Using this forum to push Ebay sales

[Guest]

I notice that there are a number of people listing items they have for sale on our buy/sell forum, but <B>NOT</B> actually offering them for sale. They just list them there and say look for them on Ebay.<P>My feeling is that the buy/sell section should be limited to items actually for sale [or wanted] and not to hype stuff being auctioned on Ebay.<P>Does this bother anyone else or is it just me?<P>Opinions please. ~ hvs

[Guest]

i agree with you 100% hvs lets remove the list and ban them for life!!!!

[fordee9r (Ron Springstead)]

Howard, as happens many times, I agree with you to a point. If an item is offered for sale on the DF, it should be for sale not just someone trying to steer people to his own auction. On the otherhand, I posted that I am looking for an overdrive actuator cable for my Chrysler. If someone were to reply to my post stating that he saw one on eBay, that would be fine with me and don't think it would be inappropriate. Using the DF the way you stated is definitely wrong and such posts should be removed along with others that are just free commercial ads.

[Guest]

Howard I also agree. One of the other forums I visit has a frequent poster whose sig includes this-Ebay, the place for crap you can't or won't sell in person.

[Tom Deering]

It's a changing world.<BR>Distasteful as this merchandising method may be to some of us; it will have to run it's course. I have always found the commercial aspects of this hobby to be unprofessional and lacking in good taste and common courtesy. In another thread, NOSGM points out some of the negative aspects of the swap meet method of merchandising. This on-line auction thing can certainly alleviate a lot of aggravation for the seller. Auctions have always impressed me as a circuitous way of exchanging goods that is seldom cost-effective for either the buyer or the seller. The on-line auction is no better for the buyer.<P> I will have to defer to the masses who do like this method of merchandising and ask the sellers to put a link to the item in the auction site. Today there was a seller who had a number of threads that only listed the 10 digit item numbers. That has to be a new record for ineffective marketing. Who is going to commit a 10 digit number to memory or even bother to transcribe the numbers onto a sheet of paper? <P> Another commercial usage make that abuse, of this site is a guy in the Pacific Northwest who must be a broker or some other kind of intermediary, who advertises cars for sale that are invariably located elsewhere in the country. This guys ads attract my attention because his prices are ALWAYS 100% to 200% above market value! Now there is a blatant abuse of computer resources. <P> Apparently we are expected to monitor our own conduct on the DF without intervention or oversight. As long as this operating practice remains in effect; there will be some who will abuse the freedom afforded by this medium. <P> Tom

[NOSGM]

HVS-<BR> I do sell on ebay, but I have never posted on this sight to inform members of an ongoing auction. I have, however, offered items for sale to members on the Buy/Sell forum to give them a chance to purchase the item before I have put it on ebay. Guess what...The only responses I got where from dealers looking for a very nice item for very little money, and they have every right to do that. Having said that- I don't understand the problem you have as stated in your original post. If a member is looking for a particular part, I think that they are being done a service by informing them of it's availability on ebay. Contrary to your statement, it IS for sale, but to the highest bidder, and no one is forcing them to bid on the item. Why should they miss out on the oportunity to buy the part they are looking for? Sure, it is to the sellers advantage because the more bidders the higher the price, but, if you follow ebay regularly as I do, you will see that with a few exceptions most items sell for exactly what they are worth and sometimes less. The Buy/Sell forum is a place to hook members up with the parts they are looking for, and any way to help them broaden their search is a good thing. <P>I'm sure my post yesterday on the Hershey Spaces thread sparked this post, and I suspect that you see the direction that flea markets are going and you don't like it. I understand that feeling, but I also understand that is has past the point of no return....like it or not, places like ebay are the future. Just as with a flea market you can tell who is dishonest, and by asking the right questions, you can know the condition of a part over the Internet just as thoroughly as if you were holding it in your hand. <P>I recognize many names on this forum from ebay IDs etc., and I have even sold items to some of you (my ebay ID is not NOSGM). You have left me positive feedback and have been happy with the parts and accessories that you purchased, and judging from your past purchases and number of feedbacks, you will continue to use it as a valuable resorce. How about hearing from some of you on this subject?

