1947 chrylser sputtering

[Guest mardigrasvet]

just took car out of 25-year storage. friend tried to start it with the 25-year old gas still in the tank. mechanic eventually drained gas tank and put in good gas. car sputtered after running for a few blocks. fuel pump rebuilt, new plugs, carb cleaned well but still conking out after going a few blocks. if it sits for a while it will start up and move again, so i managed to drive it the few blocks back to the mechanic.

read by googling that the old gas probably gunked up matters. any clue on what we can do? can it be anything else?

thanks.

tom

[pacerman]

You really should have the carburetor rebuilt, not just "cleaned". Also, did he change the fuel pump? If not you already know it's at least 25 years old. Check to see if you have fuel flow when the engiine is cranked by disconnecting the fuel line at the carburetor and catching the fuel in a can. You could also have valves stilcking open from the varnish in the old fuel. You don't have to worry about ben pushrods like on an OHV engine but they could stick open and ruin the compression event making it run "choppy" and die if enough of them stick. Do a compression test to confirm this or pull the side cover off the engine and have a look. Joe

[c49er]

There is a 2" round oilite bronze type of filter in the gas tank pickup tube-it's probably plugged up with 25 year old varnished gas. You have to cut the tank apart to get to it. You need to check that the line through the tank is free and open-you should be able to blow through it easily. If plugged you can try to jam a stiff wire in the PU tube to try to open a hole through it. Also there is supposed to be a brass/bronze 1/2" long bushing that fits inside the fuel tank fitting. This brass bushing is what seals the outside fuel line to the inside fuel line pickup tube inside the tank. If it is missing your car will start and run-die run ect because of a vacuum leak. Also replace the rubber suction hose at the frame to fuel pump if you have not done so. that hose if old will rot/crack and suck air-not enough fuel!

[Guest mardigrasvet]

thanks for the tips. mechanic is afraid to touch carb because he is afraid of ruining the gasket on a 63 year old car. have any clue where in south florida i might get parts like this for the car or anywhere else that can ship such things?

he took the car for a few days and said it ran well. thought it was my clutching too much when i should not have because of the fluid drive. we got in it today and drove about six miles. perfect. i took over and drove it about 10 blocks and sputtering again so i guess he will have to go into that carb.

he said he did clear out the gas tank and blew air through the system to clean it out. if the fuel pump was rebuilt prior to his blowing out the gunk, could there be gunk now in the fuel pump?

[W_Higgins]

have any clue where in south florida i might get parts like this for the car or anywhere else that can ship such things?

Daytona Parts Company just happens to be in Florida, but they ship anywhere. They have done several full rebuilds for me and are excellent, as are their kits.

If you have E10 in your part of Florida, ethanol has a knack for softening tank goo. So, yes, it could have been pumped through the system if it had time to dissolve it.

[Guest mardigrasvet]

thanks for the great tip. one other item: i think my mechanic knows fluid drive well enough but when he drove it with me in the car, he was staying in 2nd way too long by my experience, going about 40-45 mph. could this at all contribute to any possible problem now or in the future?

[Guest De Soto Frank]

Um, 45 is a bit too fast to be driving in Lo-range, if that's what you mean by "2nd".

If you're running on fairly flat road, should be able to drive it in Hi-range. Driver should shift "by ear", taking foot off the accelerator around 15 mph and "waiting for the klunk" when in Hi-range.

It is possible to start-out in Lo-Range, upshifting "automatically", accelerating again, then when the you've wound it out, using the clutch and shifting the lever to Hi-range... this is essentially uses gears 1,2, then 4. That technique is for people in a hurry; would't advise making a habit of it.

MoPar Fluid Drive or the Semi-Automatic are NOT for people in a hurry, regardless of any of MoPar's original ad hype.

Okay, all that said...

My own '48 NewYorker was resucued from a northern PA farm field after a 15 year "nap"...

After getting the engine unstuck and getting the brakes working, I was able to take it out and start driving... and start dealing with fuel system issues...

First issue was that Oil-lite sintered-bronze filter element on the fuel pick-up tube in the tank that C49ER mentioned; my car had just been driven out in the field andparked, with no storage prep... so it had half a tank full of old stinky gas and varnish. The oil-lite filter was clogged. I wound-up dropping the gas-tank, standing it on end, fuel line opening up, and filling the pick-up tube with Carb Cleaner... finally put the air hose on it, and turned-up the pressure until I heard a "pop", followed by a clunk and the hiss of air. I guess it blew the clogged filter off the pick-up tube inside the tank.

With the tank line cleared, I put the tank back on the car, and started driving the car.

Next problem was an apparent fuel-pump failure; turned-out to be bits of crud blocking the fuel pump check valves open... cleaned the check valves, put the pump back on, got the car going, and promptly installed an in-line fuel filter just before the pump.

Things were fairly trouble free for a while, then on a trip on the Interstate, the car would lose power like it was was running out of gas... if I would step on the gas, it would pick-up for a second or two, then starve again... pull over to the shoulder, the car would idle fine... get back under way, the car would start starving again. Pull over, would idle fine...

