Keep getting punctures

[Lockhouse]

Hi

I keep getting punctures on my 52 Buick Sedan. I've had 6 in the past three months - all on different wheels. The garage says that the sides of the tubes have burst rather than something going through the tyre. I am running standard wheels with tubed tyres which I replaced six months or so ago - prior to that the car was not in my ownership.

Any ideas what might be the cause?

How easy is it to change to tubeless tyres? My '49 Sedan appears to have tubeless tyres - why not on my '52?

Thanks,

Andy

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Should be no problem to mount tubeless on your wheels. I did on my 1950's

Ben

[Guest NikeAjax]

First off, get some tires, instead of tyres, they just work better! Sorry Hoss, I just couldn't resist, after all, y'all make fun of us for calling it soccer!

I agree, get some tubeless tires, as I run them on my 1956; you'll notice a world of difference in stopping and handling, and wait till you get them on the freeway/highway/high-speed, you won't get stuck in grooves in the road like you do with bias-ply, this will greatly reduce your need to swear when driving and getting stuck like a needle on a record when there's a something weird on the road! Since you live in the U.K. where it rains a lot, stopping is way better/more assured with a set of radials!

Just a thought, good luck!

Jaybird

PS Being from California, where it only rains in the winter, we don't think about it too much!

[JohnD1956]

I have radials on my 56, and three of them have tubes. I bought these in 2003 when I put a set of wire wheels on my car. When I went back to steel rims I used the tubes so they would not dry rot.

I would think a few things here. First, and foremost, I imagine the tyres you already have can be run tubeless. But your original post does not say if the tyres or the tubes were replaced 6 months ago. If just the tubes, I would suggest you might have radial tubes with bias ply tires. I'm not even sure that would be a problem but something obviously is wrong.

I would suggest further checking the inside of the rim, and tires, to make sure there is no rust or scaling on the inside of the tire, hiting the tube.

Last, did your installer use talcum powder when installing the tubes? If not I would have him redo and pour some talcum powder into the tire befopre reinstalling the tubes, if you plan to reuse them.

[Lockhouse]

Thanks for the replies.

My tires (I will try to spell "properly" from now on) are Goodrich Momentum 225/75/R15 Tubeless Radials with a 3/4" whitewall. I bought them six months ago and have covered less that 1000 miles. They can be seen here.

The tubes I bought are here.

Is there a fundamental mismatch?

If the tires are designed to be tubeless why do they deflate when the tube bursts?

The wheels are riveted rather than welded so I thought I could not fit tubeless tires?

Thanks,

Andy

[JohnD1956]

It's tough to tell from the picture on the tube site, but my radial tubes have a diagonal pattern to them. Hundreds of diagonal lines very close together. I didn't see any such lines on the tubes in that picture.

As for the rims, the rivits should not leak air. And the tires go flat because the valve stem is not pressed into the rim, and the air can leak past it.

[JohnD1956]

Hold the presses! I'm incorrect. I just went to get a picture of that tube to post and it says right on it, NOT FOR USE WITH RADIAL TIRES. It's been so long since I've seen the tubes I cannot say for certain what the radial tube looks like. Perhaps you should check with the place you got them from, to make sure they are radial compatible?

[Lockhouse]

OK - thanks again. I will take the two burst wheels in at the weekend and have them re-fit the tires with no tubes and see what happens. That seems to be the easiest solution. In the interim I will also mail the supplier and see if the tubes are supposed to be used with radials. I am more and more certain there is abrasion or adherence between the tyre and tube causing the side of the tube to split.

Andy

[Guest Koala]

This may offer an explanation or at least give you something to look for.

Apparently there are some inferior quality tubes available which have been failing after a short time in use. Not sure if these are made in India or one of the Asian countries.

Also I have heard of cases where some new tyres (tires) have a sticker inside the tyre. This sticker has not been removed at the time of fitting and wears a hole in the tube after a short time in use.

Koala

[Patrick W. Brooks]

Hello Koala: Two thoughts come to mind. One is from a tire shop owner confirming my belief and one from experience.

First, tubeless were not engineered to have tubes (hence the name) and this can easily cause a great buildup of heat. I once bought tubless for my 1949 Buick and asked the tire shop owner about putting tubes in to see if he would say something different from what I thought was true. He said putting tubes in a tubeless tire was like putting a parka on in 100 degree weather. He said it could cause tire failure or worse. I agree.

