help to identify correctly this engine please.

[Guest Fitz]

I know it's a Chrysler product, I need the year, and all you can tell me about. It's a customer's engine going into a Bombardier snowmobile 1952. Thank you all for your attention.

Fitz.

[Rusty_OToole]

Chrysler built many versions of this engine for industrial use from 1938 to 1972. I can tell you from the pictures that the blue engine is the best model, and probably original to a 1952 Bombardier. The reason I say this the style of oil filter. It has the full flow filtration system which uses a tower style of filter housing that bolts to the block. This feature was introduced about 1951 or 52. Previous engines used a partial flow filter with 2 pipes going to a separate filter mounted in about the same place.

There are 3 things to look for on an industrial engine for positive ID.

First is the serial number. It is stamped on a raised pad on the left side of the engine, near the front, just below the cylinder head.

Second is the length of the engine. Measure the length at the cylinder head. The smaller engine is about 23" long the longer one is 25".

Third is a small metal plate riveted to the side of the engine, low down near the pan rail. This was used on industrial engines but I don't see one on yours. It would have been about the middle of the block below the valve covers. On an industrial engine, this plate contains the most important information.

There are other details. They even offered a choice of chain drive or gear drive for the cam.

Your engine if it is the original industrial engine, had premium parts not found in a car engine such as hardened sleeves in the cylinders, heavy duty pistons, bearings and possibly rods and possibly a brass coolant distribution tube as well as the best oil filter previously mentioned.

To get you started on the serial number the first letters should give away what sort of machine the engine was built for. C= Chrysler, S= DeSoto, D=Dodge, P= Plymouth, T= Truck , IND= Industrial.

Edited September 12, 2010 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

The green engine appears to be a 1954 car engine. If you rebuilt that one you know that they are a simple rugged engine and not hard or tricky to rebuild, and that parts are available. You probably also know they are a better performer than most people think. Not as fast as a modern OHV engine but with plenty of punch at low and medium speeds and easy to drive under all conditions, if you aren't in too much of a hurry.

Edited September 12, 2010 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Guest Fitz]

Thank you very much for the quick answer, I'll look at the number on the block and come back with for a best identification.

The green engine is mine's car, a 53 Pontiac 239pc 6 engine.

come back later.

Fitz.

[Guest Fitz]

The blue engine appear to have a 25 inches head with casting # molded on the rear lower left side (driver position) 140C229.

Tell you something?

thanks again

Fitz.

[ply33]

The blue engine appear to have a 25 inches head with casting # molded on the rear lower left side (driver position) 140C229.

Tell you something?

thanks again

Fitz.

Per Rusty_OToole's post, the engine number will be the best bet for identifying your engine. I've marked this photo to show were to look for it.

[Guest Fitz]

OK I see,

will check and let you know later.

thank you.

Fitz.

[Rusty_OToole]

The casting number doesn't tell me anything because it was never used in any book to identify the engine.

The serial number stamped in the pad at the top left front of the block is quite informative. On the industrial and marine engines, there was an aluminum plate rivetted to the right side of the block that was even more informative.

[Guest Fitz]

Hi,

there is no number punch into the block top, maybe this block was grinded in his earlier days.

Thanks to all for help, I'll look by bore/stroke and crank mesuremant to identify this engine.

At least I have a lot of info coming from you, thanks again.

Fitz.

Edited September 25, 2010 by Fitz (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

If there is no number it may be a replacement engine sold by Chrysler. I believe they came with the serial number blank, the dealer was supposed to stamp in the car's serial number for states that registered cars by engine number.

You can measure the stroke without taking the engine apart. There is a small pipe plug in the head, over the #6 piston. By removing this plug, you can put a wire down the hole and measure the distance the piston moves as you turn the crankshaft.

This hole was made for finding TDC while tuning the engine.

Be sure you bend a big T on the top of the wire, in other words make sure it can't drop into the cylinder.

Bore is probably 3 7/16 although it is possible it has the smaller 3 3/8 bore used by Plymouth and Dodge.

Stroke may be 4 1/16, 4 1/4, 4 1/2, 4 3/4. All cranks will fit the same block if you use the matching con rods.

