PreWar Mercedes Benz

[540K]

Fredriksen collection includes a 500K Spezial Roadster with covered spare.  An article in Germany says this car was rebodied by Wagner, estimate 1.2M Euro. 

 

Edited July 12, 2015 by 540K (see edit history)

[540K]

On the subject of the above-referenced roadster with covered spare, I am interested to know the opinions of you scholars out there regarding how many long-tail Special Roadsters with covered spares there were/are. I have read in various places:

a. there were six 540K's

b. there are three 540K's

c. there were six to eight, two 500K's and the rest were 540K's.

 

I think perhaps all three of these statements are correct, though the writer is often sloppy. In other words, there were probably eight, six were 540K's of which three survive, and two were 500K's, neither of which survive. The body style came in February 1936 at the Berlin auto show before the 5.4 litre engine in April -- the "540K" designation not being used until the Paris Motor Show in September. I think that explains most of the auction catalogs and journalists' statements, almost all of which refer strictly to three or six 540K's because only 540K's come up for sale (the ex-Jack Warner car, and the ex-Sam Mann car). Three vs. six is, I believe, writers not being careful to distinguish how many survive vs. how many were made.

 

Anyone know contrary evidence regarding how many were long-tails with covered spares, or where the third (or any other) survivor is? I know the 500K at the Kemp Museum is rebodied (and sad to hear the museum closed). Franz Prahl did at least two rebodied cars, and Cass Nawrocki has worked on two with covered spares (both are still unfinished). There is a rebodied silver with red interior and covered spare -- I don't know who did it, maybe Prahl -- sold by RM in 2006.

Edited July 10, 2015 by 540K (see edit history)

[Davlet]

some of the cars are not original  they are redoded from sedans.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Not a Full Classic but nice feature on a 170 roadster restored by mr. Magno in the latest issue of the MBCA Star magazine. Beautiful car and deserving of the story as well as the magazine cover.

[540K]

Cab C going to auction in September - Bonham's Chatilly sale.

[alsancle]

So wouldn't you say the 440k to 550k estimate is awfully low considering the public sales of the last 5 years?   Btw,  always loved the black wheels with chrome weight covers.

[Davlet]

So on that cab c so far what I think 

Car is not in a great shape not running a lot of Photoshop involved 

But the most reason why it 

€400,000 - 500,000
US$ 440,000 - 550,000

​Usually made for collectors who is thinking on making few hundred thousand $$$  on fast deal

so auction houses by estimating low trying to get people onsite so they can buy other cars.

With this condition I can tell you last bit will be around 800K and 1 mil. night not hard to say but I am 100% sure it will be sold more than 700$ 

[Davlet]

not sure why I cant post some photos hmmm....

[alsancle]

Thanks  Dav, didn't realize it wasn't running.   Looks great in the glossy photos.

 

Btw,  the Maybach is a much nicer user image!

[Davlet]

Thanks sir

   

[Davlet]

finally 

Edited July 14, 2015 by Davlet (see edit history)

[alsancle]

You don't think it would run well on 7 cylinders?     

[Davlet]

     

[Davlet]

should be fine now

Edited July 14, 2015 by Davlet (see edit history)

[alsancle]

Interesting market analysis on rebodied special roadsters:

 

http://www.gizmag.com/1938-mercedes-benz-540k-special-roadster-nawrocki-auction/38375/

[alsancle]

SS for sale in Germany:  http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/dealer/mercedes-benz/ss/1710762.html

[540K]

Interesting market analysis on rebodied special roadsters:

 

http://www.gizmag.com/1938-mercedes-benz-540k-special-roadster-nawrocki-auction/38375/

 

Yes. I guess you saw my comments there. Saturday's sale and Frederiksen Collection sale in September will tell the tale, particularly given the Artcurial no-sale in January (though not nearly as nice a car). I would love to be proven wrong that Auctions America won't have the same caliber bidders as the majors. Maybe coming before the Monterey sales everyone will have money burning a hole in their pockets this weekend.

