1921 Coupe

[oldcar]

Hello

I am new to Packards and need some advice and information.

having completed the Dixie Flyer restoration I am considering my next project and have been offered this 1921 Packard Coupe. I am told the the body is unusual. Does anyone recognize it and able to tell me something about it?

The entire interior trim is missing and would like to see/learn what it should be. I don't know if it was originally a hard top or a convertible. Some photos of a complete original car would help in my decision making.

Bernie j.

[Ozstatman]

Bernie,

I have posted a link = Packard Motor Car Information - Interesting Single Six from down under [Packard Forums - Pre-War (1899-1942)] to this thread on the PackardInfo website.

[oldcar]

Thank you Mal

I am afraid I have a sharp learning curve ahead when it comes to Packards

Bernie j

[oldcar]

Hello all.

Since my last post we have been to the 75th Anniversary Celebrations and have now returned home via the Packard Museum at Dayton Ohio, Sth Carolina, Long Island and finally for a week in New York. I have now managed to find a photo of how the coupe should have looked except for the wheels.

I still have not bought this car but am slowly working around all the obstacles.

IF I do end up with it it will have to be re-bodied and have discussed this briefly with West Peterson. I will use the original fenders cowl and hood but would like to build a suitable replica sporting two seater on it.

Any suggestions?

[jeff_a]

Bernie,

Interesting Packard. Sounds like a great trip you went on to NY, SC, the Packard Museum in OH and the AACA 75th!

I'm not an authority on Packards -- but thought I'd throw in a few things. For some reason the 20's Packards appeal to me more than the 30's Packards.

In reading about 20's Peerless cars, I find a few similarities with other higher-priced makes. At one time, Packard, Pierce-Arrow and Peerless each had a line of cars with 288.6 cu. in., L-head Sixes, which is quite a coincidence, but I think that Packard led the way with this class of car. I looked at a 20's Six engine a neighbor had for sale a couple of years ago. The owner couldn't identify it, but it turned out to be a Packard Single Six. What was interesting was that the motor was almost identical to a 1924 Peerless Six I had seen a few months earlier. It looks to me like the Single Six Packard -- introduced for the 1921 model year -- may have influenced the similar Peerless engine {introduced in January, 1924}. Just my opinion.

Both engines have aluminum crankcases, distributors on top of the head, manifolds on the right side, cast-in rear motor mounting brackets, and even similar starter-motor setups. The Packard engine does have an aluminum oil pan (Peerless used steel) and the carburetors are quite different.

I came across a really nice-looking 1921 Packard Single Six for sale on the web about a year ago from SC, a Blue 5-Pass. Tourer. The owner said it was one of the first 1,000 Single Sixes built and had an aluminum body by Pullman. The headlight and instrument panel design were unique to the Pullman Packards (more ornate trim around instruments, less nickel on headlights). He said the Pullman bodies were used only on these early-production models. The bodywork in your photos doesn't look aluminum...this info may just tell you what this Australian Packard is NOT. This Blue 1921 Packard 116 was for sale at: www.gullwingmotorcars.com in Astoria, NY the last time I looked.

***** UPDATE: Looked today, Aug 21st, 2010, and saw it's still for sale with some nice pictures. The rad shell and headlights are painted black ----- and there is is a nice shot of the instrument panel. Price $29,500. Site address for dealer now correct and link now works. *****

I'm sure there are Packard Forum regulars who can tell you more about this auto you're interested in.

----Jeff

Edited August 21, 2010 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Hi Jeff

After what seems like months of talking it seems that The Packard is about to be my next project. The car has a part aluminum body. The cowl and hood are steel and the doors and rear half alloy. Once I get it home I will have a much better idea what really needs to be done. I want to try and use as much of the original body as possible. I lay awake for hours last night going through the possibilities.

Thank you for your interest

Bernie J

[Ivan Saxton]

Bernie, it has to be a first series six because of the lack of front brakes. Wheels are much later, because they should be 24 inch; and it is likely that some previous owner took Rudge 80 wire wheels to put on the later Packard the discs came from.

You are welcome to get measurements from the runabout body I have which is authentic 22-23 Packard. The engine is seven main bearing job, 3 3/8 by 5inch bore and stroke. Output is only listed as 54bhp, whereas the 4th series, which was more efficient, was said to have better performance. Chassis frames were not robust, and often were found with loose rivets. I don't know about that model, but the 4th series have a lot of troubles with the blocks, according to local experience.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Bernie no doubt the car will come out top notch and it seems a worthy investment in your time. Glad you plan to use what you can of the original body, although modified that is kind of part of it's history, and from the pictures it really doesn't look too bad in terms of the lines. Can't wait to follow this one - will you be posting updates in the restoration forum?

[Rusty_OToole]

I would consider rebuilding the body into a coupe again. If it is impossible to find the remains of the top, make a vinyl covered top. Make the framework of wood with steel reinforcements as they did when the car was new. Then form the shape with wire mesh. Finally cover the roof with cotton or foam padding and vinyl top material.

