322 nailhead

[Guest 54fins]

one unfortunate drawback of the nailhead is the valves. They are prone to poor oiling. In 55 they added filler caps on the valve covers, which probably helped alot when you did add oil, assuming you put it in on each side.:confused:

The 54 buick shop manual requests that you use a maximum of 20 wt oil. I don't know if subsequent shop manuals also require 20 wt, but I did have a fellow that ran a Buick dealer shop in the early 60's that valve failures were thier #1 repair and that running 20 wt makes a huge difference.

Old oil (reguardless of what type and wt) basically turns to sludge. When aquiring a used nailhead, the engine has to be de-sludged. You can wipe a bearing, but a stuck valve is somewhat catastrophic. The exhaust valve has to move fast to clear the piston. If it sticks just a hair, the piston hits it at a 45 degree angle. If you are real lucky, you rebuild the heads. In this case, the valve actually sheared off, then broke through the piston. Really sucks, as now a complete overhaul is is the only option. :eek:

Of course, de-sludging any old engine needs to happen but nailheads don't give you much room for error. Buick ended the nailhead design, but I still think they are very cool. I would definitely keep up with the oil changes religiously. My metric is if you can see the oil on the dipstick it needs to be changed. Notice the old sludgy oil dripping down the side. This was the school of hard knocks, I no longer start stored cars without first changing all of the fluids.:mad:

[JohnD1956]

What do you recommend for de sludging the engine?

[Guest NikeAjax]

When I had my engine rebuilt, the guy that honed it and boiled it out, said he'd NEVER seen an engine as plugged up as mine: with 30-years under his belt. After THREE boilings, I still had to go in with a really long screw driver and scrape. I think one of the main problems is way back when they didn't have detergent-oils. Case in point, my mentor always told me about how he'd get old oil and just let it sit for months and months, after that time, he'd have new oil: all the schmootz would settle to the bottom. To quote him, "Looked just like honey..."

Just my two cents,

Jaybird

[JohnD1956]

The reason I asked is because I had a lifter get noisy on my 78 wagon after doing the head gaskets last winter. The mechanic I dealt with suggested replacing a quart of engine oil with MArvel Mystery Oil. Basically replace the filter and add a quart of MMO. Run it for about 100 miles under varying conditions and then change the oil and filter. Even though I had the heads cleaned and tested for cracks and level decks, the oil turned black in that 100 miles and it sounded like the car was going to blow in the 10 mile ride to work, but when I changed the oil again it was like I had put in new lifters.

I was thinking of doing this with the 56 too, since I have not used that car a regularily as I should have. But I was a little worried about doing it since the oil stays clean and I don't seem to have any problems with the engine when I do run it.

[Guest 54fins]

Every old engine needs to be desludged to some extent. The old non-detergent oils were known for leaving alot of sludge, and a detergent oil can break it loose and plug a port. That may be what happened on my above engine (not to mention a few more over the years)

The ideal senario would be pull the motor and hose it down inside with hot diesel. Reality often doesn't allow for that. My take on it is get the lightest detergent oil, 5 10 or 20 wt. first pull the valve covers and oil pan. If not too sludgy, then I would run 20 wt and get the motor nice and warm. Toss in the mystery oil and whatever else you like, the hot oil will disolve all the old crap. Then change it again with what you normally run.

Often, the sludge can be very bad. However, you need to get the motor hot to break it up. I would clean out every bit you can physically with diesel. light enough to clean but it still lubricates. Then I would spin the oil pump from the distributor (if it's possible) and see if everything pressurizes and if you see oil around the valves. I would feel safe doing a Diesel purge off of the oil pump. some of the sludge turns to pieces of rubber, so you always have a chance that an oil port is plugged. An electric drill can pressurize the oil pump from the distributor hole, and you can rotate the motor by hand. You can also dump diesel down the valley cover on many v-8 engines and see if the lifters run free.

