1913 Metz 22 - Our first project

[chistech]

Here’s some pictures. There’s more paper work not shown with each pistons vitals.

[Luv2Wrench]

Wow those look NICE!

[chistech]

I hated to put them in my motor!😄 I actually said they should be on a coffee table somewhere as a piece of art.

[Luv2Wrench]

Block and crankshaft are at machine shop.  All cylinder will be sleeved standard (3.75"), crankshaft will be cleaned up and valves will be ground down to fit.  I've talked to two engine builders and they both strongly endorsed the plug/cap method for the wrist pin.  One noted that airplanes engines do this to eliminate the possibility of a clip coming out.  As such, I'll be ordering Model T pistons next week.

 

I spent a considerable amount of time cleaning the two halves of the crankcase.  I'm using the original crankcase as the "new" one had a bunch of hairline cracks throughout.  The original one has one issue on the upper side that I don't think will be that much of an issue.  I plan to paint the insides with Glyptal which should further reduce the possibility of oil leaking out.   I've soaked the two halves, then cleaned them, then soaked them, then media blasted the, then heated them, then cleaned them and the heated/cleaned again.  The last time I wasn't seeing anything on the towels so I feel confident they are clean.  Once the Glyptal arrives I'll clean them again and apply.  They'll need to be baked as well and I have a setup for that.  I went ahead and painted the outsides as they're easier to keep clean that way.  It is high heat engine paint so I should be fine when I bake the Glyptal at 250 degrees.

 

I laid out all the basic chassis pieces and will be getting them ready for epoxy primer tomorrow.  The goal is to get them all painted and then assembled on a cart.  Then I'll work out wheel bearings and assemble the hubs.  Once that is completed I'll start putting the wheels together... .and finally, tires.  With a bit of luck we should have a rolling chassis by the end of July and, hopefully, we can then build the engine and set it in place.  Do note that there is a massive amount of work to be done to get the friction driveline system functional and I've allotted two months for that.

 

 

Edited July 2, 2023 by Luv2Wrench (see edit history)

[chistech]

All my Saito four stroke RC plane engines have Teflon plugged wrist pins. That’s a little smaller aircraft engine but same principle!😄

[hursst]

Jeff, you sure do work fast and efficiently.  How many hours a day are you able to work on the car?

[Luv2Wrench]

1 hour ago, hursst said:

Jeff, you sure do work fast and efficiently.  How many hours a day are you able to work on the car?

Thanks Chris,

 

I try to work at least an hour at lunch time as I find the activity really helps with my workday.  I also try to get at least 2 hours before I go to sleep because that helps with sleep.  As such, during the week I get 3 to 4 hours a day though I would say on average I do that 4 out of the 5 days.  On the weekend I probably get 8 hours each day.  

 

As I've heard many others in this forum say, I try to get something done each day and I find that really helps me be consistent.  Planning has never been my strength but I've learned to get better at it as I realize just how important it is.  I use some software that I use for my day job to help stay organized.  The software forces me to fully break down tasks.  While doing this I usually discover blockers (parts/materials/supplies/tools) I don't have or something I don't know how to do.

 

As for "fast and efficiently" I think that is mostly because I'm doing things I've done before multiple times before. When I get to something I haven't done before I really slow down to a crawl.   

 

[hursst]

 

[Luv2Wrench]

2 hours ago, hursst said:

 

Thanks for the head up Chris!

[Luv2Wrench]

Managed to get all the chassis parts shot with 2 coats of epoxy primer.  Typical summer storms made it a bit tricky as there is no roof on the external paint booth.

 

I'll admit I was a tad emotional today seeing these parts painted.  It has been a *really* long road to get to this point.  Of course some of the delay was self imposed, lol.

 

There's still a little of this and a little of that to get everything ready to be put together but I'm hoping that happens this weekend.  I've ordered some Timken tapered roller bearings that should do the front and the outside of the rear.  I already have some for the inner rear but they'll need a bit of fabrication to fit.  I decided to go with modern roller bearings rather than the original ball bearings.  Obviously they'll work better and last longer and while it was a bit costly, after deciding to dump a bunch of money in the engine and make it basically brand new, I figured why not.  Just spend it all!!!

