1936 or 1937 Packard?

[Guest Dave D]

I'm looking to add my first Packard to my collection and I'm curious on the pros and cons between the 1936 and 1937 Twelves.

Care to offer your experience or suggestion?

[1935Packard]

Welcome, Dave D.

I only have experience with the '35s, which are essentially identical to the '36s. But my understanding is that the '37s ride much better, and as a result are considered somewhat more desirable. The main benefit of the '36s seems to be the wire wheels, which a lot of people like and were no longer available on the '37s.

[Guest Dave D]

I have to say I have a real soft spot for the wires wheels. But there is a lot to say for a independent front end and juice brakes. And what about that chassis lube system, what is your experience with that?

[1935Packard]

My experience with the Bijur system is mixed. If the car has it and its working well, it should last and not cause any trouble. On the other hand, if the car has been sitting awhile and the Bijur system needs to be overhauled -- as was the case with my car -- it's pretty expensive to get working smoothly again (and on the whole easier to just to plug it up and have everything lubed directly on a semi-regular basis). But others here have a lot more experience than I do, so I would wait to see what others say.

[Guest Silverghost]

Dave~ I have worked on many Bijur Full Chassis lube systems~

In my opinion they are fantastic !

If the car has been sitting it takes a fair bit of work to get them un-plugged and up and runnng. If you do this work yourself it just takes time~

If you have to pay someone else to do the cleaning & un-plugging it can be a very costly repair.

The lines will clog-up after decades of non use~

The drip-plugs have a felt wick or gause inside them that always needs to be removed and replaced ! These are the first things that plug-up.

Rebuilding the pump is an easy fast job!

Those that disconnect a Bijur lube system are just lazy in my opinion and do not want to put in the necessary restoration time; or don't wish to spend the money for this professional repair~

The other objection I hear about the Bijur full chassis lube system is that when your car is parked in your garage the system always drips dozens of small spots of lube oil on your garage floor !

We have lived with this dripping issue for years~ I would rather have a properly lubed bearing than a dry and worn one any day!

As for me~ I love the Bijur Full Chassis Lube systems !

One shot or two of the Bijur lube pump & presto~~~ 45+ chassis lube points automatically lubed !

It does not get any better or easier to lube an entire chassis than that !

Edited December 15, 2010 by Silverghost (see edit history)

[Owen_Dyneto]

Dave D, perhaps you already know this but the most significant difference between the 36 and 37 Senior Packards is that the latter have independent front suspension and hydraulic brakes; the former have beam front axle on dual leaf springs, and the rather excellent Bendix (but time-consuming to adjust properly) mechanical brakes. Both have vacuum brake boosters.

Bijur was eliminated when IFS was adopted.

[Dave Mitchell]

Both are great cars - I own cars from each series. There are subtle styling differences depending on body style, and preference there probably comes down to individual preference. Some Packard guys won't hardly look at the 37s and newer, and feel that the 35/36s are closer to the 32 - 34s, some guys won't drive anything without hydraulic brakes, and I feel both viewpoints are shortsighted. The power brakes on the 35/36s are fine as long as they are set up and adjusted properly. Some parts for the earlier cars are more expensive, possibly because there were a lot more 37s built than 35/36s combined. One thing that makes the 37/39s a little easier to drive is that they have 825 - 16 tires on 8 in wide rims. Radial tires are available for both the 16 and 17 inch rims however. The 35/36s have the nice big, but also very expensive weighted bumpers. The Bijur system is easy to maintain once it is cleaned and put in working order if it isn't ok. The adjustable shocks are nice, and disappear on the 37s, but you probably won't really miss that. The engines and transmisions are almost identical, so the big difference is in the front suspension, and to be honest the best handling cars seem to me to be the 38/39s as the balance is even better with the motor moved up on the front crossmember and the wheelbase shortened. Dave packard12s@hotmail.com

[Steve_Mack_CT]

The v-12 guys will know better but given both series must appeal to you Dave, you may want to consider either and pick a vehicle that is well sorted with a solid engine. They can be pricey to repair. It may be worth the cost of having a pro evaluate the mechanics prior to purchase. Locally I know of two '37 12s that are well sorted cars whose owners love putting them on the road; plenty of power and dependable without needing gobs of maintanence. I am sure an earlier car would be equally enjoyable as well. Good luck with your search!

