1970 OLDS 442 SHOULD I INVEST IN CORRECT ENGINE

[1937hd45]

Who would know the differance?

[The Old Guy]

The only difference in the engines is primarily the compression ratio. The 72 engine has lower compression and will run on lower octane fuel. the 72 engine also has heads that will run unleaded fuel without having a valve recession problem. The only reason to install the matching numbers engine is if you are into concours judging. Leave the engine in it and enjoy it. If you spend the bucks to find the correct one ,you will end up not driving the car.

[Guest]

MY 1970 442 HAS THE ENGINE OUT OF A 1974 442<BR>THE 455CI IS CORRECT BUT THE HP IS ONLY 250.<BR>SHOULD I INVEST IN A NEW CORRECT ENGINE AND WHERE CAN I FIND ONE OR DO I REBUILD THIS ENGINE TO INCREASE THE HP? DO YOU HAVE ANY ESTIMATE FOR THE PURCHASE OR THE REBUILD?<BR>I BOUGHT THIS CAR ASSUMING THAT THE ENGINE WAS CORRECT.

[Myron Williams]

Hi,<P>Don't forget that they changed the way they reported horsepower in the time between 1970 and 1972. The 1970 horsepower number is the gross horsepower, with no accessories or other types of losses. In 1971, they started to report the horsepower as net, and they typically dropped well over a hundred horsepower. <P>Your 1972 probably isn't nearly as underpowered as you thought...<P>Myron<P>

[Steve Moskowitz]

First of all what model 4-4-2 do u have? Pretty key to determining value. If your concern is authenticity, matching numbers for value, etc. you might wish to change engines if u can find one. The Oldsmobile club of America has a web site thqt might help you and is linked with this site. If all your concerned with is horsepower, then that can be corrected by a variety of methods too numerous to mention here.<P>a lot of the suppliers for cutlass parts have great technical support that can help u thru your concerns.<P>the horsepower ratings for '70 were 365 or 375 with the w-30 option.<P>Join the olds club! This year's national meet is in Lansing, mich from July 31-Aug4 and over 1500 cars are expected. It will be a non-judged meet that u can visit with tons of olds experts, parts suppliers and maybe even find the engine u may be looking for!

[Dave@Moon]

Runner,<P>I would <I>very</I> seriously consider trying to locate and install a correct engine for this car. The 1972 motor had 8.5:1 compression as opposed to the 1970's 10.5:1. The engines' horsepower ratings at the flywheel are at least 100 hp. lower in 1972. The 1972 motor is dramatically slower! Of course, the 1972 motor will run on pump gas, while you'll become quite proficient at blending octane additives if you go with the 1970 motor. (All of this information, and <I>tons</I> more can be found at <A HREF="http://www.442.com" TARGET=_blank>www.442.com</A> , a.k.a. Bryceman's Oldsmovile page.)<P>My brother and I just finished putting together a 1970 spec. W30 engine from the ground up. It was quite easy to find the pieces and assemble them. We bought a rebuilt short block from Advance Auto Parts, found a manifold and a set of "F" heads which we had rebuilt, and bought and assembled the rest of the pieces. <P>(By the way, when 1937hd45 asks "Who'd know?", the answer is anyone who's familiar with the proper head codes (A,B,C....) for the engine that's supposed to be in the car. The codes are very prominently displayed at the front top on each side, and comparing them to other cars like yours would make the difference obvious. Hopefully those who could tell would include any reasonably observant AACA judge, as the differences between the head types is fairly obvious.)<P>You should be able to put a correct engine together for little more than $1500. I think it would definately be worth it for this car.

[Guest]

Dave ~ Thanks for jumping in with your comment about 1937hd45's post, "Who would know.". A few days back I started to make a snide remark about the post, but refrained. How untypical of me. <P>'37 is an AACA judge and certainly should know why you don't switch engines. It's called authenticity and I certainly hope he doesn't judge engines. <P>A flip remark like his serves absolutely no useful purpose. <P>But that is just my opinion. ~ hvs

[1937hd45]

Just reread all the posts, and all the differences are internal. The head numbers may mean sonething at an Oldsmobile meet, but I don't think AACA will go crazy over them.Nobody checks car numbers while judging<BR>an AACA meet.