 

Edited July 5, 2023 by Luv2Wrench (see edit history)

[chistech]

When we take on these projects we all have a vision of what the final product will be. We can do all kinds of work on all kinds of different parts but there’s something about that finish coat of paint going on that just makes me sit back, admire what ever part it might be, and a feeling just comes over me. I had never really thought about it as what that feeling is but you’re 100% correct, it’s emotion based on our passion to bring these old cars back to their glory. It’s when we get to admire, not our efforts, but the car or parts as what they should be and how we pictured them in our thoughts. There’s a ton of satisfaction in those emotions too. I think satisfaction is what drives us all in this hobby. Some, it’s one and done. For others, it’s “ I can do the next one even better!”  Then the hobby becomes a sickness!😂

[Luv2Wrench]

Very well said @chistech   With this car I know that I have a core and a bunch of parts that were cast off from other projects.   These parts existed as a car at some point and that car was likely loved by its owner.  I feel a sense of responsibility to restore these parts to a car that will last another 110 years and be loved again.  I probably should get out of the shop more! 🤣

[Luv2Wrench]

Bearings arrived today but unfortunately the seller sent the wrong item.  It'll be next week before I can get that straightened out, very frustrating.  That delay likely means my goal of a rolling chassis by end of July will not happen.  I'm going out of town in 2 weeks so there just won't be enough time.

 

I decided to use the rear leaf springs that came on the parts I bought a year or so ago.  I'm confident that these are the original type springs and I'm not as confident about the ones that came with the original pile of parts.  As such that meant a lot of media blasting and then more epoxy primer.   It is the hot and humid days of summer that remind me off all the hard work I put into the air system to remove water.  The transmission cooler I added a couple years ago that sits between the compressor head and the tank is particularly helpful.  I've done a lot of media blasting lately and that system alone has pulled nearly half a gallon of water out over the last two days.  Getting the water out before it even goes in the tank is a huge help.

 

The bronze bushing also arrived and I got it in the lathe and parted off two pieces to go between the axle and the cone of the inner bearings.  I'll need to clearance the inside of the hub a bit, then press the cup in and that will take care of the inner rear bearings.  I think that the inner rears were going to be the most difficult so if I can get the seller to send me the right parts... I might have the bearings squared away soon.

 

I'm going to go ahead and hang the axles from the frame rails tomorrow but that will be about as far as I can go without the bearings.  I'll probably end up media blasting the rims and getting the wheels ready to restore.

 

[Luv2Wrench]

Summer vacation is over and back to work! 

 

I've been working on getting the Timken tapered roller bearings in the hubs.  The hubs have required some slight modification to get the bearings to fit properly.   I now have one front and one rear hub completed.  In theory the other two should go pretty quick since it is just repeating what I've already done.   I've found, however, that theory doesn't work well in my shop, lol.  

Once I get the hubs completed I'll need to take a bit more time off to get maintenance completed on our daily drivers.  Hopefully I'll be able to get the wheels done after that and finally get a rolling chassis. 

 

[JV Puleo]

Make sure the bearing seat in the hub isn't tapered. This is something I learned doing the Mitchell hubs. When they used drawn cup bearings...the "bicycle bearings" with pressed steel cups, the holes in the hub are often slightly tapered. It was a way of get the cup tight in the hub without having to machine it very precisely since the cups compress a bit. Modern bearing cups don't compress at all and even a few thousandths taper will prevent the new tapered cups from seating.

Edited August 9, 2023 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Luv2Wrench]

1 hour ago, JV Puleo said:

Make sure the bearing seat in the hub isn't tapered. This is something I learned doing the Mitchell hubs. Whey they used drawn cup bearings...the "bicycle bearings" with pressed steel cups the holes in the hub are often slightly tapered. It was a way of get the cup tight in the hub without having to machine it very precisely since the cups compress a bit. Modern bearing cups don't compress at all and even a few thousandths taper will prevent the new tapered cups from seating.

Thanks for mention that! They were indeed tapered and also had a radius at the bottom that was larger than the race I was putting in.  I didn't realize they were tapered until I went to clean up the radius.   I indicated the hubs off the "top" and also touched off there.  As I went in the boring bar started removing material.  This was initially confusing and I put an indicator on the outside and found that was running true.  That implied that there was a taper.  It wasn't much but it was a bit surprising.  Glad to hear you found the same thing.

[JV Puleo]

I made the mistake of measuring in the middle of the hole, taking the measurements for my sleeves from that and trying to press them in. Some actually went in but others stuck and it was hell getting them out. In one case I had to cut it out with a torch and, of course, then had to make a new sleeve. This is why I crushed one of the front hubs.