 

In the article he suggest a real long-tail roadster would now be up to $15M, and I don't disagree. He predicts the rebodied car at 10-15% of $12-15M, which could put it anywhere from $1.2M to $2.25M. He hasn't really gone out on a limb with that wide a range. I still predict $1.5M high bid, and no sale unless it reaches $1.7M. 

Edited July 16, 2015 by 540K (see edit history)

[540K]

So wouldn't you say the 440k to 550k estimate is awfully low considering the public sales of the last 5 years?   Btw,  always loved the black wheels with chrome weight covers.

 

If it sells for less than $550K, it would be the least expensive Cab C at auction since 2005, I believe. That was an unrestored 500K, and the least expensive 500K or 540K in the past 10 years.  I agree with Davlet's prediction of $700K.

[540K]

$1.87M for the rebodied 540K Special Roadster. Very surprising from what I observed of the auction. It looked like only about 50% of the cars were selling at all, and the ones I saw were mostly at or below the lower end of the estimate range. It appeared a lot of sellers were lowering their reserves since bidding across the board was not meeting estimates. The 540K went up to $1.6M and stalled, the reserve was lifted and two more bids got it to $1.7M + commission = $1.87M.

[alsancle]

I would say the 540k market is strong - that must have made you feel good Craig.   The car market is very different depending on what it is you are trying to sell.

[roadster36]

Craig,

 

What kind of paint did you used on the chassis?

and is it gloss, satin of matt?

I make some progress on my roadster.

Sandblast the chassis in 3 weeks from now.

I try to restore the car complete Original.

Noticed there are almost no correct 170 roadsters any more.

Most of the mistakes i have seen are technical

wrong engine (post war 170 va or 170s) wrong cylinderhead (must be cast iron instead of aluminium) waterpump (it must be an open one) wrong airfilter , wrong Masterbreake cylinder (must be a round one)

Wrong airfan (must be a steel one and not the later alu fan)

 

Jan

[roadster36]

Thanks Craig,

I asked Henry the same question.

His answer was also semi gloss (he used Sikkens Rally black and epoxy primer underneeth)

The engine block is an other interesting point.

At a lot of factory pictures you can see the engine block is grey or red.

Question is , did the prepare the chassis for the photo with differend collours ?

Edited July 19, 2015 by roadster36 (see edit history)

[alsancle]

This one is pictured in the Erdmann & Rossi book.  A 500k.

[540K]

So on that cab c so far what I think 

Car is not in a great shape not running a lot of Photoshop involved 

But the most reason why it 

€400,000 - 500,000

US$ 440,000 - 550,000

​Usually made for collectors who is thinking on making few hundred thousand $$$  on fast deal

so auction houses by estimating low trying to get people onsite so they can buy other cars.

With this condition I can tell you last bit will be around 800K and 1 mil. night not hard to say but I am 100% sure it will be sold more than 700$ 

 

There seems to be a significant disparity between Davlet's comment and the now-released auction information. Bonham's says the car is restored, but there is no arguing with the missing spark wire in the photo. I'll see what Bonham's has to say. Dav - where did you get your condition information? Maybe it's more reliable than the auction house's sales pitch. Thanks.

[alsancle]

This car was owned by David Keith in the 1950s.  I spoke with Dave a number of times 10 or 15 years ago about a different 540k.  Here is a picture of it when he owned it plus a story:

 

 

http://www.mercedesheritage.com/2011/10/%E2%80%9Cgood-old-113658%E2%80%9D/

Edited July 22, 2015 by alsancle (see edit history)

[Davlet]

Found on line for sale 190k$ 

1934 Mercedes-Benz 290-C Cabriolet

 

[Davlet]

There seems to be a significant disparity between Davlet's comment and the now-released auction information. Bonham's says the car is restored, but there is no arguing with the missing spark wire in the photo. I'll see what Bonham's has to say. Dav - where did you get your condition information? Maybe it's more reliable than the auction house's sales pitch. Thanks.

