PreWar Mercedes Benz

[tilomagnet]

Here are three(?) 1935 short tail Special Roadsters with the set-back engine configuration.

 

Anyone have the s/n? Anyone know the current whereabouts? 2nd pic is a rare RHD short tail roadster. 1st and 3rd pic may or may not be the same car with different interiors.

Edited August 5, 2016 by tilomagnet (see edit history)

[540K]

The midde photo shows a radio aerial and chrome trim around the exhaust pipes on the hood (bonnet). The bumper(s) don't appear to have any rubber. There is also something odd about the apron area - looks like some kind of bracket, and only one trumpet horn. Five lights in the front (plus the fender lights). Body colored wheels. All those things pretty well set it apart, but could have been changed during a restoration.

 

The third car doesn't have a stone guard, otherwise I'd say it's the Prym car. Maybe the top car is the Prym car with different color leather.

 

Have you looked in Melin's books for these cars? 

[540K]

Speaking of "low-door" special roadsters, does anyone know the chassis number of the brown one in the M-B Museum?

[tilomagnet]

Thanks for responding, 3rd car is not the Prym one as it has a set-back engine...

 

See the photo and check the distance between the door and the rear fender also.

 

 

[tilomagnet]

Heres another (unknown to me) 540K, apparently a third 1937/38 RHD Spezial Coupe. I thought there were two of them, the ex Lyons car (maroon) and the dark blue one. Wheres the bright red one located today? 

Edited August 6, 2016 by tilomagnet (see edit history)

[alsancle]

The Day/Friggens 500k SR is a set back car.  Is that one of the three posted above?   Somewhere in my vast piles of junk I have a picture of a RHD Special Coupe taken in England in the late 40s early 50s.

[Davlet]

Is that coupe from Vegas collection?

 

[tilomagnet]

I dug out my Melin II book and it does answer most questions as to the S/Ns 

 

- 1st pic: red short tail LHD roadster w/ grey interior is 123772

- 2nd pic: red short tail RHD roadster w/ black interior is 123702

- 3rd pic: Prym car look alike but w/ set back engine: ? no obvious match in Melin -> anyone have a newer photo of the Bob Day car?

 

- 4th pic: bright red RHD coupe is most likely 130942

- 5th pic: dark blue LHD coupe is 154139

- 6th pic: maroon LHD coupe is 130944

 

On page 214/5 in Melin II there are photos of another 500K coupe s/n 130899 (must be one of very last 500Ks) that looks pretty identical to the three above except in lacks the rear spats. It almost looks like a twin of 130942 but there are some small differences indeed.So it seems there are actually 4 Spezial Coupe survivors plus the Caracciola car.

[540K]

The second of Joe Johnson's Special Roadster replicas is on eBay. Bidding has reached $78,000 so far, with reserve not met. It's being offered by a dealer, but I don't know if it has ever been sold (the dealer refused to answer). The first car got a high bid of $450K two years ago (more than double my opinion of its value, so what do I know). Joe said he was going to ask $1M for the second car. It's a nice looking car, much better than any of the kits, but you could pick it apart on details. Better than the kits, but not nearly to the level of Prahl or Nawrocki rebodied cars, and of course the chassis is modern with a 560SL engine. If I was going to this much trouble on a modern chassis, I'd make it much more powerful with beefed up suspension so it could really be driven hard.

[540K]

Thank goodness for Jan Melin!!  It's a shame all of Melin's research files went to DBAG, but he had no way to know back then that DBAG would prohibit access to future historians.

[tilomagnet]

I guess they are afraid the fakers will use the information and try to resurrect cars, i.e. S/Ns that have been lost to history....

 

 

[540K]

9 hours ago, tilomagnet said:

I guess they are afraid the fakers will use the information and try to resurrect cars, i.e. S/Ns that have been lost to history....

 

 

Yes, that's apparently DBAG's argument, and I understand it. I just don't agree with it. I think the more public information there is about these cars, the better the marketplace is protected. If a car shows up with a VIN that no one has any record of since WWII, the buyer would then know that there better be a clear history of ownership. It would also help potential buyers to know what body style the known VINs had from the factory. Other marques have almost complete, public records of every chassis (Duesenberg comes to mind immediately). It would be extremely difficult to fake a "lost" Duesenberg because there is an extensive and public catalog of each chassis.

 

Yes, if from this hypothetical catalog someone knows chassis number xxxxxx left the factory as an innenlenker, and the car has not surfaced in 70 years, that would aid a criminal in creating a "barn find." But it also aids the marketplace because he can't make it into a more valuable roadster. Okay, say xxxxxx is a "lost" roadster; at least the potential buyer knows he needs to research it thoroughly, and perhaps the fact that it could be a replica will stick to the car like stink on Shinola and warn other prospective buyers. That way the value should adjust accordingly.

[tilomagnet]

I agree somewhat but I dont think you can compare it to Duesenberg, as surely many of the MBs had a much more convoluted history. I would guess that probably ~ 30% didnt survive WWII which creates plenty of potential to "re-discover" long lost cars. Of course there are some legitimate cars that have been recovered decades later, mostly from the then Soviet Union and their successor states. I would guess DBs fears mostly result from the situation around the SSKs, where there are maybe 8-10 legitimate examples with continuous history and the rest are bitsas, conversions from S or SS or blatant fakes. 

 

Is Jan Melin still around? A couple years ago several users posted here that have been in contact with him. Maybe he would join if someone points him to this thread?