Edited August 9, 2023 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[MetzHotRod]

On 7/31/2011 at 1:51 PM, KenHupp20 said:

Nice work on the magneto.

Hi KenHupp20,

Did you work on "Happy's" 2014 Metz?

Jim

[MetzHotRod]

On 7/4/2023 at 9:53 PM, Luv2Wrench said:

Managed to get all the chassis parts shot with 2 coats of epoxy primer.  Typical summer storms made it a bit tricky as there is no roof on the external paint booth.

 

I'll admit I was a tad emotional today seeing these parts painted.  It has been a *really* long road to get to this point.  Of course some of the delay was self imposed, lol.

 

There's still a little of this and a little of that to get everything ready to be put together but I'm hoping that happens this weekend.  I've ordered some Timken tapered roller bearings that should do the front and the outside of the rear.  I already have some for the inner rear but they'll need a bit of fabrication to fit.  I decided to go with modern roller bearings rather than the original ball bearings.  Obviously they'll work better and last longer and while it was a bit costly, after deciding to dump a bunch of money in the engine and make it basically brand new, I figured why not.  Just spend it all!!!

 

 

[MetzHotRod]

Really great to see all these parts laid out as you restore them, much appreciated!

[Luv2Wrench]

Houston, we have a problem.

 

I put the rear hub and extension tube into the lathe to take out the taper and radius and immediately noticed a problem.  I had the indicator in the end of the extension tube (where the inner bearing is) and was measuring over 240 thousandths from one side to the other.  After some investigation I determined that the extension tube is not true to the hub.  Way back when I got these parts I thought it looked a little funny but didn't look into it.  At that time I didn't own a lathe much less an indicator!! 

The hub and the inner bearing holder are brazed into the tube.  I've been able to determine that the inner bearing holder is square in the tube and that it is the hub that is out of whack.  I might try to heat it up and remove the hub but I'm doubtful this will succeed.  I think the most likely path will be to get a DOM tube that matches the dimensions (it appears to be 3.5" outer diameter), cut the existing tube at each end, insert the hub/bearing holder into the lathe and turn the tube off.  Then cut a piece of the new tube and reassemble.  I'm not sure how I'll get the assembly true though one idea is to go ahead and put the bearings in and then assemble/braze on the axle.  I haven't thought through it much so that might be a terrible idea.  First step is to get the tube off one way or another and determine the outer and inner diameters.

 

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by Luv2Wrench (see edit history)

[cudaman]

Sounds like something a driveshaft shop would be able to deal with, or at least offer advice on. 

 

[JV Puleo]

Let me see if I understand...the spokes fit between those two flanges but the OD of that piece is not concentric with the bearings.

By  the way,  this is exactly  the sort of problem that comes up constantly when doing pre-WWI cars...and more so with inexpensive cars. Manufacturing tolerances were not anywhere near as good as only 10 or 15 years later. I think, if I were doing it, I'd make the entire piece over but that presumes those flanges either come off or could be made separately and attached.

[Luv2Wrench]

Here is the first one I did that didn't have any issues.  Hopefully you can see how it fits on the axle.  There are bearings and the far left and right ends.  There's another flange that's not shown that matches the one on the far right.  The spokes go just to the right of the flange on the far right and then the flange (not shown) bolts on from the right and hold the spokes in place.

 

[JV Puleo]

I see. The bearings are mounted in the ends of that tube. Needless to say, they have  to be concentric with each other and, ideally, concentric with the OD or the wheel wouldn't be running true although could be out of true a tiny bit and it wouldn't make a difference. I'm notorious for nearly always choosing the hard way to do things but I'd be inclined to make the piece over, starting by getting the two bearing seats in perfect alignment and then turning the OD of the tube off that. Another method might be to in indicate the tube and bore each end for sleeves to hold the bearings. That wouldn't be as accurate because it is very unlikely you could indicate a rough piece like that accurately enough to get the alignment perfect. How did the bad one work you may ask...those Hyatt bearings with the spiral wound rollers were very flexible. They were famous for that and were used precisely because perfect alignment wasn't needed...or better said, the tolerances were very liberal. They weren't all that durable but no one expected these cars to travel many miles and they were cheap to replace. Using modern bearings, which are far better, we don't have that degree of flexibility.