[Ron Green]

I for one am glad there is a Ebay. Nobody forces you to over bid on an item, as there are enough idiots willing to pay 3 times a items worth. Supply and demand as they say.<P>I have found various parts and items automotive related on Ebay that walking Carlisle, Hershey and a few other swap meets just could not be found. <P>The time saving is the best thing about Ebay if you are a working stiff. It allows you to not have to spend a lot of hard earned vacation days and money travling and walking miles for nothing. <P>I do still enjoy the swap meets but these legs are getting older and my patience shorter looking for parts especially when to many vendors sell craft items and non car related junk! Just my 2 cents.

[Guest]

I for one don't mind if there is a reference to some other location like ebay in an advertisement. If I'm sufficiently interested in something, I'll hunt it down. If I see that the advert on AACA 'for sale' redirects me somewhere and I'm not particularly interested, I'll drop it. <P>It seems like it is the hopeful seller that loses out by not presenting his goods in an attractive, saleable fashion. In the case of these recent ebay ads, he loses 80% or more of his audience by being lazy. That doesn't bother me.

[Guest]

Obviously I struck a nerve on both sides of the queation. That is good, because my intent was to get the subject discussed out in the open. Now a few responses to the input so far.<P>fordee9r ~ I agree that if someone alerts you to an ebay source in response to a wanted ad you posted, it is a good thing. I'm all for that.<P>NOSGM ~ Don't flatter yourself. Your post had nothing to do with my mine. My post resulted entirely from the number of posts appearing on the buy/sell section directing people to ebay, while never having offered the item for sale on the AACA buy/sell section.<P>To several of you who defend the use of ebay ~ I am not against ebay. It is the using of the AACA forum as a leader to ebay and to promote ebay sales that disturbs me. It seems that some of you have become rather defensive of the ebay sales route, when that was not the issue I raised. Go back and reread the original post. <P><B>I QUESTIONED THE PROPRIETY OF USING THE AACA FORUM AS AN ADVERTISING MEDIUM FOR ITEMS OFFERED ONLY ON EBAY BUT NOT OFFERED FOR SALE ON THE FORUM BUY/SELL SECTION.</B><P>Finally - Yes, the world is changing. But must we all be expected to accept everything that is out there merely because it is there? <P>Let's try to keep this discussion to the question raised and not go on about the merits of ebay sales. Yes, they can be very useful, but is the AACA forum the place to hype them. Further input please.<P>hvs

[Dave@Moon]

True Howard, but aren't you also wasting time walking past those carney barkers at Hershey, not to mention the private parking spaces and TY vendors? <P>The price we pay for living in heaven!

[Guest]

As long as its in the buy/sell section does it really make a difference?<P>Peter

[Guest]

Peter ~ That's what I am trying to find out. <P>Dave ~ Those carney barkers selling gyp tools really aren't supposed to be there at all, according to the rules. But then, who enforces rules. <P>Parked cars and empty spaces? That is being beaten about on another thread. ~hvs<p>[ 03-22-2002: Message edited by: hvs ]

[ted sweet]

unless there is a rule against it or a proposed rule,why are we going over it?

[Guest]

Because like Mount Everest, it is there.<P>I never said this was a major crisis. I just thought it was worth discussing. It really matters very little to me personally as I rarely go into the buy/sell section.<P>But there appears to be a number of people for it and against it, so what is wrong with a little discussion. It doesn't seem like there is anything earth shaking going on the Forum at the moment, so at least it has gotten some of us talking about something different. ~ hvs<P>PS: NOSGM ~ Where did VCCA come into this. Is one of us on the wrong page? <p>[ 03-22-2002: Message edited by: hvs ]

[Rick Hoover]

To save a bunch of repeating, I liked and agree with the way fordee9r and BillP put it. That pretty well sums up how I feel about this issue.<P>HVS, I also liked your response to Dave on the carney barkers at Hershey and who enforces the rules. Howard, the last time I saw that happen, it was you, going on 15 years ago! That I would like to see get started again. <P>Rick