[K8096]

When putting radial tires on a 1937 - 1939 Twelve, what size do you use?

[Dave Mitchell]

It has been a couple of years since I bought the radials, but I think they were 245/75-16 Michelin LTX AS. I had a set of blackwalls on my 1508 sedan, and had Diamondback put whitewalls on a set for a 1708 conv sedan for a friend. I put about 20K miles on the 37 with them on. You have to run about 45 - 50 psi in them though. You can match the crosssection and diameter pretty closely. I have 750 - 17 Michelin XCAs on my 34 V16 Cad and they are so much better than bias tires on that heavy car.

It is true that finding a car with an engine that is done is a good idea. If the engine on a 12 hasn't been done, it probably soon will need to be, unless the car has had very good care and very low miles. There aren't that many people who really know Packard 12 engines correctly and it is best to find one done by that handful of guys who know what they are doing, or you will probably be spending more money to fix it right. There is no good way to do that engine on the cheap. If someone says the engine is rebuilt, ask to see the bills and make sure what has been done and who did it. That is probably more important than what year you get, at least if you are going to drive it, which is the fun of having a 12.

[Guest CharvetMagic]

As Dave mentioned above, the correct tire size on a '38 Twelve (and I assume 37 and 39 as well) is an 8.25 x 16 bias. I believe they are only made now by Dunlop. The Twelves are much heavier than the Super Eights which took 7.50 x 16's. I love radials and have used them on other classics I've owned (late 30's Packard Super 8's and Cadillacs), but frankly, if you have a properly set-up front-end with new bushings, king pins, etc. you should have no problems running bias plys. A lot of people put radial tires on a car trying to compensate for a worn-out front end.

Coker 16" radials run with a tube, Diamondbacks do not. But I don't know of a radial that will give you the correct width profile on the Twelve and really fill the wheel well correctly. Also, chances are if you have sidemounted spare tires, radials will not fit into the fenderwell unless you let a lot of air out of them - and then try to fight the 3-piece sidemount covers back over the tires.

Regarding engines - as mentioned above, there is no cheap way to rebuild a Twelve. Many were neglected or experienced "deferred maintenance" because of under-financed owners or unavailability of parts and skilled mechanics who understand the Twelve. There are many issues you need to consider. Primarily rod bearings - which should be replaced with a modern Perkins diesel engine bearing rather than the old (and now hard to find) babbetted shells. If you plan to tour at freeway speeds, you'll want to add either overdrive or high speed gears. Despite all of the power available in the Twelve, you'll still bang the babbett out of the bearings if you run a car with a 4.69:1 rear-end (as most closed Twelves were) at extended freeway speeds. Also check the cooling system. Twelves that still have aluminum heads are prone to electrolysis which can fill up the radiator and cooling passages with crud. Also stock up on any parts you can find. Distributor caps are not reproduced (since Jack Nethercutt did a run in the early 70's) and the last rotor I bought set me back $250 10 years ago. A Stromberg EE-3 carburetor will run you about $3,000-$3,500. Not saying any of this to scare you, just be prepared.

The '37 and later models do handle a little less like a truck (especially when parallel parking) due to the "Saf-T-flex" suspension, as compared to the straight-axle '36's. I believe the engine was also moved a little further forward in '38 which helps the handling a bit. Of course, in '38 everything changed regarding fender styling, split windshield, radiator/grille, etc. which changed the look of the whole car.

Still, there is nothing like a Packard Twelve!

Edited December 16, 2010 by CharvetMagic (see edit history)

[1935Packard]

Steve writes: "Dave, you may want to . . . pick a vehicle that is well sorted with a solid engine. They can be pricey to repair."