[Luv2Wrench]

I chucked it up in the lathe from the other direction (the left side in the picture above).  I did this by putting the jaws in the bearing seat (the big gear was not installed).  When I spun it around I was surprised to find that the opposite end was mostly true.  The middle part was pretty wonky but from bearing seat to bearing seat it was OK.   The issue I had was trying to hold the hub in the jaws.  The hub is definitely in the tube at an angle which is causing the problem.  I'm 99% sure that I'm going to rebuild the piece even though the two ends are kinda OK.  I've spent years on this car already so another week isn't going to be a big deal. 

Per how did it work before, originally the piece had ball bearings in a cage on each end so alignment issues were not that big a deal.  At least I think that is correct.  I also think this piece has been repaired/modified at some point.  The end of the tube that has the hub is not cut well.

 

[Luv2Wrench]

I pulled the oxy/act torch out and tried to remove the hub from the tube.  Didn't happen.  I wasn't surprised.  I haven't yet worked up the courage for the next step but when I do... I'll put it in the power hacksaw, cut each end off, chuck those in the lathe and turn the tube off the end pieces.  Once I find out what the wall thickness of the tube is I'll order the material.  When it comes it I should be able to square the ends up in the lathe, bore out to the correct inner diameter and braze the ends on.  In theory.

[JV Puleo]

I have confidence in you. As long as you are prepared to start over if something goes wrong you can't fail. Actually, I've found  that doesn't happen often but is more valuable as a state of mind. I think you'll find that making parts is nowhere near as stressful as working with original parts that can't be replaced or replicated. I'd concentrate on getting the two bearing races concentric. It would  be a good  idea to use tubing that is slightly too large on the OD, that way you can put the piece back in the lathe on a mandrel and turn the finished OD to exactly the right size and perfectly concentric with the bearings. If you really want to get wild...think about putting a fine thread on the ends and screwing the flanges on...then braze them. That will never come apart. You can use a thicker wall tubing than the original too...it won't effect anything as long as the axle passes through it and the added weight will be minimal.

[Luv2Wrench]

Took the plunge today and cut off the ends.  Chucked them in the lathe and turned off the outside.  It was pretty easy to do because when I started seeing bronze chips come off I could starting taking 2 thou passes until it was gone.  Once the tube was off it was pretty easy to see where the error is.  The hub is actually two parts.  The hub itself and then the flange for the wheel spokes.  It is that part that was installed incorrectly!!  In the last picture you can easily see how it isn't sitting square.  Note the left side is sitting low and you can see part of the hub while the right side is a bit high.  The good news is this shouldn't be a problem anymore since I've turned it down in the lathe.  I will order a 3.5" OD DOM tube with 1/8" walls.   I should be able to clean up the ends to get them to fit in the tube.  I'm going to visit an old school driveline shop tomorrow to see if they will braze the ends on.  They should have the experience but I'll carefully evaluate the shop when I go.  I don't want to have to cut the ends off again!

 

[JV Puleo]

They were probably "furnace brazed". I don't know if you can get that done today but it's a good idea to check with someone who has experience. If that proves a problem I did something similar once by making a "turn table" and turning the piece slowly while holding the torch on it until the entire end was up to heat. I did the same thing by attaching a piece to the rotary table and holding the torch on it while a friend turned the rotary table. In that case I bent a ring of brazing rod and laid it on the intersection between the two pieces. When it melted it was done. That way you don't take a chance of overheating it and burning all the zinc out of the brass. That's a problem when doing a large diameter because it's difficult to get the whole piece up to temp.

Edited August 24, 2023 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Luv2Wrench]

What kind of flux did you use and where did you put it? 

I'm thinking preheat the parts, try to dip them in flux, puts parts together, lay the rod (I'm thinking brass) around the joint and heat until it melts in.  

Should I use a Rosebud tip or maybe a #4 or #2?

[JV Puleo]

I would use a rosebud tip. I used a white powdered flux I got at the local welding supply.  I just sprinkled it on the seam. I don't know what was in it but likely mostly borax.

I'd bend a ring of 1/8 or 1/16 brazing rod around something round so that when it sits on the housing its more-or-less right on the seam between the two pieces. Then train the tip on the hub and turn it so that it heats up all around until the brass melts and flows into the seam.

Edited August 24, 2023 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Luv2Wrench]

Things are still moving forward at a reasonable pace.  Like most of you I've got a bunch of other stuff going on, daily drivers that need maintenance, house that needs to be blown up, err, I mean needs some work, etc, etc.  I'm still waiting on the DOM tube but I have everything else.  I painted more parts this weekend as well as adding some strengtheners to the front of the frame rails.  That involved hot riveting and while using the oxy-acetylene torch I noticed I'm about out of acetylene so now I need to get that filled up.