Got home by running off the accelerator pump... herky-jerky.

Took top off the carb and found the float-bowl full of "red mud"... fine rust. It had clogged-up the main jet of the carb... the idle jet and acceerator pump circuit were still clear. Cleaned the carb out, and added a second fuel filter between the pump and the carb.

Car ran fine, but one or the other fuel filter would plug-up with "red mud" every couple hundred miles... I would keep a couple spare filters in the trunk...

Finally , I got tired of having my travel interupted by clogged fuel filters, getting my hands & clothes dirty and smelling of gasoline, and dropped the tank again, and had it "boiled-out" at a local radiator shop.

Drove the car another 40,000 miles with no further fuel system problems. It was my daily driver for four-five years.

Long story... this all went down between 1987 & 88, long before the days of ethanol-blended fuels, but I tell the tale to illustrate one instance of chronic fuel-system issues I experienced putting a car back on the road after a long sleep.

It was the most challenging vehicle I've had in that regard; others since have presented me with fuel-system issues, usually involving rust in the gas tank clogging-up the rest of the system.

Suggest you methodically go through the fuel system from tank to carb and make sure each element in the system is functioning properly. Make sure the steel fuel line is intact; I have run into lines that were rust-perforated enough to allow air to bleed in, reducing the volume of fuel the pump could pull, but not perforated enough to actually drip fuel.

Good luck with it...

[Guest mardigrasvet]

thanks for the info. such patience! will let you know if we ever get the thing cleared up.

tom

[Guest mardigrasvet]

mechanic has been dutifully working on the car. said engine compression is fine, all cylinders fine and new plugs put in. second time doing that. car operates fine when cold, but as it gets to normal operating temp, it dies. he is trying to bypass the fuel pump, which was rebuilt up north, and is now testing it again. also cleaned carb well and does not feel it is the problem.

i asked him he he read your previous response and theorized that no matter how much he cleans the carb, etc. if junk is slowly disintegrating in the gas tank--gas sat for 25 years--everything will get clogged again and again. for some reason, he is not listening to this.

have any suggestions on how to test to find out if the gas tank gunk is the culprit? thanks for all your help.

[Guest kaycee]

I'd drop the tank and clean it or have it cleaned and flush the lines forward up to the pump and carb. That will ensure that you have good (if any is still available) getting to the carb.

kaycee

[Guest De Soto Frank]

If the car has been sitting for twenty-some years, I would almost guarantee that there is varnish and goo in the fuel tank.

Remove the gas filler cap and take a whiff... "old gasoline" has a distinctive smell, somewhat "sweeter" and not as "sharp" as fresh gasoline, that hangs in your nostrils and back of your throat a lot longer than fresh gas. Once you've smelled it, you'll instantly recognize it any time thereafter...

If you smell that smell, you can be certain that whatever was in the tank when the car was parked had turned into varnish and goo.

Suggest you drop the tank, have it cleaned-out, and cross it off your list.

One "Secret" about MoPar gastanks of this vintage: the fuel-line connection at the gas tank uses a special fitting, ferule, and flare-nut. Don't destroy or lose any of the bits.

Good luck.

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

If the car has been sitting for twenty-some years, I would almost guarantee that there is varnish and goo in the fuel tank.

Remove the gas filler cap and take a whiff... "old gasoline" has a distinctive smell, somewhat "sweeter" and not as "sharp" as fresh gasoline, that hangs in your nostrils and back of your throat a lot longer than fresh gas. Once you've smelled it, you'll instantly recognize it any time thereafter...

If you smell that smell, you can be certain that whatever was in the tank when the car was parked had turned into varnish and goo.

Suggest you drop the tank, have it cleaned-out, and cross it off your list.

One "Secret" about MoPar gastanks of this vintage: the fuel-line connection at the gas tank uses a special fitting, ferule, and flare-nut. Don't destroy or lose any of the bits.

Good luck.

To say that "old gas" has a distinctive smell is a gross understatement. Old leaded gas has a unique odor just like old unleaded gas has a unique odor, which can best be described as just flat foul smelling.

But hey the bright side about all that goo and varnish is it's keeping the rust in place..........

Jim

[Guest mardigrasvet]

thanks for the tips. i asked my mechanic about it and he said he knows of no one in west palm beach who still can clean or boil the gas tank to clear it out. any clues on how i might find one other than google? while at it, how about a source for parts anywhere? these days, things can be shipped. tried dayton recommended in previous post, but no answer to email and no one seems to answer the phone.

mechanic said he bypassed the fuel pump yesterday and it drove well, but when he reconnected the fuel pump it starting sputtering again. the fuel pump was rebuilt up north. think it might be a problem?

thanks for all your help.

tom

[Guest kaycee]

Tom,

You might ask your mechanic to 'feed' the engine from the intake of the fuel pump. That will show if the pump is a bad rebuild.

kaycee

[Guest mjames]

if your wondering about what gunk is breaking down in the tank,you might try a clear fuel filter which can be purchased from Summit Racing,or maybe even a local auto parts store.

