Did brake test, have questions

[DAVES89]

My amber light has been staying on longer and longer after first start up in the morning. Yesterday it came on and pretty much stayed on. So last night I swapped out the main relay with others that I had in inventory. Amber light went out, came back on, went out and stayed out [1 mile drive]. This AM started car, amber light came on, then went out after about 20 seconds. Came back on less then 1 mile into a 10 mile drive. Stopped,turned off the car, did an errand. When I got back in the car and started it, amber light came on, then went/stayed out for the return 10 mile drive back home.

I took the brake test, these are my results done immediatly after I got home;

Test 1 [5]

Test 2 [25]

Test 3 [Red 0] Amber [32]

Test 4 [aprox 45]

Test 5 [1&1/2 pumps]

Test 6 [1/2"]

Test 7 [Thump]

The Red light did not come on during test, but works during the show. I believe the test indicates that I have a failing accumulator, but here is the bad part... it is a "Made in Germany" stickered accumulator. I also have a "Made in Germany" pressure switch.

Anyone else have a failed stickered preeure switch or accumulator?

Looking for help/comments.

[matthewlawe]

Dave,

About three years ago I purchased a new accumlator that was

labeled "Made in Germany"

In addition a NOS brake pressure switch is labeled "Made in

Beligum".

The accumulator functioned until I went with a brake conversion but not because of the accumlator.

The NOS brake pressure switch is unused.

[padgett]

Need to pull the EBCM codes (jumper ALDL, count flashes - see section 5E in FSM). That "drive about a mile" sounds like a failing whel sensor.

BTW with the red light out, the yellow should go out within a second or two of the "thump" which should take place within 5 seconds of key on. If it stays on longer after the "thump" I suspect it is detecting a fault. If the "thump" is late, I'd look for a power issue.

Even a replacement accumulator will fail eventually, I have had one wih the sticker on blue since 2001. Switch with a sticker just sounds like NORS or possibly a current replacement.

Edited July 8, 2011 by padgett (see edit history)

[DAVES89]

I get a code 22. Which indicates, among other things a bad EBCM. It could also be a valve body or short in a wire. I have an extra EBCM, I can swap that first.

The code 22 does not indicate a bad sensor lead unless I read this wrong?

[padgett]

I would suggest swapping in the other EBCM since easy (can just connect loose in trunk). OTOH I would suggest visually examining the sensor leads by the wheels, If one (or more) is fraying application of liquid electrical tape now may save.

[DAVES89]

I did a visual inspection of the leads, all 4 appear good. I will be changing my oil tomorrow and will be able to do a better visual then.

This afternoon I did a leather treatment on the seats, when they dried I took it for a spin, ABS light out. However I got an electrical warning thru the CRT, but no Service Engine Soon flashing light. Swapped out the SES bulb, took it for another spin, ABS light went out immediatley after starting car, never came on, SES/CRT issue resolved, cleared codes, looks like I am good again for now...

However if this happens again I will swap out EBCM as you suggest.

[DAVES89]

OK this AM did my oil change. While car was up checked all 4 sensor leads very carefully. All are perfect as they should be, I just replaced them [all 4] about a year ago.

Swapped out the EBCM and took it for a spin. Light comes on then goes out. When it comes on it is usally when I am accellerating or going up a grade. When it goes out is usually when I am going down a grade or stopping. Maybe a loose wire at the relay harness? I sprayed the connections at the two brake relays and also rotated them once again.

I am still getting a code 22

Any ideas?

[padgett]

Are not many things that can have the light go on then off, usually a fault will latch until you cycle the ignition, and most relate to power. I'd probably wire a test light onto the hot coil lead on the ABS relay (comes from pin 20 on the EBCM connector) and see if that is going off when the ABS light comes on. I take it the red light is staying off when this happens.

[Guest Mc_Reatta]

Padgett is correct that if you did get a true LF inlet valve fault it would latch the ABS light on for the entire ignition cycle.

When you misinstalled the other ECBM did you bend or push back any pins in connector? That could be a source an intermittent problem.

Can you check the resistance of the LF inlet coil as instructed in the FSM?

[DAVES89]

I can check the pins, but that issue of the ECBM improper installation was about 2 years and 10000 miles ago. What I had failed to do was hook the tab under the bracket. This problem was caught by my mechanic friend who reinstalled it. It was not a case of bent tabs causing things not to work.

I remember well when that episode started as it was the fall after my cancer surgery, and I had taken my daughters puppy to see some friends at their cottage. These people had two big dogs and chased her under my car, which aggravated some pretty fragile sensor leads. This kicked off the EBCM installation problem and the subsequent replacement of all 4 sensor leads.