 

 

[alsancle]

The Duesenberg is a special animal because they only built 500 and Ray Wolf was documenting them in the1940s and others such as Randy Ema or Chris Summers can tell you about the bolt color on a particular chassis.   The cloud of war did not descend directly on the continental U.S with the Soviet's taking cars.   You have almost 80% more 500k/540k chassis to track.

[540K]

On 8/6/2016 at 10:40 AM, tilomagnet said:

 

On page 214/5 in Melin II there are photos of another 500K coupe s/n 130899 (must be one of very last 500Ks) 

I show a couple of 540K's with lower chassis numbers, and one Autobahn Kurrier with a higher chassis number that is listed as a 500K with a 540K replacement engine. Other than that one, 130899 is the highest 500K chassis I have found.

Edited August 7, 2016 by 540K (see edit history)

[roadster36]

On ‎5‎-‎8‎-‎2016 at 11:25 PM, 540K said:

Speaking of "low-door" special roadsters, does anyone know the chassis number of the brown one in the M-B Museum?

To bad , as you wrote this ,i was next to the brown special roadster at the Classic Days at Schloss Dyck Germany

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2016 by roadster36 (see edit history)

[roadster36]

Other pictures Classic Days at Schloss Dyck Germany

200 cab B long wheelbase

[roadster36]

 

Quote

 

 

[roadster36]

[roadster36]

lovely sound of the compressors

 

IMG_6807.mp4

Edited August 8, 2016 by roadster36 (see edit history)

[tilomagnet]

Two similar late 540K coupes - pic 1 & 2 are likely the same car when new and as found. 3rd pic is another car with same style but with some differences (bonnet, windscreen etc.)

[alsancle]

The first two are almost certainly the same car.

 

I think the brown 500k SR is pictured at the back of Melin II.

[alsancle]

Those that know these cars were probably aware the Mayfair Special Roadster was fired damaged in Canada 40 years ago but this story goes in to quite a bit more detail than what I knew.  The car is spectacular in person and it is great that it wasn't parted out.

 

http://www.prewarcar.com/magazine/previous-features/rescued-from-the-fire-mercedes-540k-mayfair-roadster-029861.html

[Davlet]

1929 Mercedes 710 SS 

Did anyone have seen ???

IS it real?

 

[540K]

Are any of you who are active in this forum going to be at Pebble Beach? Maybe we can meet at some point during the week.

[alsancle]

Craig, we are definetly having a beer.  

 

Dav, is that car pictured in the Erdmann and Rossi book?  Very nice.

[vintagerodshop]

On August 15, 2016 at 5:18 PM, 540K said:

Are any of you who are active in this forum going to be at Pebble Beach? Maybe we can meet at some point during the week.

@540K I will be there. Staying at the Portola. 604 996 8801 

regards

Kirk Stevenson

[zup]

Hello again,

 

 

until today I thought the 540k Cabriolet B Body I own belongs to the Prahl converted Chassis 169394 - this is now proofed to be not true

 

 

Another candidate is the wine red Nawrocki Conversion with the Chassis "408338" ( which is not a regular 1938 Chassisnumber)

 

 

Do you now if there is any other Nawrocki conversion build on a 1938 car?

 

 

Id like to find the owner of the chassis to give the Chance to save the original body - sadly my partners decided to sell - so if I cant find the owner in a reasonable time I have to tear apart the body - which would be a shame!

 

 

So my question:

 

 

- Which other 1938 Cabriolet B conversions do you know besides the mentioned Prahl and Nawrocki?

 

- The Bodynumbers are given linear so there should be a correlation between chassis an body numbers?

 

-  If you have data/information of a car with a Bodynumber around 843+/-xxx please send me via pm

 

- Please feel free to forward my contact if you know the owner

 

 

Regards from Germany,

Richard

 

PS: The body I own is a 1938 540K with Bodynumber  843304

 

 

Edited August 18, 2016 by zup (see edit history)

[540K]

Found out this morning that there were only 2 MB entries for Pebble Beach this year, so there is no MB class. One is a Cab A and the other might be a 320, but I havent gotten a good look at it yet.

[Davlet]

Craig/ AJ

It should be Maybach there too can you guy make some photos please

 

[540K]

The other MB at Pebble is a 290 Cab A, not a 320. 

[alsancle]

Here is the 540k.  It is RHD.

[Davlet]

What a beauty 

 

[K8096]

I believe this is the 290 Cab A.  3rd car back in green.    

 

Edited August 20, 2016 by K8096 (see edit history)

[vintagerodshop]

16 hours ago, Davlet said:

Craig/ AJ

It should be Maybach there too can you guy make some photos please

 

Maybach sold for 975,000 plus buyers premium. nice car but a little tired.

[540K]

yes, the 290 is the green duotone in the photo above. It has been in the MB tent this week alongside the big white Maybach, 300S, the just-revealed new MB Maybach coupe, etc. The latter looks like a 20-year-old's design that belongs at SEMA, but it is sexy. Some would probably call it a penismobile.

[K8096]

Here's a better photo.

 

[Davlet]

On 8/20/2016 at 3:26 AM, vintagerodshop said:

Maybach sold for 975,000 plus buyers premium. nice car but a little tired.

Wowwwww 

Why people just do not take offers. That offer was on table 3 years ago from my client

Wow

[alsancle]

The Maybach was bigger in person than the photos. More impressive than what I expected.  The 290 was a really nice car. The black 540k got the Mercedes award.

 

[vintagerodshop]

4 hours ago, Davlet said:

Wowwwww 

Why people just do not take offers. That offer was on table 3 years ago from my client

Wow

i was the runner up bidder for a client. Just did not move fast enough. I really liked that car. I did have a little more success at gooding today on a Cab C.