[NOSGM]

HVS-<BR> Consider it edited, but you knew what I meant.<p>[ 03-22-2002: Message edited by: NOSGM ]

[ronbarn]

Rick, you are referring to the "Rat Patrol" where National Directors and Hershey Region Members would be paired up to police the flea market. The good part was that we had a chance to do some quickie looking in the comfort of a golf cart. The bad part was dealing with some of the more obnoxious vendors. The best part is we got to wear this neat ball cap which made us stand out like a sore thumb (still got one). Policing is a grand idea in theory, but a real pain and time consumer to implement. <P>As for eBay, I have not sold but have made several purchases, all at what I considered a reasonable price (or would not have won the bid).<P>As or the imputs to the buy/sell, what if we required that the item be identified along with the eBay number? No identification and the DF item gets edited away. Now if that seems to satisfy our users, who will step up and help "patrol" the bur/sell section?

[Guest]

Howard, I may have the eBay feedback record of DF members, and I agree with you 100%! If you see something on eBay that a DF member wants EMAIL HIM, don't post it for all to see.Both sites are great, don't mix them.

[fordee9r (Ron Springstead)]

Some things I dislike on the AACA DF... UNREGISTERED USERS bitching about how the DF is run. UNREGISTERED USERS posting items for sale. It's sort of like "psst buddy, wanna buy a watch?". Finally, UNREGISTERED USERS offering goods and/or services that merely want to link you to another website.. eBay included. The common thread here is "UNREGISTERED USER". When I see that listing, my first reaction is "What's this guy trying to hide?". He obviously does not want to reveal any sort of identity or be available by e-mail.<P>My experiences have been that you can buy cars and parts from fellow hobbiests at a fair price and the seller didn't make a killing and the buyer didn't have to sell the farm to make the purchase. The seller was happy to get a fair price for the item and help another hobbiest with his or hers project. At the same time, the hobby is loaded with vultures who are only interested in making a buck!<P>This AACA DF is a great place for TRUE hobbiests to exchange thoughts, questions, items for sale or wanted in the interest of pursuing this great hobby. If your only interest is to squeeze the maximum profit from the sale of an item (eBay auctions included), we don't need you here and I think most of us have made it clear that we don't want you here. Please answer our requests by going elsewhere to search for you "Big Bucks". Thanks...

[Dave@Moon]

While we're on the subject, sort of.....<P>Has anyone ever bought a car on eBay? <P>I see plenty of cars being sold through eBay. There are many thousands listed (3177 "Collector Cars" as I write this). Many are very precisely described (notice that this does <B>not</B> suggest or even infer accuracy), but also many more are hardly described at all. Still people bid on them.<P>I find it very risky to use a site that, in effect, requires the signing of a purchase contract with the merchandise sight-unseen when the item is as large, complex, expensive and potentially troublesome as a car. Buying a car sight unseen through a <I>Hemmings</I> or <I>Cars & Parts</I> ad is likewise quite risky, but at least you can have intimate contact with the seller on a prolonged period first. Usually the give-and-take is more involved than the typical eBay scenario.<P>Parts-yes, books-yes, other inexpensive items-yes. But a whole car? <P>There are even people using eBay to list their homes for sale! This must be a very expensive ad to list, so there should be some hope of a sale. There are around 300 houses currently listed (sorry Howard, none in WY!). 8 houses have sold on eBay in the last month, with between 1 and 102 bids each ($5K-$175K). Some of these listing are timeshares, but they're definately not the majority and none of the 8 houses sold were timeshares. <P>I understand about the escrow option for large sales (which really only guarentees delivery), and how to evaluate seller feedback. But when you're talking this kind of coin, isn't there a huge risk?<P>Has anybody taken this plunge? Good or bad?<p>[ 03-22-2002: Message edited by: Dave@Moon ]

[Guest]

Busy little thread isn't it? It has been on here for less than 24 hours and look at the number and variety of responses <P>As stated previously, my purpose was to get a discussion going on the subject and it looks like I succeeded. Lots of us have had our say and we will never agree on the subject, BUT it certainly livened things up a bit didn't it. Certainly we have all learned something on the subject from the responses of our fellow DFers.<P>Now, what is the feeling on Father Ron's idea. Any comments? ~ hvs

[Guest HeyPop]

As much as I agree with you, I don't think we can really do more than just express an opinion. Unfortunately like everything else on the 'Information Highway' it all has to do with freedom of speech and the inability to sit and filter out every piece of unwanted mail and hype that come down the road. We can't stop that anymore than we could limit the use of the site to just members. We can 'suggest' they make available here anything they have available anywhere else but bottom line to them is where they get the most $$$.