Boy, is that an understatement! :-)

[Dave Mitchell]

Coker supplies a Goodrich 8.25 - 16 tire that is a very good bias tire and period correct, much better than the old straight tread tires often seen on older restorations of 37 - 39 12s, which were oversize and the whitewalls were much larger than what was supplied in 37 - 39. I am not aware of a correct Dunlop. The Michelin radials I used were very close to original specs in terms of crosssection and diameter. They are light truck tires, not low profile car tires, and look fine in the wheel opening, and also fit the original sidemount covers. I had good rims, done well and didn't need tubes in the radials. I completely rebuilt the front end from replicating the special export springs to custom made kingpins, and I felt that it drove better with the radials, but I did a lot of long trips in all types of weather (other than winter). They aren't bad with bias either though, so if you want to show the car too, bias is the way to go. There are a number of 750 - 17 bias tires available appropriate for the earlier 12s as well as the Michelin radials.

In my experience, most 12s, even closed cars, had 4.41 rear axles, which is better than the 4.69 - (I did have a car originally equiped with that, but it was sold new in Denver). It is true that switching to the 4.09 or adding overdrive will make it a better long distance cruiser, but I have also put a lot of highway miles on a 7 pass sedan with a 4.41. If you ask 20 guys what to do with the rod bearings, you will get at least 15 different answers. I don't want to say that any one is better than any other, but I have put the bearings in a number of these back to babbit and put lots of high speed miles on them and had no problems at all. I would say that you need to have someone who really knows these engines do the rebuild, because there are more things than the bearings that can cause failure - the tolerances are very tight on this engine and need to be set up exactly. Does your rebuilder have an assortment of crankshaft end play adjustment shims? How many valve blocks have they redone? I have seen more 12s with valve train or cylinder bore/piston wear problems than with rod bearing failure. Sure parts are expensive, but so are parts for Super 8s, or Cad 16s, or Hispano Suizas, Mercedes Benz, Pierce Arrow or other top end cars. Parts for modern cars are expensive too. Price a head light or tail light unit for your daily driver sometime, or worse yet a computer module. The expensive things on a 12 are repro heads, timing cover, custom pistons, correct carb, distributor cap and bolt on items (depending on the year, some worse than others), machine work, and chrome, but these are almost the same for 35/36 or 37 - 39.

[tbirdman]

Dave,

In regards to Super 8 builds, do they face the same issues of the 12s or are they a lot simpler?

[Dave Mitchell]

There are some things simpler on the 8s, some about the same - one thing that gets expensive is grinding the crankshaft rod journals because the counterweights have to come off, since they overlap the journals just like a 12, and there are more weights and journals on an 8. There are fewer bearings, but we do them the same, and if the mains need to be done, the number of bearings is the same. There are still rollers to rebuild in the valve train, but no silencers, but on the other hand once the valves are adjusted on a 12, you are pretty much done, you won't have to adjust them again, which you will on the 8, and it isn't that much fun to do. The oiling system is about the same, and original steel strut aluminum pistons are hard to find, so custom pistons are still there. The bore is perpendicular to the block in an 8, which makes it a little easier, but the 8 blocks are much more likely to crack in my experience, which means you may have to spend a lot on having it hot welded to save it. The 8 heads are available reproduction or you can find originals (I have an extra HC original big 8 head for instance), but they are subject to warping and you have to spend money to recondition them. The 8 manifolds are pretty fragile (much moreso than the 12s) and even the intakes are subject to internal failure. The bolt ons are about the same, and in fact the 8 carbs are pretty rare and very expensive - both the Detroits and the EE 22s and just as much or more trouble to rebuild. I don't think anyone is reproducing the distributor caps for 8s, but they are a bit cheaper than 12s, and the distributors are about the same to set up. So, yes, the machine work may end up cheaper, as well as parts since you have fewer cylinders, and the valve train is less complex. Unfortunately a lot of the guys who know these engines are retiring or we are losing them. I am very lucky to have a great mechanic working with me in my shop who is in his 70s and has been working on Packards for 50 years, but there aren't that many of those guys around for whom this is second nature. I am not by any means saying that the 12s are better than the 8s, I like them both, and have both, but I the first post asked about 12s.

[tbirdman]

Dave,

Thanks for your reply. I just went through an expensive engine rebuild last year. I did babbit the bearings as I believe that driving my 32 deluxe 8 coupe roadster at 50-55 should be fine. I went throught the expense also of the crankshaft grinding made more expensive by the previous rebuilder welding and epoxying the bolts. All new rollers were used in the valve train along with pistons, valves and springs.