This is how many sedans and coupe bodies were built in the 1920s. It would be the easiest way to fix it and put back the strength lost by cutting the top off.

[Rusty_OToole]

A 288 or 289 cu in six cylinder engine of 3 1/2" bore and 5" stroke was a very popular design in the twenties. In addition to Peerless Pierce Arrow and Packard I believe Studebaker, Hudson and possibly others built engines of the same size. Whether anyone copied anyone else, or they all share a resemblance from being designed about the same time with the same level of technology is anybody's guess.

[oldcar]

Hello and thank you for your interest.

I am now fairly confident that the car was a "Holbrook" Doctors Coupe. The car is due to arrive at my home early this coming week (like Monday).

Having looked at again it is mechanically very complete and original. The motor turns and has good compression. It is my intention to start work on it right away. The Plan is to use all the existing body leaving it exactly as original up to the waist line, replacing the windscreen posts and fabricating new detachable side window frames from brass channel. The ultimate plan is to replace the missing roof with a folding "Drop Head Coupe" top. What I would really like to see are some detail photographs of the seating and interior trim arrangement. I believe that there may be a restored Doctors Coupe at the Fort Laudadale Museum. (Sorry about my spelling) First thing is to remove the fenders and start on repairing and damage and or rust.

Bernie J.

[oldcar]

The Packard is now secure in our car port (there isn't room in the garage/ workshop right now), the lights, the left hand front fender, the apron below the radiator and the running board have been removed. The plan is to remove all the fenders, running board/side-steps, valances and hood before starting work on stiffening the timber frame up to a point where the body can be safely removed. Having got this far I have been able to uncover the Chassis number *1128317* so now the car can be accurately dated.

The whole car will be dismantled down to a bare frame before rebuilding can commence in ernest. Meanwhile I know that I will be looking for a few things in order to complete this restoration. These will include a 23 inch disk wheel, a speedo and probably the smaller instruments, the spark and throttle levers from the centre of the steering wheel and an early series hinged radiator cap. Any of the early Packard people reading this "Please look in your spares and boxes of bits"

Having spent some time inspecting the underside of the car, more than ever I am convinced that it has done very few miles. The entire exhaust system is the original and there are very few signs of miss-use or make-shift repairs. the lining on the foot brake bands shows little or no wear. Having removed both front shackle pins when removing the front apron I found both to be almost un-worn.

See also todays photographs on my thread in Our Cars & Restorations

Bernie J

[oldcar]

Is this really how it happened? (attached cartoon form "Old Car Illustrated" Winter 1976.)

[oldcar]

Sorry about confusing you after looking more closely

the Chassis number is actually *U 28317*

Bernie J.

[oldcar]

For those who are not following my thread in "Our cars & Restorations" or the one in Packard "Buy & sell": among the more important items that I am looking for are a Series 1 speedometer (with clock) and a spare 23 inch disc wheel with lock rim.

Work on the coupe is progressing with the four fenders and the running boards and valences removed and ready to go to be bead blasted to make them ready for some panel beating. I am currently working at stiffening the timber body frame prior to removing the aluminum skin so that the few cracks can be repaired.

Bernie J,

[oldcar]

Hello Rusty

I have looked at the possibility of rebuilding the roof but have decided to continue on the soft top route. I have original drawings for the coupe but have decided that the Doctors Coupe, especially the original seating arrangement is just not practical, That is unless you are a Doctor wanting to use the car in your practice.

Re the engine I have not had the opportunity to look closely at a Peerless or a Pierce Arrow but I believe that Packard's valve lifting arrangement was possibly unique.

While I am new to Packards I am most impressed by the quality of the engine design and build.

Bernie J.

[oldcar]

This is the seating arrangement that I am refering to.

23P Plan view.pdf

[oldcar]

Hello Rusty

I have looked at all the options including rebuilding the roof but have decided to continue down the soft top path. Likewise I will not be using the original seating plan as I believe that it is just not practical for the type of use that I intend for the car. Some how I cannot see my wife either sitting on that little jump seat or taking to sitting in the back seat.

Attached are the original drawings for the Doctors Coupe.(sometimes referred to as an Opera Coupe)

Re the engine, I have not looked closely at either Peerless or Pierce Arrow but I must say that I was particularly impressed with the Packard's valve lifting arrangement and to the general quality of the design and build.

Bernie J.

23P Plan view.pdf

[oldcar]

In an attempt to avoid duplication and to save everyone some time I have decided to consolidate my threads/posts into the one on "Our Cars & Restorations" I hope that all the Packard purists who have been watching this are not too offended. It just means that I have a little extra time to put into my rebuild of the 1923 Series 1 Single Six coupe. I really do need all the time I can get.......

http://forums.aaca.org/f190/my-next-project-1921-packard-coupe-282900.html

Bernie J

Edited September 7, 2010 by West Peterson
Link added. (see edit history)