I just went out to fire the Red up and what I observed was this.

All the warning/dash lights work as they should during the "Show." When I start the car the "red" brake light does not come on, but the "ABS" amber light came on for about 6 seconds and then turned off.

I think Padget is on the right path regarding the pin at the relay. I had trouble getting the relays to stay in place on the fire wall, so I just ziptied them to the bracket. By doing this maybe I stretched a lead, which is now causing my intermittant issue. When I rotated my relays, I made sure to mount it correctly on the bracket.

My mechanic friend actually enjoys working on my car and in particular the electronic issues that seem to come our way. [We have noticed one thing about the Reatta. When my car is in his garage the remotes for his garage door opener will not work the door, he has to use the wall buttons]. I have the proper EBCM test tool and will ask him do the trouble shooting. I am leaning to a "loose" pin in the relay plug. [Much like the loose pin in my Black which caused my Headlight Issues].

Edited July 10, 2011 by DAVES89 (see edit history)

[padgett]

"When I start the car the "red" brake light does not come on". It should particularly after sitting all night. Think I'd troubleshoot that first since the boost system must work properly for the ABS to do so.

[DAVES89]

I just came back from a short drive. Turn left, light does not turn on. Turn right it does. Turned right again, did not turn off. Turned car off to cycle key. Did 5 consecutive left turns, no light. Did right turn back on. Cycled key, made right turn light stayed off. Turn left into driveway light stayed off.

Read codes thru ALDL.. code 22

You may have something there Padgett as the brakes on occasion feel like they are "pushing back" not when stopping, but when I am stopped at at light or stop sign for a short extended time.

I think I will do another brake test when I return from church... will post results.

Tomorrow I will get out the shop manual and follow the tests.

[Ronnie]

I just came back from a short drive. Turn left, light does not turn on. Turn right it does. Turned right again, did not turn off.

Dave, I think your Reatta was one of the rare ones built to be a pace car. When you turn right the yellow light comes on to remind you that you are going the wrong way.

[padgett]

Be very careful and be ready to use E-brake and gears. That "pushing back" could be a failing valve.

If you can get the light to turn on while stipped and with wheels turned, I would check the resistances for all four sensors at the EBCM connector.

[DAVES89]

This is getting weird. I get in my car after church and drive 50 miles to camper, no light ontil I make a right turn once in campground. Did family stuff all day, we get in the car to come home light on all the way to friends house [plans changed enroute home]. Leave friends house light on again. Stopped cycled key and light out all the way home [right anf left turns].

Padgett the "push back" happened again, it was the Antilock "shudder," which was surprising to me as I was on dry pavement.

I will be doing the test tomorrow, and will get my repair manual out and do my best to test per the instructions. I still think it is still a bad pin in the relay... Hopefullly testing will tell me what is up.

[padgett]

This is sounding more to me like an intermittant in one sensor (goes to zero, EBCM "thinks" wheel has stopped, applies ABS).

I'd try to force it by turning the wheel all the way to the right and checking the sensor resistances. Might also see if one front sensor is stretching the cable on a full right excusion. Stretching a braided cable is not good, why it has loops.

[DAVES89]

I will do as you suggest...

[DAVES89]

I ran for parts at the salvage yard for Kdirk and a friend of mine, so have not had a chance to do diagnostics. My daughter wants to go boating this aft. so time is really getting short.

At any rate I did have time to run another brake test. Here is the original from 2 days ago and this mornings;

Two Days ago //// This AM

1] no red 5 amber //// no red 5 amber

2] 25 //// 9 tried again 2

3] 0 30 //// 6 30 tried again 0 38

4]40 //// 45 tried again 53

5] 1.5,1.5,1.5 //// 1.5 1.5 1.5

6] 1/2" //// 5/8"

7] Thump //// Thump

According to Barney's test on Ronnie's website

Test 1 Should get 5-8 pumps I get 1.5

Test 2 check the fluid level change between pressurized and non pressurized. Should change less then 1/2" Mine changes 1/2" to 5/8"

I have a brand new back up accumulator and also have a "Made in Belgium" pressure switch I got from the salvage yard. Should I just swap them out based on Barney's and the forums brake test?

Any thoughts?

Edited July 11, 2011 by DAVES89 (see edit history)

[DAVES89]

I believe it is fixed. I called Jim Finn to ask if I should replace the Accumulator or the Pressure switch. Jim said the switch. Replaced it but that was not the answer. Padgett was right it was a sensor lead, but not a wheel sensor lead. It is the sensor lead on the passenger front that connects to the wheel sensor [so that there would be one part # for both front wheel sensors] and runs up the fire wall and over to the Teves brake pump. The insulation was bare right at the point it "lays" on the inner feder well right at the connection to the wheel sensor lead. I suspect that it was occasionally "shorting" out causing the ABS to come on and go off.