 

One of my friend have seen car in person 

[alsancle]

 

Found on line for sale 190k$ 

1934 Mercedes-Benz 290-C Cabriolet

 

 

 

Wow.

[540K]

This car was owned by David Keith in the 1950s.  I spoke with Dave a number of times 10 or 15 years ago about a different 540k.  Here is a picture of it when he owned it plus a story:

 

 

http://www.mercedesheritage.com/2011/10/%E2%80%9Cgood-old-113658%E2%80%9D/

 

I remember reading that article several years ago. Now it's up for auction. I wonder if Dave ever found out about the car.

[alsancle]

Dave seemed like a nice guy.  I know he was looking for it but don't know if he ever found it.  

 

Here is a picture of my Uncle Ted's late series Special Roadster.  I might have already posted it.  He owed it for a few months in 1965 before returning it to Nyack since he thought it was a piece of junk. 

 

He traded it towards Duesenberg J292 that had just been brought back from South America where it was used as a race car.   Not a great trade although 292 sold within the last couple of years for around 1.2 million dollars.   Those late series Special Roadster have to bring around 4 million I would guess.  Although Randy and I are not in 100% agreement on this,  J292 was supposed to have the backup engine from the Mormon Meteor installed in it.  Note the special twin carb blower.  The side shot is what it looked like early in its racing career in South America.

[alsancle]

Here is a Special Roadster in the Harrahs Collection circa 1975.

[540K]

I am looking for someone who has the Hans Liska Mercedes art books from the 1950's. I am trying to determine which of the three volumes have each of these two images. I believe one is in the 1953 book and one in the 1955 book, but there is conflicting information online. Thanks for any help.

Edited August 6, 2015 by 540K (see edit history)

[alsancle]

http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/22717/lot/235/

 

So how did we miss this?   Dav?   One of my favorite 320s and probably a one off.   The Dragone brothers did a lot of work to get it to this point and it probably needs a full restoration but a great great car.

 

A 3,405cc 3,300mm wheelbase 1938 Mercedes-Benz 320, series W142/II, it has possibly unique "Kombination Roadster" coachwork by the Mercedes-Benz coachworks at Sindelfingen responsible for the monumental Special Roadsters on 500K and 540K chassis. Its 3,300mm wheelbase in slightly longer than the standard 540K's 3,290mm. Its coachwork combines roadster features with a cabriolet A style top that folds atop the rear bodywork.

The interior is appointed as a 500K or 540K would be with mother of pearl instrument panel, banjo spoke steering wheel and opening panels in the steeply raked vee windshield. Its features – Bosch headlights and fog lights, fitted luggage, recessed rear deck spare wheel and tire with a chrome cover, backup light, dashboard-mounted radio – mirror those in Mercedes-Benz's supercharged eights. It rides on steel wheels with hubcaps and blackwall tires.

The hood is shorter than an eight's, appropriate for the shorter six-cylinder engine under it, but the passenger compartment sits in a more balanced position midway on the chassis giving it more subtle proportions.

Its history is known only from 1948 when it was bought in Germany by an American serviceman and brought to Connecticut. Sold to another Connecticut resident in the early 50's, it was driven for a short time – there is a 1953 Connecticut safety inspection sticker on the windshield – and then tucked away until it was discovered in 2012 and acquired from the owner's estate.

Since then it has been sympathetically serviced in order to retain its marvelous originality. There is some lacquer repaint on the burgundy and red body, estimated to be 65% original paint. The chrome and trim items are original and have never been off the car. Mechanically gone through to return it to running, driving condition, it has as much as possible been left in as-found condition with the faults – aged paint, deteriorated chrome, cracked upholstery, fragile top – expected of its history. The body is impressively sound and by all appearances the engine has never been out of the chassis. The starter recently failed, but is being rewound and rebuilt and will be supplied to the new owner if not ready by the date of sale.

Sindelfingen-bodied Mannheim-built Mercedes-Benzes are not just rare, they are all but nonexistent. Finding one so complete, so thoroughly equipped, in open Kombination Roadster coachwork is cause for celebration among classic car collectors.