[NEW1966]

America <P>The Land Of The Free, The Home Of The Brave!<P>Isn't it the Greatest? Freedom........<P>Greg....NEW1966

[NOSGM]

I bought an $8000 truck on ebay last April that I'm very happy with, but I'm probably not the person you wanted to hear that from.<P>

[Guest stude8]

For the E-bay discussion:<BR>Every system seems to have an avenue for abuse, but I don't mind a headsup note about something auto related on E-bay even if it is by the anonymous seller.<BR>To the one who didn't want to commit 10 digit figures to memory or paper, simply highlight the sequence, Control-C it, switch screens to E-bay search and Control-Z. In a few seconds you will know if it is of value to pursue or not. I appreciate the guy that gives the item number, it speeds the weeding process.<BR>Stude8

[NOSGM]

HVS-<BR> I understood your question and I answered it. If it helps a AACA member find the part he wants, what difference should it make to you? Even if someone is "Hyping" sales, who cares! Nobody is twisting anyone's arm to bid on anything, or even to visit the site. The last time I looked the AACA was a non-profit organization. How does referencing ebay in a Buy/Sell ad hurt the AACA?<p>[ 03-22-2002: Message edited by: NOSGM ]

[Dave@Moon]

I've sold dozens of items on eBay, mostly doubles and discards from my library plus some unneeded parts. (If the IRS is listening, I've bought <I>hundreds</I> more.) I've never once cited any of my own auctions on the forum. I agree fully with Howard. <P>Using the forum to promote items on another site that effectively promote themselves is really more wasted breath than anything else. I find it analogous to those tool barkers that make Carlisle and Hershey a little less pleasent, especially if there right accross from your booth! How many times have you stood in one place at a swap meet and had to listen to <I>"All tools half-price"</I> repeated ad nauseum, or heard the marvels of some dubious glass treatment repeatedly heralded over a mini-P.A. <P>(My favorite is the guy who sells a compound that makes water smoothly sheet off of glass. It's shown with Rain-X's beading action side-by-side on a mirror. The problem, the mirror is flat, reflects/doubles the beads, and there's no wind; so the Rain-X side looks terrible--completely unlike the way it works in reality. In marketing that's sometimes known as "The Big Lie", making the illogical part of a side-by-side comparison so obvious that people don't notice or question it.)<P>(And doesn't untreated glass sheet water anyway? )<P>I personally tune those types out automatically anyway. If you let them bother you you'll miss the guy next door selling the rare side view mirror for your LeSabre for 10% of it's value! (Sounds like a true story, doesn't it?) The same goes for both this forum and eBay. You just have to tune those guys out. I've never once followed a link placed by one of these self-promoters. <P>That's why I never posted any of my own auctions. I figure others have to bothered by it as much as I am.<P>Just place them in the category with those guys who sell torn-up Motor and Chilton manuals as specific marque "Repair Information". <P>I do find such links very useful when someone else finds something and uses the forum to call attention to it, either for purposes of someone else's requested information or for derisive amusement.

[Guest]

Just got back from a visit to the buy/sell section.<P>As of this time, for today, 3-22-02, there are 8 posts. <P>5 offering only a direct reference to ebay.<BR>2 legitimate ads for cars for sale.<BR>1 complaining about the practice of using the AACA forum as a lead in to ebay offerings.<P>Whose forum is this anyway? <P>Dave ~ One of my objections is the time wasted opening all of those ebay reference ads. ~ hvs<p>[ 03-22-2002: Message edited by: hvs ]

[Guest]

i have bought 4 cars off ebay and been over the moon with each of them i fid you yanks real gent's i hope to buy some more (if the price is right!!!!!<P>the cars i have bought are as follows .....<P>1924 studebaker special six <BR>1927 chevy open tourer <BR>1927 dodge open tourer<BR>1962 cadillac <P><BR>all cars have been shipped to the UK so i have lots more to risk than you lot !!!