After a motor cleanup with diesel, you still risk a failure. I would try to soak the valve train with oil, then run the motor as above on a light grade motor oil. But I wouldn't race the engine, you have to assume some channels are plugged. I would warm it up, then let it sit hoping that oil flows back into any of the plugged ports. If you are real lucky, the hot oil will break them loose. after that oil change, I tend to notice the oil then get's very clear. If not, you may want to repeat a few times. Get some cheap detergent oil and it really doesn't cost much. But after you get the old sludge out, you may also notice more oil burn. The sludge can help seal up the rings and valve guides, but it has to go. If you are real lucky, you end up with a nice running engine. Often you find out that the motor was shot anyhow, and then you sieze a valve and end up with an even bigger overhaul. It's a crap shoot on old engines and the nailheads are likely to stick a valve. But you also know that you can't resist starting the darn engine and the above photo can be the result! If you turn the motor by hand and hit any resistance, assume that it will fail if you try to turn the motor with the starter. If you can get it to all turn nice, do plan on doing a couple of consecutive oil changes with a new filter.

[stealthbob]

Every old engine needs to be desludged to some extent. The old non-detergent oils were known for leaving alot of sludge, and a detergent oil can break it loose and plug a port. That may be what happened on my above engine (not to mention a few more over the years.

This was from 10 minutes of run time after an oil change from a sludged engine...:eek:

[Guest 54fins]

once it's sludged, it's a crap shoot if you have it all out. The old advice was never switch from non-detergent to detergent oil. All you can do is hope you dissolved it and flushed it out. I found pieces of sludge in the engine that actually turned into rubber and molded into cracks. It looked like home made silicon gaskets. I suspect one of those plugged the oil path to your main bearing. Even if you tried everything, there was little hope you could dissolve it or blast it out. Sometimes an engine is just ready to cash out and you can't do much other than tear it down and rebuild it.

[NTX5467]

I've always heard about the "breaking loose of sludge deposits" and such, but from what I've seen, that sounds a little far-fetched. I've also heard about the "Don't change to detergent oil . . ." comment, too. But . . .

It would seem that if an oil had THAT much detergent additive in it (which is really a group of compounds), then ANY engine with any time on it would be at risk for chunks of oil/gunk deposits breaking loose and clogging things up. If the hardened deposits were THAT hard, how would oil flowing over them penetrate and motivate pieces to fracture off and be circulated? I suspect that "sludge" will generally settle out in places with lower oil flow activity (i.e., lifter valley recessions, cylinder head depressions), but it can also build until it's quite substantial (as if the pushrods have just enough room to go up and down).

On the engine which has the oil which doesn't get dark too soon, that means there's little blowby getting past the rings, I suspect. It could also mean there's little detergent in it, too.

In cars I've purchased used, which generally had about 80K miles on them and appeared to be in good condition, I'd do an oil change and add a pint of Stewart Warner Alemite Oil Detergent to the fresh oil change. When it got "one quart low" later on, I'd add another pint of the detergent additive. When it got "one quart low" again, then it was usually close to the time it needed an oil change anyway. At least looking through the oil filler hole in the valve cover, the rocker shafts and such looked nice and clean, but oily.

Another "trick" would be to add one quart of ester-based synthetic oil to replace one quart of your normal oil change. The ester liquifies sludge and cleans things up, so I've read in the oil forum . . . which explained why when Chevrolet had their "cold start knock" issues on 5.7L V-8s, they recommended one oil change of Mobil1 (to get things cleaned up internally). When I read that service bulletin, I wondered what magical properties the Mobil1 had, until I read many years later that it was an ester-based oil and that ester liquified sludge. In more recent times, several Pennzoil products make claims about removing sludge from engines in one oil change . . . must have some ester-based things somewhere, it appears.

But for some of the "concrete sludge" y'all mention, only disassembly and "cleanouts" are the best-case things to do. For newer engine designs, with PCV and such, then an internal chemical cleanse might be better.

When I did a timing chain swap on my '77 Camaro 305, at 92K miles, when I removed the intake manifold (it was also getting one to accept a 4bbl intake, too), there was only thinner gray substances in the low spots of the lifter valley. On the heat crossover shield on the bottom side of the intake manifold, the "stalagtites" were very minimized compared to what was usually there. Some associates remarked as to how little was there for the mileage. Their next question was regarding oil change intervals and brand of oil. Oil change intervals, at that time, were usually 4000 miles. The oil, from the first oil change at 2500 miles, was Castrol GTX 20W-50.

The engine was running good when I had it removed and upgraded to a 5.7L that had been built, starting in the later 1980s. The main reason for the change was that all core plugs in the block were leaking coolant. The front two would require, best case scenario, the engine to be removed, so we just changed it. Mileage was 576K. Timing chain was Cloyes Plus Roller. Oil had been Castrol GTX, but with SynTec Blend toward the end. The lifter valley was darkened, but not corroded with deposits.