Second, I had a flat in Kentucky on a BDE tour. There was a wear hole in the tube (not a tubeless tire) and we found a small rust spot on the inside of the rim which was like sand paper and had worn a hole in the tube. Unlikely this is your problem with so many flats. However, tubeless/radials flex much more than tube type and I could easily understand the wearing of holes in the tube as is moves against the pattern of material inside the tubeless tire.

Finally, I believe that people who have years of university education and have earned engineering degrees do actually know something. They have engineered tubless tires and there must be reasons why tubes are not and should not be used with tubeless tires. Otherwise, they would be named tube/tubeless tires indicating they work either way. Every time I change something from the engineered design I cause myself several new problems. This is just another example, in my opinion. Hope these thoughts are helpful.

Good Luck, Patrick W. Brooks

[buick5563]

Every time I change something from the engineered design I cause myself several new problems. )

Excellent point that too many people find out too late.

[NTX5467]

As noted . . . tubes for bias ply tires are definitely different from tubes for radial ply tires. The radial tire tubes are designed to handle the different flex properties of radial tires (especially the sidewall flex in a radial that does not exist in a bias ply tire, for example). So radial tubes for radial tires, bias ply tubes for non-radial tires. All tire shops USED to know that!

One time in the later 1970s, we had a company truck (which I drove) whose OEM Goodyear radials must have been magnetized as they attracted many nails. One time, a nail entered in the "no-repair zone", so rather than try to patch it, we put a radial tube in it instead . . . and it worked well for about 15K miles. Then, although it was a radial tube in a tubeless radial tire, the side wall flex did it in. The one hole which was not patched (in the no-repair-zone) started venting air from between the tube and tire when I aired it up the first time. That's when I knew what was going on. So, as the tires still had lots of tread left, we got another radial tube and did it again.

Also, as mentioned, with ANY tube, it's imperative that there not be any wrinkles in the tube as it airs up inside of the tire. A wrinkle is a later flex-break waiting to happen, hence the use of talcum powder (or similar) to let the tube move around a little and not wrinkle-up as it's aired up. It's also necessary to make sure that no air is trapped between the tube and the inside of the tire AND that there are no sharp edges on the wheel (whether from manufacturing, rust, or debris).

The only reason to use a tube in a tubeless tire would be due to the design of the wheel (manufactured for tubeless tires or not). You can also use a tube in a tubeless tire to compensate for puncture issues, but this is not a long-term fix and will not last as long as a normal vulcanized patch would last--in some cases, this is all you can do to save an otherwise good tire (as we did).

These have been my experiences and observations.

NTX5467

[Lockhouse]

Thanks very much for your replies. At the weekend I took the two punctured wheels into my local tire shop. The mechanic there spent a couple of hours on them. He sanded down the wheels to remove any surface rust and sharp edges then attempted to fit a tubless tire. He couldn't manage this because the valve hole on the wheels was too large for a standard car valve. He suggested that a truck or agricultural tire fitter who might be able to help. Has anyone else heard of this? Anyway we smothered the new tubes in talcum powder and fitted them. They were not "radial" tubes as such as I haven't yet been able to find any in the UK.

So there are two options that I will pursue when (if) the punctures recur; Fit tubless tyres with a larger valve seat. I will take the spare wheel into my local farm tire shop to see if they can help in the meantime. I will also keep searching for radial tubes.

Thanks,

Andy

[Patrick W. Brooks]

Good Morning: Was at the Iola swap meet this weekend and took the time to stop at one of the largest, if not the largest, retailer of antique style tires. Asked about using tubes in tubeless and was told that regular tubes may fail because of heat buildup. Tubeless evidently have a lighter carcass so as to assist in shedding heat. Putting tubes in allows a heat buildup which causes regular tubes to fail. The tech I talked to said radial tubes are available, even though the radials are tubeless, and these tubes are more heat tolerant and can be used with tubeless. Had never heard this before and have not checked it out. Take this information for whatever you think it is worth and make your own decisions. Always learning. Patrick W. Brooks:)

[idrjoe_sandiego]

Lockhouse and others: Your problem sounds all too familiar. Read my forum threads on the subject. Be sure to click on the pictures for a better look. Here's the link: http://forums.aaca.org/f143/warning-defective-inner-tubes-286287.html