[Luv2Wrench]

Still making fairly steady progress.  Other stuff eats up a ton of time so while steady... the progress is slow. 

 

Got the leaf springs and axles hung.  Don't worry I will be doing something to the modern fasteners so they don't stand out so much.  I have a blackening system I'm going to try this weekend.  In addition, for the fasteners I make there is a company relatively close to me that will harden and blacken them.  They charge by the pound so I'll be using modern fasteners to hold everything together until I reach the end of the project.  I'll then take all the custom fasteners and get them hardened and blackened.  

 

Spent 2 hours driving to the nearest place that exchanges acetylene and I now have a fresh 75 cubic feet cylinder.  Probably enough to last me for quite some time. 

 

DOM tube should be here today but I doubt I'll get to it this weekend.  I still haven't figured out exactly how I'll hold it for brazing.  The simple approach would be to sit in on a rotary table but in that case the brazing would be going up.  I know it will wick but I'm not sure that is sufficient.  If you know... please inform me.

 

 

[JV Puleo]

Actually, the wicking is the perfect test and far more reliable than relying on gravity. When it flows you know it's right. When you do it the other way around you could get a lump of brass around one end of the interface that looks good but is weak. It's only when it wicks down into the seam that you know it's good...and, if it does that properly you'll likely be able to see it on the other side.

 

Edit...concentrate the heat at the base of the flange, that way you can see the edge and the brass will flow towards the hottest area.

Edited September 2, 2023 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[demco32]

A reward for all the effort and time invested in a project restoration is the good feeling you have when the car is finished.

 

[chistech]

It always seems like my oxygen is empty when I need my torches so I feel your pain! And when you go to refill the tank they tell you “ oh, this bottle is out of date and you need to buy a new one “! 😡

[Luv2Wrench]

1 hour ago, chistech said:

It always seems like my oxygen is empty when I need my torches so I feel your pain! And when you go to refill the tank they tell you “ oh, this bottle is out of date and you need to buy a new one “! 😡

I'm lucky in that Tractor Supply is great about exchanging cylinders and they're only about 45 minutes from me.

 

Had a "shop" day today, mostly the machine shop.  There were a dozen or so tasks that needed completing to get the machine shop more functional.  Silly stuff like covers on outlets, replacing some broken circuit breakers, rerouting some wiring to the VFD on the mill so the electrical box door would close, etc, etc.  I also took some time to get the Monarch Junior functional.  Didn't quite get it all done but pretty close.  I need another v-belt and pulley to get it 100% complete.  Was able to get the motor mounted and wired.  I also added a QCTP since it was missing its lantern post.  The Monarch is a pretty functional lathe as it has a 4-jaw chuck, 3-jaw chuck, 2 face plates and a taper attachment.  It is a light weight compared to the Hendey but should be nice for smaller work.  

I desperately need to add some more storage to the machine shop as my tooling and such is crammed in to what I have.  I'm going to try and work a couple weeks on the car and then a week on the shop until I get everything squared away.  There's always so much to do!!

[demco32]

My oxygen and acetylene bottle are mine, bought them.

When empty I just replace with full bottles, no one ask about a date on a bottle.

The supplier has to test the bottles for safety and there is a date on them, I get other bottles every time  go for full bottles.

Just pay for the gas.

There is also the possibility to rent bottles too but I find it expensive.

Purchase bottles  is a better option.

 

[Luv2Wrench]

I definitely made good progress getting the shop properly sorted over the Labor Day holiday.   I'm glad I took the time to do that. 

 

I made first chips with the Monarch Jr.  It is an 11" swing lathe with 1.5HP motor.  I still need to sort a few things out but I'll admit I was a little surprised at its lack of performance.  While it is probably light years better than a bench top import, it isn't in the same galaxy as the Hendey.  I was excited about the Monarch because it had a 4 jaw chuck and taper attachment.  Those are nice but they're nothing compared to the rigidity of the Hendey.  I'm going to go ahead and make the backplate for the Hendey so I can use the 4 jaw chuck I have for it.  It will still be nice to have another lathe in case I have something setup in the Hendey and need a lathe, otherwise I doubt I'll use it much.   I think the positive takeaway is that I'm now much more aware of the awesomeness of the Hendey.  

 

Edited September 6, 2023 by Luv2Wrench (see edit history)