I was surprised at the cost of the rebuild.

Max Merritt said someone was reproducing the 8 caps but the mold broke so no more were being made.

I think I'm leaking a small amount oil out of the rear of the engine (there isn't a seal) so I'm jsut wondering if the rebuilder missed a step. I also have soem leaks on teh oil lines that I'm fixing that also may bethe soure of the oil leak.

But it sure is nice to drive down the road without any smoke or the car behind you putting on their windshield wipers because of the smoke:D

We just lost a good local resource this year.

[Dave Mitchell]

The more you drive and enjoy your car, the less the cost of that rebuild will bother you. When these cars are right, they put a smile on your face every time you drive them.

That is unfortunate about your crank. I am surprised that it had to be ground a second time - maybe they didn't get it right the first time. We have put new babbit in numerous 12s, 8s and as well as my V16 and have had no problems. I don't recall the 32 cranks - some later cars have a baffle at the rear main or sort of reverse thread that should push the oil back in, but some early engines don't have much compared to the newer 8s. We put modern seals in the front cover of the 12s because the original seals aren't that good. We always run the engines on the stand before putting them in them in to find and fix any leaks, but that isn't always easy to do, and it can be hard to see the leaks in the car.

I think I met your local guy about 10 years ago when I was in Portland and I have an engine that he did some time back. It is sad to lose those guys.

[tbirdman]

Somehow there was grit inside the engine which wore everything out. The Apparantly although the engine had been rebuilt twice in the past 10 years it was done half ass.

Lookig for many years of driving this baby.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Hopefully both Birdman and 1935Packard enjoy there recent rebuilds long after the issues are resolved and checks written.

I do think the V-12s are rugged and reliable engines. I have a 90 year young friend with a 37 V-12 coupe roadster. In his 55+ years owning it he has never done a rebuild as I understand it, but I do not know the condition of the engine when he acquired the car. Having owned a garage I am sure he did know how to maintain it. Not too many years ago he drove it out to Warren, Ohio. Knowing I have a 120, he has told me this story a few times, always with an evil grin and gleam in his eye - "we made it from CT to Warren Ohio in one full day, there were three of us, a Junior, a Super Eight and me. We would have made better time but the junior had trouble keeping up from time to time..."

But getting back to the Packard v-12, you go in confidence. I probably would not be confident making that run in say, a Lincoln V-12? You will know the right car when it comes along!

[tbirdman]

Cross your fingers that everything will go well. Hopefully the radiator recore will help the overheating issue in 85+ weather. The radiator shop said it flowed ok but when they measured the temp difference from the top to the lower tank, it was only 20 degrees. They like to see at least 40. That is actually what we measured while the radiator was in the car.

Other than that and some oil leaks, it runs well.

From what I have read, because of design style differences and also the mechanical differences like IFS, the 37 is more desireable. If I had a choice between a 36 and a 37 I would buy the 37 though it would cost more. However I would take either in a heartbeat.

[Dave Mitchell]

Steve, is your friend with the 37 named John and maybe owned a cab company in CT? I remember buying parts from him and a friend of his from RI years ago at Hershey. A really nice guy. Good to hear he is still around if that is the guy.

Ken, recoring the radiator is always well spent money. I am not sure that the 37 would be more expensive than the 36 if they were of equal quality. There are fewer of the 36s around. I too like both. I think that the 36s are a bit more "elegant" with the wire wheels and big bumpers, but perhaps the 37s are a bit nicer to drive with the hydraulic brakes and independent front suspension.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Hi Dave. Yes, John is who I am talking about, although he does not get to Hershey anymore he tells me he has owned over 100 Packards over the years, and he did at one time sell a lot of parts. The '37 was the weekend car of some NYC businessman, who eventually tired of the car and sold it to John in the 50s when he was operating his garage. Another quick story about him - He has attended a local show here religously for many years, usually bringing out his car and then going back to get his pickup of parts to vend. He was having some trouble with the car (age at the time - 89) but sure enough he is there, tells me "I am a little tired today since I was out in the garage last night until after 10:00 getting the ignition fixed!"" - gotta love that!!