[Mark Huston]

No matter what system you use or set up someone will find away to take advantage of it. The Buy/Sell section of this forum is an example. I don't care for unregistered users posting ads for their Ebay sells here, but, no matter what you do to try and check the problem they will find away around it, you can be sure of that. Those types always do. <BR>Regarding ebay, I have been both a buyer and seller. I have sold an antique car on ebay. I tried to sell it through local ads in the newspaper etc. Could not get a single person to come look at it. Put it on Ebay and sold it right away. What I like most about Ebay is that you as a sell and buyer can connect with others that you would not be able to any other way. I have sold things that I thought I would never be able to sell and have bought items that I have looked for for years. It works both ways. Yes, some things get over bid - but ask the guy that you think bid the item to high if he is happy with the price and I bet he would say yes and brag about the great deal he got and how long he had been looking for just that item. For those that have a problem with ebay, the answer is simple - don't access the site.

[Guest SalG (Sal Grenci)]

Never bought or sold a thing on eBay, I have not even looked in months, but I have bought some things on an internet auction site. My local PBS station recently started doing an online auction. It is better than the call in ones I have taken part in for several years, no busy signals or volunteers making mistakes because they can not hear you on the phone. I got tickets to 42nd Street a few weeks back. As for the DF. I have bought a number of things and will continue to do so, I like the idea of getting to know someone from their post, and the ability to meet them in person. I have bought several things from Howard, he offers good terms. I also have attended a number of "real" auctions in recent years, the live kind, complete with buyers premium and little numbered cards. Nothing like seeing and feeling the goods. My favorite auction is the AACA museum auction at the annual meeting, no premiums, taxes or fees and all the items are donated and go to a good cause.<p>[ 03-23-2002: Message edited by: SalG ]

[Guest]

No matter what I say, some people insist that this thread must have been meant to be an anti ebay thing. <B>IT ISN"T!</B>.<P>If it was meant to be anti anything, it was anti those people who use the AACA forum to hype sales on ebay. That is nothing against ebay. Why must some people insist on turning this simple discussion into a defense of ebay. Ebay doesn't need defending here.<P>Since the original intent from when I started this thread has been lost, I will drop off. Let it now continue as a discussion of the merits of ebay. ~ hvs

[NOSGM]

Thanks for your permission, sir.

[Guest]

Let's accept that ebay, whatever anyone's feelings regarding it, is an established institution that serves it's purpose well and is obviously here to stay, however rapacious their fees have become of late.<BR>I am an antique dealer by trade, although a car collector by inclination and selling on ebay has opened up the whole world to me and the goods I'm offering. Australia, Singapore, Japan, Norway, I've sold and shipped across the globe where previously I depended on local auctions or my shop where resident cheapskates would chew me down unmercifully. I have sold cars on ebay as well including my much travelled '32 Nash,by no means a show car,yet it brought what was to me a very satisfactory price and the buyer agreed stating in the feedback that it was very truthfully described, while local car fanciers had offered me almost half of what I got for it. Sure, there are abuses,just like some vehicles advertised in Hemmings or elsewhere, but if the seller is forthright and willing to answer all the potential bidder's questions and supply pictures and third party proof if necessary then it makes it a hell of a lot simpler and the potential for obtaining a bargain are much greater, and yes, please put the item # in your ad if you post it!

[Guest stude8]

Do you think after the E-Bay vote we could move to deport all the Taiwan tool vendors to the low lands near the creek in the Yellow field?