[Guest]

Runner-<BR> If you enjoy driving the car, save your money and have fun. If you want more pop, spend a little more money and have more fun. If wringing your hands over engine numbers is fun, find the correct engine.

[rocketraider]

Where can you find a set of gennie F castings and a date coded 1970 W455 aluminum inatke manifold for $1500? much less build the whole engine _properly_ for that? <P>Last time I looked, the manifold alone goes for $600-1000. F heads (and D for that matter) aren't any cheaper. Add $350 for repop W-Z exhaust manifolds and $400 or better for a correct 0256 or 0258 carb, and if you ain't got all the goodies in hand, you'll lay out two grand minimum just to get the essential W30 stuff.<P>If the 999-point (sorry, there ARE no 1000-pointers, and I've judged OCA long enuff to know) car is not what you're after, keep yer 1974 block, find a set of E head castings, upgrade pistons and cam and have fun with the car.

[Dave@Moon]

Rocketraider,<P>Maybe some of us just live right. And then again maybe we're not worried about date coding! We're talking about 400 point AACA judging here. <P>In my opinion, date coding of components that are already proper for the car is just a way to make the process more expensive and painful, and thereby even more elitist than the hobby has already become. I've never been a member of a club that uses date coding in judging, including 6 national marque clubs.<P>We bought our "F" heads and manifold used (but good) at Carlisle for $250 (I think, it was about 5 years ago). We knew it was a bargain, maybe it was better than we thought. My brother had them redone at his favorite machine shop, and that cost him less than $300. Add that to a 40% empolyee discount for the short block and other pieces (he's a manager for Advance), and you've got yourself a W30. I guess without the discount it'd cost us a little over 2 grand.<P>Even if it costs twice that much, I don't know of a value guide that wouldn't deduct more than that for an incorrect engine in a true 442, even if it is a non-matching number motor. And I know I'd enjoy the extra 100 hp alone enough to make the investment.

[rocketraider]

Dave, the date coding reference was for the difference in the 1970 and 1971-72 intake manifolds. That would get picked up on at an OCA show real quick these days, and I know they're checking carb #s on W30 cars too. I feel the same as you about Julian date coded components, mainly because cars _are_ serviced, and if a component was replaced at the dealer from GMPD stock, dates go out the window.<P>I do think our friend with the wrong year engine needs to know what he might be up against in a critical judging situation, when the difference between a first place and Best of Class is often determined by such things. I don't think that concerns him much though.<P>Myself- I'd build on what he's got. Odds are the reman you got from Advance wasn't close to a correct year block but they can be ordered to your internal parts specs if you know the right way to order. That's what my buddy who is an AA district manager tells me, anyway.<P>And congratulations on scoring those parts cheap. Not every day that can be done.

[Dave@Moon]

A spec order is what he placed. And guess what, we lucked into a 1970 block, too (at least according to Cars & Parts' Number Series book)! I certainly wouldn't want to count on that one to happen again, though.<P>Now if I only had that kind of luck with <I>my</I> car!

[Dave@Moon]

Actually, as I recall, there are visual differences beyond just the numbers on the heads. I may be wrong, but I think the PCV valve and thermostat mounting varies slightly. There are also additional vaccuum pieces as well. <P>Also the "number" (actually a single large capital letter) is very prominently displayed on the casting. In fact when shopping for "F" heads one has to very careful not be taken in by someone who's gotten ahold of a much more common set of "E" heads and gotten creative with his die grinder!

[Steve Moskowitz]

Lots of great info guys but it sure would help to know what "runner" is going to use the car for! I think that his intended use would go a long way in determining what he should do. From the post it does not seem his concern was judging but depending on the car and its rarity or lack theroeof he may want to pursue the correct parts. By the way, if any of you know of a 70 convertible, red with white interior and a "driver" let me know if it is for sale. A prominent sports broadcaster is looking for one and it be cool to see him get in the hobby.