I would put it between the tank and pump and look for anything floating or a change in color of the gas. These filters are usually glass that unscrew on the ends so that you can change the filter inside.

Good luck

[Guest De Soto Frank]

Tom,

You might ask your mechanic to 'feed' the engine from the intake of the fuel pump. That will show if the pump is a bad rebuild.

kaycee

Ah yes, "run it off the jug"...

Done that many times... especially when reviving a car with no / unknown gas-tank...

If the problem goes away when running off a jug under the hood, that suggests the problem is in the tank or the line between the tank and the pump.

[Guest mardigrasvet]

thanks for all the tips. thought i edited my post but guess it did not work. i did find a radiator shop that said it cleans out old gas tanks frequently, coating them in polyurethane after cleaning. separated by a strand of high bushes, i could hand-carry the gas tank to the radiator shop from my mechanic's garage! the marvels of google.

[Guest mardigrasvet]

my mechanic says he needs to get the flexible fuel line that is about 4-5" long and sits between the front of the fuel pump and the metal fuel line. asked him if he could just use rubber or some other material and he said it has a special fitting. any suggestions on where to get one?

thanks for all your help. car going to radiator shop for gas tank today.

[Guest mardigrasvet]

radiator shop said tank looked pretty good. said after taking off some filter (i think) he was able to look inside a 5" hole with a lite and mirror. said no pitting and it looked so good he did not coat it with polyurethane. suggested to my mechanic that he do something with the fuel lines (forgot the term he used) and mechanic is going to do that. at least now i have peace of mind that any future clogging is not coming from the gas tank. thanks.

[61polara]

For the 4-5" fuel line, your mechanic should be able to cut the flexible part off and get to the metal portion of the ends. He can fit rubber fuel line, with clamps to the original fittings on the end.

[NTX5467]

Dont' forget to change ALL of the rubber lines which might be in the fuel supply system--period. They normally get soft with age, but the ethanol'd gas will make it worse.

As for the "run's fine when cold, won't idle when hot" . . . IF this also coincides with the automatic choke (or manual choke) openning all of the way and then it dieing, that would mean that the idle circuit of the car isn't flowing fuel, not specifically the lines to the carb. If it's like my '80 Chrysler was, a normal carb rebuild and clean will NOT fix it.

In the venturi cluster of the carb (which probably unscrews and comes out of the throttle bores from the top), you'll find (generally) two pairs of tubes hanging down into the float bowl. The larger one with the holes is for the main system. The smaller one is for the idle system. Many times, just up inside the tube is a drilled orifice that you'll not see readily, but it is there, usually. The "Idle Feed Tubes" supply fuel to the idle system, which is later adjusted by the idle mixture screws. Although you might spray some spray carb cleaner through them and see "flow", that does not mean they will flow enough, as I found out!

The car ran great as long as it was on fast idle, but when it got hot enough to be on base idle, it would die immediately. It would run fine on the highway, but when I'd back out of the throttle to slow down for an off-ramp, it'd die . . . even at 60mph road speed.

After taking the venturi cluster out and spraying B-12 cleaner and then putting it back together, it'd idle until the B-12 was gone and then it'd die.

After much looking in my many Chrysler service manuals, I found a "Low Speed Jet" listing in the specs, and finally found out where the "Low Speed Jet" was located . . . it's the drilled orifice near the bottom of the Idle Feed Tube (which I mentioned). I started to probe the bottom of the tube with a bent-wire spark plug gap tool. The hole enlarged as the crusted deposits were flaked off. More cleaner revealed where the orifice was in the tube. I got a selection of twist drills and openned it up until I "got brass". I sprayed it out again, to remove any residual debris -- problem fixed! This was not a "varnish"-related deposit, but a hard deposit from fuel additives, so it had to be removed mechanicallly.

Those early carbs are not that different in concept and operation from carbs up into the middle 1960s. In the case of the '80 Chrysler, it was the Chrysler-common Carter BBD 2bbl . . . the ONLY year it was installed on a Chrysler 360 V-8, rather than on a 318, but with the same size as the 318 carb.

Hope this might help . . .

NTX5467

[Guest mardigrasvet]

my mechanic took the fuel pump and the small hose to a machine shop and they were able to get a replacement part. the car runs beautifully now. as luck would have it, once i got the car to my condo, my condo mgr said he owned one and a lot of other old cars growing up on a farm in akron (he is 80.) after hearing the car idling he said my manifold should be checked because of the noise the engine is making. could be a gasket. i am starting a new thread for the manifold.

thanks so much for the help on the fuel line. if only google existed 25 years ago i could have known then not to store the car with gasoline in the tank! although this whole affair was a bit expensive, i've manage to rationalize by knowing that during the past 25 years, i did not invest a cent in the car. forgot just how good the near-original thing looks especially now that i have the wide white walls on it.