This is, of course, a Classic Car Club of America Full Classic™ and one of the most significant preservation class discoveries in recent years.

[Davlet]

Hello

But looks like it wasn't sold

[alsancle]

Listed in SCM as selling post block for 750k.

[540K]

There's a nice 320N Cab A for you in the Frederiksen auction next month. 

 

The Prahl-Wagner rebodied roadster is estimated at $950K to $1.3M. The trim looks better than on the unsold Artcurial car in January, also by Prahl. This one has the Prahl shortcuts too - no writing desk under the passenger glove box. No Willy-Vogel lube pump on the firewall. No jack. Covered spare is a nice touch. Compared to the Nawrocki car that sold for $1.87M last month, I'd say $1.3M is right because of those flaws.  I don't think the market shows a definitive discount for 5-litre vs. 5.4 litre in Special Roadsters. All things otherwise being equal (which isn't the case here), everyone would take the 5.4, but I don't see a significance like there is with the 3.8-litre. 

[roadster36]

Craig,

I have a few Liska art books.

I take a look later this week.

[Henry Magno]

Thank you to Steve Mack for your complement on the 170 V Roadster in The Star. Me and my crew are very proud of that car. Jan, you asked about that factory picture of of the 170 V with the engine clearly not black. When I did my own car some time ago, I was convinced that they used a red/orange engine paint on some cars, since I had seen some original smaller cars that way. I've also seen some 320's with green engine paint. Since I wasn't sure about the 170 V Roadster I painted it black. You are right about getting all the bits correct, obviously there is a postwar engine in the roadster. The owner has since acquired a pre-war engine and transmission, so if he or the next owner want to change it they can. Sometimes you just have to work with what you have and do what the customer wants. I can assure you though, that many other aspects will pose far greater challenges than whether all the mechanical parts are correct.

[Henry Magno]

I'd like to update the forum on some developments since I posted about the replica 320 Cab A long bodies. One of the specialists from RM reached out to me after seeing that post here and I provided him with a synopsis of what to look for on these cars, plus some additional pretty conclusive documentation. The result was that the 320 in the upcoming RM Pebble Beach auction has been withdrawn. As I said earlier, the blue one at Amelia, sold at Bonhams by Arthur Bechtel last year I'm convinced is a replica. Have a look at http://arthur-bechtel.com/en/classic-cars/current-vehicles/.

The 290 Roadster they admit was built from scratch. However, the 290 Cab A long, and 3 320 Cab A long are also replicas. The dark blue one I believe is the one at Amelia Island, although I suppose it could be another in the same colors.

 

So I notice with interest this so called "320N Cab A" at the upcoming Bonhams Frederiksen auction. Firstly it's misidentified as a Cab A when it's really configured as a Combination Coupe. SInce the Combi Coupe is extremely rare, last I knew only three existing, mine, the museum car, and a third car from Lithuania I believe, I'm surprised that, if the auction car is real, why it wouldn't be identified as a combination coupe. 

 

I met the owner of the Lithuania car in my shop some years ago. His car did not have a hardtop and we discussed copying mine for his car. I have a few pictures of this car and I believe it was real, since it was too rough to be fake.  But it was intact enough to see that it was a real car, not just a pile of parts. I did hear that possibly a copy or copies of this car were being made. Interesting that it says this car was restored in Lithuania.

 

I really haven't studied the pictures of the auction car enough to say anything conclusively, but I do notice that the door windows appear to be the wrong shape giving a heavier look to the hard top.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Henry Magno (see edit history)

[540K]

Henry, the "320N" wouldn't be the only replica in the Frederiksen collecton, as the Spezial-Roadster is honestly described as a Wagner chassis and a Prahl body. So I don't think it's going to come as a surprise if the 320 is also. I'm glad there are still folks with expertise exposing the truth. I am not expert on any cars, but I'm trying to develop some knowledge of the 500K/540K's.