The late block with the full pressure lubrication system, 4 3/4 stroke and 3 7/16 bore is the biggest and best version of this engine. 265 cu in and 120HP as used in 1954 Chrysler Windsor. I believe the Dodge truck version of the late 50s was 135HP. Truck, marine and industrial engines came with sleeved cylinders for extra long life.

[Rusty_OToole]

The 25" block is the larger engine used in Detroit built Chrysler and DeSoto cars. The Plymouth and Dodge used the smaller engine.

In Canada, they made the larger engine only. Then they changed the bore and stroke to make engines suitable for Plymouth, Dodge DeSoto and Chrysler. As you are in Canada you could have any size engine, however I believe the full flow oiling system was only used on the 251 and 265 engines. Both these engines have 3 7/16 bore, one has 4 1/2 stroke the other 4 3/4 stroke.

[Guest Fitz]

It appear that is a 251 with the spec taken from the bore and stroke, but nothing stamp anywhere... it's sad, I would like to have something.

Thank you and I'll post picture of it if my customer want to rebuilt it.

thanks again.

Fitz.

[Rusty_OToole]

Most likely the original engine. A 251 with the full flow oiling is an excellent engine, and it was available in 1952. Stock size for a Chrysler Windsor. The 265 may not have been made yet. It came in cars the next year.

I wonder if you could check with Bombardier? Maybe they bought engines from Chrysler with no numbers on them because they had their own identification system?

Is there any sign of a metal plate that was removed from the right side of the block? Such as rivets chiseled off? The industrial engines had an ID plate.

If your customer does not want the engine I would like to have it myself.

[Guest Fitz]

I'll consider everything you ask for, if he don't want it anymore, let you know, but I think he'll let us rebuilt it. I'll check carefully for tag or something on engine and let you know.

thanks again.

Fitz.

[1936 D2]

Hey Rusty,

Didn't those engine's have the letter "C", "P", "D" or "S" cast into the head near the back also? That could give an indication of the manufacture at least. I know the earlier US engines of the '30's did. (See photo of a '36 Dodge head). Not sure about the Canadian ones though.

Edited October 2, 2010 by 1936 D2
Second attempt to attach photo - system working oddly. (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

I checked a 40s Chrysler head and it says Spitfire but no letter. I guess some have it and some don't or maybe the early ones have it.

[Guest Fitz]

Here a small update about my customer Bombardier's engine. This is almost done.

[Guest Fitz]

into the #6 cyl. combustion chamber there is a hole that communicate to the outside top of the head and blocked by a plug, what is the purpose of this hole?

thanks again.

Fitz.

[keiser31]

into the #6 cyl. combustion chamber there is a hole that communicate to the outside top of the head and blocked by a plug, what is the purpose of this hole?

thanks again.

Fitz.

The hole is to find top dead center of the #6 piston. You remove the plug from the hole and use a wire gauge to find TDC.

[Rusty_OToole]

Set the piston to TDC and set the ignition timing. #1 and #6 piston are at TDC at the same time.

[1936 D2]

Set the piston to TDC and set the ignition timing. #1 and #6 piston are at TDC at the same time.

Hey Rusty,

How does that work? I can see both pistons up at TDC at the same time but one would be on the power (spark) stroke and the other would be on the exhaust stroke. The distributor only directs spark to, and fires one plug at a time. I was always told to time off the #6 cylinder. (That's why the plug is over that cylinder.) Is this wrong?

With this in mind, I do remember seeing photos of engines of the same year, some with the distributor's vacuum advance unit on the top of the distributor and some at the bottom (essentially) of the distributor. Would this be the difference of timing with the #1 or the #6 cylinder?

I guess I am confused. :confused:

[Rusty_OToole]

Hey Rusty,

How does that work? I can see both pistons up at TDC at the same time but one would be on the power (spark) stroke and the other would be on the exhaust stroke. The distributor only directs spark to, and fires one plug at a time. I was always told to time off the #6 cylinder. (That's why the plug is over that cylinder.) Is this wrong?