I sliced a vinyl tube lengthwise and wrapped the cable in that. I secured each end of the tube with zip ties. I drove it making both right and left turns and so far all is good.

I would expect that this is another part that has gone unobtanium, so I will soon be at Gibsons pulling these leads for both my Reattas as there are two Reattas out there. Both of my Reattas are original souhern cars [Red from Florida, Black from Arizona] so cracked lines are to be expected. I also bought some plastic dip [recomended by Padgett] to coat my existing leads if the ones at the salvage yard are no good either.

[padgett]

So another case of the code not matching the failure. Glad you found it.

[DAVES89]

Well it looks like a little humble pie is in order. I removed both front wheels and removed both front wheel sensor leads from the retainers, still leaving them in the hub. Both front leads had frayed areas.

So I removed and swapped out both leads with one new one, and one very nice used unit I had in backstock.

One of the leads I removed is easily repairable as the frayed end is the end that would be in the engine compartment. The other one, while repairable, would take a little more effort and electrical knowledge than I have to repair.

Kdirk it is coming your way in that project box of parts you ordered.

[DAVES89]

I had an empty house today and decided to get to the bottom of this code 22. In my repair manual code 22 refers me to page 5E1-31. I got out my Kent Moorre J-35592 pin out box and did as the tests instruct.

With pinout box connected measure resistance between pins 11 and 35.

Mine read 0.00 ohms.

Go to test outside 5-7 ohms

Disconnect 7 pin connector

Measure resistance between pins F and G

Mine read 0.00 ohms

OUTSIDE 5-7 ohms

REPLACE VALVE BLOCK

As I am not interested in replacing just the valve block I guess I am looking at an entire brake assembly, how do I figure out what is good in a unit from the yard?

[padgett]

What does it read between E and G (the other valve) ? Are you on a low range (200 ohms max) ?

[DAVES89]

As you might have suspected as you wanted me to check my work, I had the ohm meter set at 200k not 200. So my new readings are 4.8 ohms at pins E and G and 1.3 ohm at pins F and G. This with the EBCM cable connected.

[DAVES89]

As an update. I am using the low cost Cen tech multimeter from Harbor Freight. I have the unit set for 200 and the red pin in the center jack and the black lead plugged into the common or lower jack. Touched the leads together and get 1.2 ohms, will not go to 0. So my info is flawed, but it is all that I have...

[DAVES89]

I went over to a friends house who has a DVM and read the ohms at the EBCM. Now I fall within range [5-7 ohms]. But I still have code 22.

I am now ordering a new ABS600 wheel sensor from Advance. I also went to the local pick and pull and got the wiring harness that plugs into the ABS side of the Teves. [i actually snipped the entire harness for the Teves] I will start my testing on Monday, hope to have good info by then.

BTW after removing the passenger front side sensor lead, I replaced it with one out of a Caddy. The "barrel" looked longer, but I installed it anyway. There was a vibrating noise that quickly went away. I removed the Caddy sensor lead and saw that the barrel had a pretty significant groove wore in it from rubbing on the axle. Replaced it with another lead from a Reatta [looked right] but still have code 22.

Also BTW the "red" brake light only comes on during the "show" and when pressing the test button. It does not come on when starting car.

Brakes work fine.

Any advice?

[Ronnie]

Also BTW the "red" brake light only comes on during the "show" and when pressing the test button. It does not come on when starting car.

Not even when starting first thing in the morning?

[DAVES89]

Not even when starting up in the morning.

[Guest Mc_Reatta]

Dave, how about some more info on that Caddy sensor. If the only difference is the length of the barrel, that would be easy enough to get around by using a spacer.

Did it fit well otherwise?

I guess you can't tell if it worked electrically if your yellow light is on due to something else but might be worth looking into if there were more of those Caddys made with Teves than Reattas. What year and model did you get it from?

[padgett]

No red light on startup but good brakes could have three causes that I know of - bad pressure switch, bad wiring, bad BCM circuit: suspect the test and show are internal to the IPC. Does it come on with the e-brake ? (only thing I know of that will give a red but not a yellow light).

[Ronnie]

Dave, I believe the first logical step in solving your problem is getting the red light working as it should. Right now you have no way of telling if the yellow light is coming on due to the pressure switch indicating a low pressure condition or not. You need to know for certain that you don't have a pressure problem before starting the process of troubleshooting the ABS system. At least that is how I see it...