Soon after the engine change, the whole zddp issue came up. Oil was changed to Shell Rotella T 15W-40 and then to 5W-40 Rotella synthetic. Haven't looked inside to see how it's doing, but it should be fine . . . at least if the Shell propoganda pictures are to be believed.

I'm still skeptical about the chunky sludge, but I'm not going to say it isn't so, either.

In the www.bobistheoilguy.com forums, many posters have mentioned using a product like Auto-Rx to do "cleanses" or "flushes" to get things cleaned out before settling in with a preferred oil afterward. I've seen it, but haven't used it. GM used to have an engine cleaning "quart" additive which reputedly had been used by many older mechanics to clean things up before an engine overhaul. You put it in with a fresh oil change and then ran the engine at fast idle (or thereabouts) for a specified length of time, then drained the oil and did an oil change. This would have been for mechanics which didn't have access to a "hot tank" cleaner, typically.

Many thoughts . . .

NTX5467

[Guest 54fins]

excellent thoughts. It is easier to do regular oil changes and never let the sludge get started than remove it later. I notice 3 types of sludge- the grey gasket type that seems to settle in corners, the asphalt type and then "varnish". Working in the power industry, varnish is oxidized hydrocarbon. It loves to plate out on metal surfaces and it will shut down a power plant. you can see dark metal and that is the varnish building up. It will dissolve with a couple of oil changes. Also, ATF is similar to 10 wt oil and dissolves gunk very fast. The red stuff is a heavy dose of additives and detergents.

I use all mobil 1 synthetic in my "good" cars- with the exception of the Skylark. I am thinking about going synthetic in it too. I bought my boy a Jetta with a bad motor and tranny so he could learn about cars like I had to. One change with mobil 1 and it runs like new. Even brought the tranny back. That said, all oils have to be serviced. Sitting is the worst, and old buicks often spend years stored. The light ends evaporate and water makes acid. I suspect synthetics would also be better in long term storage, they don't have the light ends that evaporate off. But esters do make acid if water is present. Everything is a tradeoff.

If you can de-sludge an old engine, at least you can move the car around until you are ready to pull the engine. However, any car that spent alot of time sitting will have an extremely high risk of failure.

Here is a 92 Mercedes V12 with 130K miles. Probably never sat much, but the dark stuff indicates that someone got tired of the dealer hitting them up for $600.00 for an oil change. I used a mix of 20 wt and ATF to clean up the internals, then went to 10-40 mobil 1 syn. However, I doubt there was any of the asphalt stuff, just varnish. Older cars don't hit the RPM and thinner oil gets around better, I only run 20 wt in my nailheads. Note the crumbling oil filter- cellulose filters have a 1 year shelf life. Given you have to pull the mass airflow sensor to reach the filter, I suspect this filter was left in for a long time. Most nailheads seem to have a very old oil filter too.

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

A very effective way of getting gunk out of any older engine is to drain the crankcase, put a new filter in place then fill the crankcase with 5-1/2 quarts of Kerosene. Run the engine for 15-20 minutes a 1200 or so RPM after the engine has reached operating temperature. Shut down, drain, fill, and repeat with a new filter. Then after draining out the kerosene the second time install a new filter and fill the crankcase with a 50/50 mix of kerosene and either 20W or 30W HD detergent oil. Again run as before. Drain the crankcase and refill with either 20W or 30W HD detergent oil after replacing the filter.

This routine will usually clear crud from lifter orifices, oil galleries, drilled push rods, certain types of rocker arms, and rocker tubes (where applicable). It won't necessarily strip built up crud on the block's lower castings.

Before anyone doubts Kerosene will adequately lubricate the engine during this procedure, I have done it many times to free stuck or poorly pumping lifters. Kerosene is technically an oil and provides sufficient lubrication for such short run times.

The downside is a good clean out also removes crud that when gone may reveal the engine has other problems in need of being properly addressed.

Jim

Edited April 22, 2011 by Jim_Edwards (see edit history)

[NTX5467]

Is the kerosene filtered and reused? Just curious.

Back in the 1980s, a guy that started out washing cars for a L-M store, worked his way up to sales, purchased a L-M store near the OK border in TX. It was an established family-owned store. He also purchased the Pantera he'd always wanted, too.