With this in mind, I do remember seeing photos of engines of the same year, some with the distributor's vacuum advance unit on the top of the distributor and some at the bottom (essentially) of the distributor. Would this be the difference of timing with the #1 or the #6 cylinder?

I guess I am confused. :confused:

The crankshaft turn over twice while the camshaft turns once. Therefore, either the #1 or #6 piston could be on its firing stroke. As long as you have them at TDC it makes no difference. So, just find TDC and set the timing it will be fine. Both #1 and #6 are at TDC at the same time.

[1936 D2]

The crankshaft turn over twice while the camshaft turns once. Therefore, either the #1 or #6 piston could be on its firing stroke. As long as you have them at TDC it makes no difference. So, just find TDC and set the timing it will be fine. Both #1 and #6 are at TDC at the same time.

OK. I must be "thick"!

You are saying, the #1 and #6 pistons are up at the TDC of their POWER stroke at the same time (that's how timing is measured), and only one spark plug fires at a time, how can the timing be set with either #1 OR #6 at the same time?

This is how I understand it. Only one cylinder can fire at a time. The "timing" is derived from the piston's position near the top of the POWER stroke on the one cylinder that is set to get spark from the distributor (either at TDC, before TDC or after TDC). The timing marks are on the harmonic balancer at the front of the CRANK SHAFT. So the timing marks only come around twice during two full revolutions of the crank shaft. That would mean to me that for any given position of the rotor in the distributor there will be only one time in the timing marks' two revolutions that the rotor lines up with the correct cylinder for timing during that cylinder's POWER STROKE. This would mean there is only ONE cylinder that is correct for timing. (The second time it comes around, the piston is on its EXHAUST stroke and the plug for that cylinder IS NOT firing at that time).

Again, I have been told the correct timing cylinder is the #6 cylinder and that makes sense because it is the one with the plug above it in the cylinder head.

Please find a way to help me understand how either #1 or #6 can be used interchangeably - at the same time - for correct timing. (If you flip the distributor 180 degrees out of phase I suppose the #1 cylinder could work - sort of close - but then the other four cylinders will be way off. Believe me - I know!).

Also, I think the problem here is I am thinking about measuring timing "electrically" with a timing light on the firing cylinder. You may be speaking of using the mechanical timing wire tool Keiser31 spoke of earlier. That I could see would just be showing TDC which WILL line up with the timing marks on BOTH the power stroke AND the exhaust stroke for both #1 and #6 during the same revolution.

Maybe I have it now? We are on the same page?

Edited November 21, 2010 by 1936 D2
Update (see edit history)

[keiser31]

You can be at TDC on either stroke (compression or exhaust), so when #1 is on TDC on the compression stroke and the rotor in the distributor is pointing to the #1 plug wire, #6 piston should be on the exhaust stroke.

[1936 D2]

Simply put, that's what I thought.

[keiser31]

Fitz....sorry we hijacked your thread. John

[Rusty_OToole]

OK. I must be "thick"!

You are saying, the #1 and #6 pistons are up at the TDC of their POWER stroke at the same time (that's how timing is measured), and only one spark plug fires at a time, how can the timing be set with either #1 OR #6 at the same time?

This is how I understand it. Only one cylinder can fire at a time. The "timing" is derived from the piston's position near the top of the POWER stroke on the one cylinder that is set to get spark from the distributor (either at TDC, before TDC or after TDC). The timing marks are on the harmonic balancer at the front of the CRANK SHAFT. So the timing marks only come around twice during two full revolutions of the crank shaft. That would mean to me that for any given position of the rotor in the distributor there will be only one time in the timing marks' two revolutions that the rotor lines up with the correct cylinder for timing during that cylinder's POWER STROKE. This would mean there is only ONE cylinder that is correct for timing. (The second time it comes around, the piston is on its EXHAUST stroke and the plug for that cylinder IS NOT firing at that time).

Again, I have been told the correct timing cylinder is the #6 cylinder and that makes sense because it is the one with the plug above it in the cylinder head.

