't bust 'em!

Just as an instance and I wish that I had all the answers D.B had their own foundries where they manufactured many of their own parts, obviously there were outside sources for much of the material and their were also manufacturers for many of the parts.

D.B also had their own labs where they would test incoming materials to make sure that they were receiving what they were paying for, I do not know their schedule for testing incoming material. There were different grades of material obviously for what was required to pass their stipulations.

Much of their casting for lesser important parts meaning non structural minor parts were more than likely subject to less rigorous testing, I have read that much of this casting was done with materials swept up off the floor and just added back into the slurry of molten metal. I am sure you realize what happens when you have two un-like metals bound together over time, same problem with many of these parts.

I have read that at some point in late 27/28ish there was a noticeable improvement begun with these parts and pieces throughout the automotive industry because of the recognition of mixing these metals and the detrimental affect it was having to the parts being cast with it. I do not know what exactly was changed within the material recipe but I do know that something significant was found so as too steer many manufacturers completely away from its use. Maybe it no longer became as profitable since they were in some way regulated on the material composition.

I would guess that the parts we see now that are still in good condition are pot-metal that were cast in their purest form from whatever material was originally dedicated to the manufacture of said parts, ( uncontaminated ) I would guess that the parts that are literally falling apart in our hands have some of the debris that was thrown in the batter from the machine shop floor where all those brass screws were turned.

As mentioned by the time the 30s rolled around metallurgy had advanced at about the same rate as the automobile and foundries were pretty well aware of what affects mixing these materials had too one another.

Point in case was the trouble Budd was having with the earliest stampings of body panels and the changes that were necessitated to the composition of same materials being used to get these more intricate stampings ( over time ) to work. Look as well at the issues Budd and D.B factory were having at welding these early dis-similar metals together and again imagine the changes that had to be made to the materials and lastly look at the issues that once again presented themselves when the attempt was made to manufacture the Victory six unibody.

I would suggest that the manufacturers of the jukeboxes mentioned had prob. a pretty good handle on what they were pouring into their molds and any degradation of parts is prob. occurring due to dis-regard of workmanship.

Edited July 2, 2013 by 1930 (see edit history)

[MikeC5]

It certainly sounds plausible Jason. I hope that's the case and explains why this one has survived... Isn't pot metal mainly zinc?

[R.White]

Pot metal - Wikipedia brought to you by Orange....and Ray:D Edited July 2, 2013 by R.White (see edit history)