One day, he went back into the shop to check on a trade-in Grand Marquis. What he found shocked him. The used car tech had the engine stripped of its "topside" and oil pan. He was washing the guts out with Varsol solvent, plus cleaning the oil pan (the beloved "double sump" pan with two drain plugs). The owner saw what he was washing out and was surprised. In that somewhat dusty area, if the oil wasn't changed or the owners lived out in "the country" on a dirt road, with so-so oil change maintenance, things ended up this way.

He observed that when they traded for the car, its engine sounded flaky, but no knocks or such. After it was all cleaned out, put back together with new gaskets, new oil and filter, run a while, then a fresh oil and filter change, it purrrrred like a new car (even if they were over 100K miles). After he saw the difference that procedure made, the investment was approved for whenever it was needed--no questions asked, just "part of the deal".

When I started doing my own oil changes, I decided that it would be good to let the oil drain until it just dribbled, then pour a fresh quart of oil into the engine and let it run out the drain plug, kind of a "low investment" flush of the bottom of the oil pan. The extra $2.00 or so was a good investment, I thought, for a "better drain". I also filled the new filter with oil, if it was one that went on somewhat vertically (rather than horizontally, which did get a little messy).

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[old-tank]

A freshly rebuilt nailhead (322) requires 7 quarts to fill...subsequent oil changes require 6 quarts to fill. That means that there is one quart retained in the engine passages, so you never get a complete change and that any additives or solvents will take many changes to be completely removed.

Willie

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

Is the kerosene filtered and reused? Just curious.

I've always put it into an appropriate container for later use in the parts washer. I've not found a need to filter as usually sufficient time passes for any suspended particles to drop to the bottom of the container before the kerosene is dumped into the parts washer. I prefer kerosene in the parts washer over most solvents that tend eat one's hide on contact.

Jim

[60FlatTop]

This is scary. It makes me think of all the stuff on the inside of my arteries. Don't pour "stuff" into your engine and loosen up all the crud. Especially if it replaces oil with fluids having no lubrication value.

Not a Buick, anyway!

[Guest 54fins]

very interesting thread. The first issue is a 60 year old engine inevitably has sludge. In 60 years, all oils degrade from either too much use or too little. It is a pretty safe bet to assume there is gunk in the engine.:eek:

If you rebuilt your motor, I would change the oil at least once a year and preferable fall and spring reguardless of how much you drive. Most old cars don't go over 5000 miles/ year. In this senario, you can keep the internals pristine. My oil is so clear in my rebuilt engine that I actually want to add a dye so I can see it on the dipstick. I'm really not worried about sludge.

Senario 2 is the non rebuilt motor. It has sludge. Like your arteries, sooner or later a piece will clogg something. The delima is if you don't want to rebuild, so you want to use up whatever life may be left. You can try not to disturb the sludge and you may get lucky. Never worked for me, but it's an option.

removing the sludge may buy you time. If it doesn't work, you were due for a failure anyhow. You need the thinnest possible solvent that can still lubricate. Kerosene is a better lubricant than a dry bearing, which probably has no oil because sludge is stopping it. I would personally use diesel, as diesel will lube an injection pump on a diesel. Kerosene will too, if it's cold. had I filled the above engine and ran it with diesel for oil, I may have still dropped the valve but there is a chance it could have freed up some circulation and I would have a usable 322 instead of a boat anchor. The down side would be the same result I achieved.:mad: Even if the motor smokes, at least you can drive it up on the car carrier or move it to wherever you store all your half-complete car projects. Once it siezes, you have 2 tons of metal to store or spend money on.

I would not do a diesel/Kerosene desludge on a rebuilt or newer engine (depending on how you define newer). But I would agree that the risk of sludge is far worse than the risk of using diesel, plus it's cheaper than any oil you can buy. Kerosene is expensive and getting hard to find. I would toss in a quart of ATF, as it will add lubrication and it has powerful detergents. Refineries now filter diesel finer than gasoline, diesel fuel is cleaner than new oil. You would be surprised how dirty new oil is, that's one more argument for synthetic.

Filtering oil is very expensive, only the expensive ones get extra filter steps. Diesel has been driven by the customers, IP pumps and injectors last much longer so the fuel suppliers reject diesel if it isn't clean. That's why diesel costs more than gas, it's actually cheaper to make but the specs are far tighter than gasoline or mineral motor oils:(