Please find a way to help me understand how either #1 or #6 can be used interchangeably - at the same time - for correct timing. (If you flip the distributor 180 degrees out of phase I suppose the #1 cylinder could work - sort of close - but then the other four cylinders will be way off. Believe me - I know!).

Also, I think the problem here is I am thinking about measuring timing "electrically" with a timing light on the firing cylinder. You may be speaking of using the mechanical timing wire tool Keiser31 spoke of earlier. That I could see would just be showing TDC which WILL line up with the timing marks on BOTH the power stroke AND the exhaust stroke for both #1 and #6 during the same revolution.

Maybe I have it now? We are on the same page?

I'm not saying anything of the kind. Of course one cylinder will be at the start of the power stroke, while the other is at the end of the exhaust stroke when both are at TDC. What difference does it make? The timing marks will be the same in either case. The only difference will be where the distributor rotor is pointing and what difference does that make?

You could turn the engine to TDC using the wire method, set the timing, NOT EVEN KNOWING which cylinder was on the firing stroke and it would work just as well.

By the way if you set the timing for 4 degrees BTDC all six cylinders are supposed to fire at 4 degrees BTDC. So in theory it would not matter which one you used to set the timing. As a matter of convenience we usually use #1 but as you can see, we could use #6 and it will work just as well.

[Rusty_OToole]

I'm now trying to get rid of some horrible vision of you trying to time your engine with a timing light while measuring TDC with a wire down the #6 cylinder with the engine running.

Once again, that is not it at all. Those engines can have the timing set with the engine stopped and no timing light. Here is how.

First find TDC with the wire method. Now turn the distributor until the points just open. There are at least 3 methods of determining this exactly. One is to use a 6 volt bulb connected from the "live" point to ground. When the light goes on the points are open. Another is to put a piece of cigarette paper between the points and tug on it gently as you turn the distributor, when it comes free the points are open. The third is to tune a transistor radio between stations and turn the ignition on, as you turn the distributor you will hear a "pop" as the points open.

That will time your engine to TDC and get it running so you can check it with the timing light. If you don't have the timing light, and want to set the timing somewhere else than TDC you can still do it. You have to figure out how far below TDC = the number of degrees you want and set the piston there.

[Guest Fitz]

The hole is to find top dead center of the #6 piston. You remove the plug from the hole and use a wire gauge to find TDC.

Thanks, I should think it by myself.....

Fitz.

[1936 D2]

OK. That clears it all up for me!

"Rusty_Otoole" - Posts #27 and #28 are an excellent reference for people to use to understand engine timing! Thanks a bunch! (BTW: Rest well. I would never have started the engine with the wire gauge in place. Wouldn't want to wreck a perfectly good tool!)

"Fitz" - Echoing the words of "Keiser31" in post #26: - Very sorry for hijacking your post. But I do think the info will be very useful for future readers that delve deeply into this thread since this does relate to your question in post #18, What is the plug in the cylinder head for above the #6 cylinder?

From all this I take away a much better understanding of the early Chrysler Corp. engines!

Edited November 22, 2010 by 1936 D2 (see edit history)

[Guest Fitz]

Don't worry,

to me the purpose of a forum is to help and inform the community about a subject.

Here the subject is a engine, so it's OK with me.

Fitz.

[Guest Fitz]

Update

I start the engine today on my bench. It run like a charm, now I have to remove everything I can before putting back into the B-12 Bombardier.

It's a tight place to put an engine. I will install all the accessoiries to it inside the snowmobile.

Fitz.

[Guest Albert]

1&6 2&5 3&4 pistons will all be at TDC at the same times,, as far as which one is on the firing stroke is how the valves are, if 1 & 6 are up at the same at TDC only one will be on the compression stroke (both valves closed) so the plug wires for #1 plug will be across from #6

[Guest Fitz]

what is now looking after paint and bench tested.

Fitz.

[KenHupp20]

Looks good Fitz . How about a photo of the B 12 ? Did you restore that as well ?

[Guest Fitz]

we did not restore the B-12, it's in overall good shape, but when the customer will drive is ``new`` engine and transmission, I think he will want some more work on it....we will see..

Thanks,

Fitz.