NCReatta Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 So my '89 has been running rough. I recently converted the coils to Delco, and that made it a little better. Then the Cat was glowing red, so I replaced that with a straight pipe..But I'm still having a loss of power, and a lot of stumbling when I get on an on ramp for the freeway, or even when I accelerate from a stop light.I've been considering a tune-up. Anyone think that would help?Just looking for some ideas..Thanks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 Tuneups always help if it has been a long time since one was done but the question is why was the cat getting that hot. Two things come to mind that might cause that. A rich mixture (maybe a O2 sensor is bad) or ignition timing be off. Since timing is not adjustable it is possible the harmonic balancer has gotten loose as described in another recent post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCReatta Posted October 9, 2011 Author Share Posted October 9, 2011 Harmonic balancer went bad (started rattling like crazy) a few days ago. My mechanic is going to work on it Wednesday. You think thats it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 If the rattle is just from the rubber in the center gone bad no. If the rattle is from the balancer being loose on the crankshaft it could cause timing problems that would effect engine performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Recian Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 you say it has no power that may cause a rough idle but not the poor accel. If the headers are glowing red youve got a timing problem giving you a poor mixture burn causing exessive NOx hence heating the headers. If the cat is glowing i suspect over-lean mixture which is what causes heat. Fuel cools the mixture and if there's not enough the combusion temps rise in upwards of 2000+ degrees and that much heat getting to the cat would definately cause it to glow. Usually in that situation the headers glow also because that's the hottest point of the exhaust. An over-rich mixture could do the same, the gas ignites as it touches the high temps of the catalyst material. Check your O2 readings through the CRT make sure it's not sticking around .1 or .9v. On cars this age O2 sensors should be done at 30k seeing as it's only a $19 part and it's easy to get to. It has a major effect on cars fuel mixture from this era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 I consider plugs (#14 Rapidfires with Delco ignition), plug wires, and O2 sensor to be part of a tuneup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCReatta Posted October 10, 2011 Author Share Posted October 10, 2011 Ok, well the HB is only retelling because the rubber is beat.The O2 sensor is not ever giving me a steady reading. Went into Diagnostic mode while deriving today, and the O2 reading was bouncing around so much I couldn't even figure an average. I've got some new AC Delco plugs that I ended up with (in the pack of a parts car), so I'll give those to my mechanic, and get an O2 sensor for him to install too..Any other ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mc_Reatta Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Can you relate the glowing exhaust with either the changing of the ICM or HB rattling? Both are hey to getting a signal to the ECM for timing and could be suspect.Not a typical ICM failure mode, but possible. Could try another different ICM and see if it changes anything. Damage to the shutter rings on the back of the HB, if damaged, could also throw off the timing signal without giving a noticeable change in outward appearance of a problem. Would think it would damage the sensor though preventing starting.A non steady reading from the O2 sensor is a good thing as long as it crosses over .45 volts (reference voltage) and back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCReatta Posted October 10, 2011 Author Share Posted October 10, 2011 Can you relate the glowing exhaust with either the changing of the ICM or HB rattling?Both are hey to getting a signal to the ECM for timing and could be suspect.Not a typical ICM failure mode, but possible. Could try another different ICM and see if it changes anything.Damage to the shutter rings on the back of the HB, if damaged, could also throw off the timing signal without giving a noticeable change in outward appearance of a problem. Would think it would damage the sensor though preventing starting.A non steady reading from the O2 sensor is a good thing as long as it crosses over .45 volts (reference voltage) and back.Well, I've been smelling something that I suppose was the Cat getting hit for two or so months. The car was sitting in my driveway idling when the HB started rattling. The cat was glowing red then. ItDoesn't glow when I'm driving around (enough air movement I suppose)The O2 reading was going everywhere from 07 to 94.. Sometimes it'll feel like it clears up somehow and runs great. But only for a few seconds.. Then its back where we started..Does this help?Thanks for all the help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Copper81 Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 You mentioned, "But I'm still having a loss of power, and a lot of stumbling when I get on an on ramp for the freeway, or even when I accelerate from a stop light." I am wondering if this part of the overall problem might be caused by a faulty fuel pressure regulator. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mc_Reatta Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 If it has been going on for several months prior to replacing the ICM and hearing the HB, then I think you can ignore my comments.Let us know if it doesn't improve after you have a tune up with new O2 sensor and new HB installation performed.The O2 readings are indicating the entire range of operating voltage, but sometimes a below the normal low readings of 0.20 to 0.90. Readings below .45 volt indicate a lean mixture, above a rich mixture. More important number in this case is the cross-count number (ED18). Counts the number of times it crosses over .45 volt over a 1.25 second period of time. No average number at idle is spec'ed. Higher is better. If it spends more time below .45 then the mixture is on the lean side, but it sounds like this isn't the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCReatta Posted October 10, 2011 Author Share Posted October 10, 2011 You mentioned, "But I'm still having a loss of power, and a lot of stumbling when I get on an on ramp for the freeway, or even when I accelerate from a stop light." I am wondering if this part of the overall problem might be caused by a faulty fuel pressure regulator. Just a thought.That's a thought... Are there tests I can do for that?Ok, I'll post back when I get some more stuff done..The strange thing is that I'm not getting a single ECM code.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mc_Reatta Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Not so strange. Most of the driveability problems we have worked on here on the forum don't set a code. So many things can affect driveability and not set a code or be within the ability of the diagnostics to set a code it isn't funny, and be costly to determine through trial and error shotgunning parts. You should do the obvious and routine things first, then if not fixed try to troubleshoot down to other options.I have spent a good while trying to track down a secondary ignition problem which turned out to be a fresh spark plug that had a barely noticeable crack in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 I have spent a good while trying to track down a secondary ignition problem which turned out to be a fresh spark plug that had a barely noticeable crack in it.x2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Plug wires, particularly around the alternator, could be breaking down. This is where putting it on a real ignition analyzer would be helpful, a weak pair will show right up.Also look at the Long term (BLM - ED20) mixture and Instantaneous (FI - ED19) while driving will help but are just reflections of what the O2 sensor is telling them. Both should be within five counts of 128. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCReatta Posted October 11, 2011 Author Share Posted October 11, 2011 Crap..,I went to leave to go get some gas this evening, and the very low oil message came up on the CRT.. I checked it, and it was below the hash marks on the dipstick.This car has never burned or leaked a drop of oil, and I check it every week or two. There's no spot under the car, so it must be burning it...Could this be related? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mc_Reatta Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Do you leave a smoke trail when you run down the road?Pull the plugs and see what they say. O2 sensors don't appreciate oil smoke very much either.How quickly do you think it went thru all that that oil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCReatta Posted October 11, 2011 Author Share Posted October 11, 2011 I've lost my dang plug socket.. Oh well, another excuse to go to Sears! I really don't know how fast it went.. It's been a week or two since I last checked it.When I took it to my mechanic to have the cat cut off, he said he would try to get the HB off. He tried and tried, but then he blew the motor on his air compressor. So he put it all back together and said come back on wednesday.Is it possible he could've done something to make it start burning oil? I'll put a quart or two in tomorrow and keep track of how fast it burns it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Have you looked in the radiator for the oil? :eek::eek::eek:A lot of oil going thru the cat would probably cause it to overheat trying to burn the oil. If the cat is still off you should be seeing smoke out the rear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mc_Reatta Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Only way to get oil into the chamber is past a valve or the rings.Doubt anything he did would have contributed to either of those.Do a compression check when you pull the plugs.Between that and what plugs indicate should confirm if that's what your facing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCReatta Posted October 11, 2011 Author Share Posted October 11, 2011 Ah screw it...IMMA PUT MY S/C IN. :D Ok.. well maybe not. Thanks you guys for all the help... Hopefully I can get this thing going again.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCReatta Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 Ok just an update..Car is no longer burning oil. My mechanic had unplugged a sensor on the oil pan. He thought he plugged it it, but it fell out again. Anyways.. It's good now. No loss of oil.Per yall's suggestion, I checked the plug wires. Check the wires, and pulled on the boots, and BAM.. The wire snapped right off the boot on cylinder 1 (I think.. Back drivers cylinder). So I'm gonna put a new set of wires on after lunch and see what happens.Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2seater Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 The back driver's side is #6. Just so it gets connected to the proper coil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCReatta Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 Ok.. Replaced the plugs and wires. Runs a lot smoother, but still not perfect. Harmonic balancer is replaced.It feels like it's starving for gas. It'll choke up (under load) and really doesn't like accelerating fast. Since I can't replace the fuel filter, I'm going to replace the fuel pressure regulator tomorrow and see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAVES89 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Try a different Mass Air Flow sensor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCReatta Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 Try a different Mass Air Flow sensor.Ok, I'll give that a shot too tomorrow. I've replaced it once before with a upullit model, but that may have been bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Have you cleaned the EGR valve? It can cause acceleration problems if it is not seating properly. If it doesn't seat extra raw air to enters the engine and will cause the fuel mixture to be lean. Just a thought...EGR Valve Cleaning Instructions*-*ReattaOwner.comBTW, why are you not able to change the fuel filter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCReatta Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 Have you cleaned the EGR valve? It can cause acceleration problems if it is not seating properly. If it doesn't seat extra raw air to enters the engine and will cause the fuel mixture to be lean. Just a thought...EGR Valve Cleaning Instructions*-*ReattaOwner.comBTW, why are you not able to change the fuel filter?No I have not, I'll give that a shot. Thanks!!I can't change the filter because it's rusted on. Nothing will get it off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 And are you sure the plug wires are to the right cyl ? Really sure ? --- --- - O23-6 --- 2 4 62-5 --- 1 3 51-4 ---- front Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCReatta Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 Not positive, but I will make sure again tomorrow. I drove it 10 miles home from my mechanic's shop.. As I said before, the coil pack was upgraded. Is it possible I got a lemon? Is the location of the cylinders still the same (my coils were un-marked)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Location is same for all (is literally a bolt-in). Just your description sounds similar to a mismatch (not all will backfire). Will shake when you try to rev off idle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCReatta Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 Ok, So for the Delco, it would go362514Correct? Also, the car likes running at 60+ MPH. it'll cruise smoothly. but once it hits 4th gear, and sits there for about 10 or 15 seconds, it'll start to shake the car. if I let up on the gas, then hit it again, it goes away. but it'll return in another 15-20 seconds. I have a severe loss of power at any speed. Sometimes it seems to "clear up" and run smoothly for about 2 or 3 seconds, Then it goes right back to where it was. Thanks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 (edited) If it clears up then it is not a miswire but sure sounds like a weak spark. Did you measure primary and secondary coil resistances, all should be within 10% of each other (am thinking 5-6k ohms for the secondary but is from memory). Edited October 13, 2011 by padgett (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCReatta Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 No, I haven't measured resistances on the coils. How do I do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Remove each coil and can use two small blade connectors (or two pins) to measure the primary resistance, then just measure across the two poles to get the secondary resistance.I just measured one at 12 ohms primary and 6k ohms secondary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2seater Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Are you sure you have adequate fuel supply (pressure). I agree the balkiness of the engine is more noticeable when locked up in high gear, and is likely a misfire, however, a lean fuel mixture is harder to fire than a rich one. When you back off the throttle while cruising it may be unlocking the converter, lessening the feel of the miss, which returns when it re-locks. If you suspect the secondary ignition, you could try gapping the spark plugs way down, like .040" or less to see if it improves the feel of the engine. This is only a bandaid if it helps. You should be able to see what the MAF is seeing, as well as other sensors, while running with diagnostics operating. Unfortunately fuel and spark are two items that don't set codes directly and are only indirectly displayed in diagnostics, such as Integrator and Block Learn, plus O2, for fuel delivery as Padgett mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCReatta Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 Is there a way to check fuel pressure through the CRT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCReatta Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 Would it help that my gas milage has gone from 18.5 to 12.5? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 I suspect a misfire is fouling everything up including the MPG. BTW lockup should occur between 3% and 50% TPS when over 46 mph in 4th (O/D) or 38 mph in 3rd (D). Worst case on the ignition is moderate load (less than 50%) at low rpm in lockup (1400 rpm at 50).If it is misfiring then, MPG will be in the outhouse. Misfire also causes increased load (temperature) and fuel burning in the echaust manifold. Not Good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCReatta Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 That's my thinking. I'll test the coils for resistance and stick another magnavox on and see what happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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