[Guest]

Some thoughts on the Ebay/swap meet vending issue ... and some suggested solutions: <P>I think it is fine to see items posted on the DF that are going to Ebay. In fact, I worry that I might miss something I want as I don't have time to do elaborate searches on Ebay for my varied and admittedly sometimes impulsive automotive interests. <P>And I see it from the other perspective as well ... I would like to think I could post some items I have to Ebay and let the DF'ers know about them. For example, I have a stack of sales brochures for obscure makes from around 1915-16 that I do not know the value of ... nor is it likely that anyone is searching Ebay daily for them. I'm sure someone in the AACA that owns one of the vehicles included would be pleased to know that a brochure for his or her car is going to be available for purchase, as it might be many years before they see another. They might even get it at a bargain price, since there may not be many bidders.<P>Likewise, I have a few pieces of NOS trim for '50s GM cars that I should list ... again, I'm not a vendor today and I don't have any idea of the values now. Ebay helps me determine that ... and I'm the one who gets the price the item deserves, not another vendor who "steals" it from me at the swap meet. I also think the odds are that on Ebay the items will be going to someone who actually wants it for their car or hobby interest, not another vendor who will hold it until death unless someone coughs up his typically exaggerated idea of it's value.<P>Ebay has had an interesting impact on values, by the way. It has made common items almost worthless and rare items (at least those for which there is a wide-spread demand) very valuable. A true supply-and-demand marketplace that generally does a good job of establishing true relative value.<P>Speaking of values, I think the idea that the priced items offered for sale on the DF or at swap meets are bargain priced by hobbyists to make fellow hobbyists a deal is extremely unlikely. I've seen very few instances where any individual has offered a priced item for sale either online or at a swap meet for anything less than the absolutely highest price they could imagine sticking any body for. In years past, I sold a lot of items at move-em-out prices at swap meets due to professional moves ...and you know what ? ... they usually ended up on some one else's table at double or triple the price I sold them for ... very few of them went directly to someone who could actually use them. The early birds get the worms at swap meets, and they're usually your fellow vendors out stocking up. And as for Hershey, I haven't seen many bargains for my classic Cadillac on the tables there lately. Let's don't kid ourselves.<P>That said, I also agree that it is irritating to see someone list part after part individually on the DF For Sale pages, whether for Ebay or not. This is ill-mannered and should be banned.<P>I suggest the following: For Sale posts by an individual users be limited to three consecutive posts in any 24-period. Likewise, Ebay items could be limited in the number of individual posts. A user could just as easily post a heading such as, "Early brochures selling on Ebay" and then list all of his items under the single posting, rather than cluttering up the page with item-by-item multiple posts.<P>I think these suggestions would make any individual's postings, or any specific method of selling, much less obtrusive and would preserve the variety of the DF For Sale pages, which is afterall, what brings me to them along with I'm sure thousands of others.

[Guest Skyking]

I read all these replys and they all seem to be agreeable on both sides. The thing that upsets me about the DF verses E-Bay, when you ask a person something about the item he is selling on the DF, 90% of the time you don't get any response. It's like he fell off the planet.....but, on the other hand when you ask a person who is selling on E-Bay, you get a reply right away.....Why is this??? If someone is selling an item, shouldn't they follow through?

[Guest]

Agreed.<BR> The 2 times I posted items for sale on the board the response was dismal with only 1 inquiry for each item while I've already mentioned my success with ebay.<BR>How about a separate section listing items on ebay germane to our hobby as many other car club websites have done? Either with a direct link or at least the item#s?

[NOSGM]

Skyking-<P> The reason that you get a fast response to questions on ebay is that the items listed on ebay are there to be sold, and often with no reserve. On the DF, the item is "for sale"...big difference. With ebay, it is to the seller's advantage to describe the item as thoroughly and quickly as possible to insure that it will get bids. The ebay "search" system suggests a serious intent to buy, while the "stumble across an item" system on the Buy/Sell forum attracts lots of tire kickers and bargain hunters. After a while you can tell who is who by the questions, and lots go unanswered... not the best way to do business, but it happens.

[Guest]

LI Stellite seems to have come up with an idea that should appeal to both HVS and NOSGM and their adherents. Could the administrator and/or webmaster give this idea some consideration?