[DAVES89]

Dave, how about some more info on that Caddy sensor. If the only difference is the length of the barrel, that would be easy enough to get around by using a spacer.

Did it fit well otherwise?

I guess you can't tell if it worked electrically if your yellow light is on due to something else but might be worth looking into if there were more of those Caddys made with Teves than Reattas. What year and model did you get it from?

I can tell you it is a caddy sensor, but that is all. If you PM me with your address I will mail it to you. It did fit well but it was long. It did come out of the socket well but the o ring seal was damaged. I tried using it, but to no avail. I thought that with Padgetts experience that the ALDL codes being wrong it might still be a sensor, which is why I tried replacing the front sensors. They were in worse condition then I thought any how, which is why I am replacing them with new ones from Advance. I had one new one and just today I ordered another ABS600 sensor.

[DAVES89]

No red light on startup but good brakes could have three causes that I know of - bad pressure switch, bad wiring, bad BCM circuit: suspect the test and show are internal to the IPC. Does it come on with the e-brake ? (only thing I know of that will give a red but not a yellow light).

I swapped out the relays and then I moved them back and forth [main relay ABS relay swap], no change. Also swapped out the pressure switch. I am leaning towards wiring next. I have the pin out box as well as just today the Teves wiring harness so I can plug this pick an pull harness in, strip the ends and get good reads.

If I can't get it on my own, I have arranged for my mechanic buddy to help me thru this.

[DAVES89]

Dave, I believe the first logical step in solving your problem is getting the red light working as it should. Right now you have no way of telling if the yellow light is coming on due to the pressure switch indicating a low pressure condition or not. You need to know for certain that you don't have a pressure problem before starting the process of troubleshooting the ABS system. At least that is how I see it...

Ronnie, I agree. First thing I will do when time allows is to get my service manual out and trouble shoot why I have no red light at start up. When I get that addressed then move onto ABS. To date I have had no brake issues. Brakes work exactly as they should, just that I have no red light at start up and the ABS is on all the time now instead of intermittantly. I do not have any of the "hard pedal" or intermittant flashing of a red warning light that one would expect of a failing brake system.

[Ronnie]

Dave, does the red brake light come on if you set the parking brake? OR if you suck the fluid out of the reservoir?

[Guest Mc_Reatta]

Dave, Pressure switch grounds circuit to BCM when pressure is below 1700 psi which tells the BCM to send a data signal to the IPC to command the red light on.

The other signals that should turn the red light on also work thru the BCM.

So if the low brake fluid switch and the parking brake switch turn the light on in the problem is most likely that pressure switch.

If none of the switches turn the light on then it's probably the IPC or BCM.

[DAVES89]

Dave, does the red brake light come on if you set the parking brake? OR if you suck the fluid out of the reservoir?

Ronnie good question. I don't have time tonight to drain down the resivoir but I did try the E brake and light came on when I set the brake and went off when I released the brake.

So that part works. What idea do you have?

[DAVES89]

Dave, Pressure switch grounds circuit to BCM when pressure is below 1700 psi which tells the BCM to send a data signal to the IPC to command the red light on.

The other signals that should turn the red light on also work thru the BCM.

So if the low brake fluid switch and the parking brake switch turn the light on in the problem is most likely that pressure switch.

If none of the switches turn the light on then it's probably the IPC or BCM.

Interesting as the pressure switch that was in was a stickered replacement switch as was the one I replaced it with. I do have at least one more switch [unstickered] I could try that.

[padgett]

Looking at the pressure switch schematic there are three contacts. D is ground, ignition must be on. B shorted to D should turn the red light on (open above 1900 psi, closed below 1500 psi). A shorted to D turns the pump relay on (open above 2600 psi closed below 2000psi). Fluid level sensor (C to E) is open below 1500 psi, closed above 1900 psi (allows ABS to operate and in series with the fluid level sensor).

So if the B-D switch is open all the time then everything else will be normal but the red light will not come on. Maybe.

[Ronnie]

I agree that trying another pressure switch is in order. You proved the BCM was sending data to the IPC by testing the parking brake. No need to test by removing fluid from the reservoir since the parking brake test lit the red light on the dash.

Before changing the switch I would go into diagnostics and look to see what the pressure switch is telling the BCM by looking at BCM input BI01 (bi01) and see what it reads. Disconnect the pump connector and relieve all pressure in the system before you check it. Then plug the connector up and check BI01 again to see if the reading changes when the pump builds pressure. I assume the pump is turning off... correct?

As Padgett suggested, shorting terminal D (ground) to terminal B (Red/Black wire) in the pressure switch connector should make the red light go on and off.

Edited July 24, 2011 by Ronnie (see edit history)