Hard to find a correct 65 GS Dual Intake?

[Guest ErikDurocher]

Hello,

I'm seriously thinking of buying a 65 GS - Matching # LX 425 & 400 w/ Posi - rebuilt motor, brakes, exhaust, etc. Runs well. Complete w/ delux int & loaded, but needs minor body work, paint, wood & other interior help ... $7,000ish.

BUT it's lost it's dual 4s set up, always in RustBelt small rust patches in rockers, trunk & wells, needs full strip, patches & prime paint, etc.

Any idea where I could find a correct dual 4 intake? -code B1357106B or 1370316 (right?) And how much I might expect to pay?

Carbs are available I know -but not sure of cost?

It's certainly a beauty worth saving, but I don't have shop or skills for bodywork/paint -would have that done.

Or, should I walk away from the poor ol rusty GS if I don't want to drop another $8K-$10K for bodywork & paint & seat covers, etc.

Thoughts?

[RivNut]

They appear on ebay often enough for you to get an idea of what's out there. Do you still have the a/c compressor bracket, valve covers, 2z4 distributor, and the bracket and switch for the switch pitch and kick down?

If all you're needing is the manifold, correct carbs, and chrome air cleaner, I'd guess you're going to have to lay out somewhere between $1,500 and $2,000

[Patrick91914]

Hello,

I'm seriously thinking of buying a 65 GS - Matching # LX 425 & 400 w/ Posi - rebuilt motor, brakes, exhaust, etc. Runs well. Complete w/ delux int & loaded, but needs minor body work, paint, wood & other interior help ... $7,000ish.

BUT it's lost it's dual 4s set up, always in RustBelt small rust patches in rockers, trunk & wells, needs full strip, patches & prime paint, etc.

Any idea where I could find a correct dual 4 intake? -code B1357106B or 1370316 (right?) And how much I might expect to pay?

Carbs are available I know -but not sure of cost?

It's certainly a beauty worth saving, but I don't have shop or skills for bodywork/paint -would have that done.

Or, should I walk away from the poor ol rusty GS if I don't want to drop another $8K-$10K for bodywork & paint & seat covers, etc.

Thoughts?

As one who is going through a '65 Riv GS restoration, here are some costs that you should think about as you ponder your purchase:

Interior - this means replacing these items:

Wood on doors and console + install

replace door panels front and rear

Headliner + install labor

Seat Covers

Rebuilding seats

Carpet

Sail panels

replate switich bezels

replace package tray + recover in vinyl

New lock buttons

new window fuzzies

Courtesy light lenses

courtesy light switch boots

Exterior

Door and Window rubber

Door handle rubber

Trunk Rubber (Bumpers and seal)

Polish stainless

Repair Body + Paint

Replate chrome wheels

Replace wheel center caps

Replate front and rear bumpers

Replate dual quad air cleaner

Super Wildcat Decal

Trunk

New cardboard

Decal

Fabric trunk kit

Spare tire cover

oh, and I forgot to mention rebuilding the motor.

The list goes on and easily exceeds $10k if you can do it yourself. Sometimes it's just better to find a completed car and let another pay for the restoration and the headaches.

By the way, I think $7k is waaaay too much for a rusty car that doesnt run and is missing the 2x4 setup. It sounds more like a $500 car to me.

[JZRIV]

Given a little time you could find the 2x4 parts you need but you must have the cash in pocket when they come up. There are so many non-Buick people after these for their custom rods they don't last long.

You may have to pay $1500 for an intake with carbs that need rebuilt. To have dual quads rebuilt you can start at $550 and thats if all the parts are there and the shafts don't need re-bushed.

$7k is seems high from what you have posted. Not sure how close you looked for rust in the floors but you need to really take the time to poke around.

I have been completely turned off by rusty cars due to the cost of repair. And not just because of the body expense but everything else on the chassis you touch has problems due to rust. I know a lot of very enthusiastic people who tackle these projects. As long as you know what you are in for as far as cost and time and you are OK with it thats fine. In my opinion you are way ahead to pay more up front and get a car that is mostly rust free.

Odd that the engine was rebuilt but the 2x4s are gone. Is there full documentation for the the engine rebuild? If not you must assume it may need rebuilt.

If you don't want to spend another $8-10K ( and it will be that plus 50%) Walk away. If you are dead set on a 65GS You are better off spending the extra money up front buying a complete car in all over very nice condition for maybe $20k that needs only minor detailing work.

Edited April 19, 2010 by JZRIV (see edit history)

[steelman]

I saw two at the Decatur swapmeet in Texas last month. Both with carbs and needing rebuilt. Both were in the $900-$1200 range. Not too bad at that price when they include the correct carbs. Offenhauser still offers new intakes for $450. Not original, but another option.

[RivNut]

This will give you an idea of the price that's being asked for the incomplete '65 GS.

http://stlouis.craigslist.org/cto/1698896348.html

If you're just wanting two four barrel carbs on a nailhead, there are cheaper ways.

Eelco in Oregon has a new aluminum 2x4 manifold for around $500. Data shows that its flow capabilites are right up there with Edelbrocks discontinued B262. That manifold flows better than Buick's OE manifold. Add a couple of Carter 650 AFB or AVS carburetors and you're ready to run for less than the OE setup.

Edited April 19, 2010 by RivNut (see edit history)

[tim63riv]

Patrick,

I'll take ALL the rusty, running 65 GS's with rebuilt engines that you can find for $500.00!!

Thanks in advance,

Tim

[George Buick Riviera]

Patrick,

I'll take ALL the rusty, running 65 GS's with rebuilt engines that you can find for $500.00!!

Thanks in advance,

Tim

Tim, don't take ALL, please leave few for me :-D

Edited April 20, 2010 by buick-riviera.pl (see edit history)

[tim63riv]

George,

OK, you can have a few of them too!

Tim

[Guest ErikDurocher]

Thank you Gentlemen, good advice all....

- I have found and likely buying a '65 OE dual quad intake (see pic)- stamp code 1370316B , clean & ready -for $400 delivered. May also get the fitting new, never used in plastic & boxes Edelbrock Perf. Quadrajet 600CFM carbs #1405 & #1406, one w/ manual choke. (see pic) -An extra $450 for the pair...from same guy. So, this seems like a great buy.

Yes, odd as it may sound -I think I'll buy the 2x4 intake & carbs before even getting the '65 Riv GS car... but there are more than a handfull of worn out ones to choose from missing the 2x4... And now I'm a member of the ROA without even yet owning one :-) - looking forward to all the great info & help from all the friendly ROA experts!!

Does anyone have any experience or knowledge of how these Edelbrock 600s do on the 425? I know that the stock Carters are 575CFM & I may want to burn less gas & go w/ 450-500CFM quads if I can find them -maybe trade for these new 600 Edelbrocks.

I'm still debating getting the $7K rusty, rebuilt, good running, Midnight Blue(now Burgundy)/Black deluxe '65 GS missing the 2x4 set up (otherwise complete, prior owner sold 2x4 set up during rebuild -wanted better mileage from 1 carb), -Now owner will also add a 2nd complete correct LX & BS codes '65 GS Bamboo/Black w/ it's 2x4 set up for another $2500. It too is quite rusty & needs floors, rockers, trunk, well patches, interior resto -etc. engine is not siezed -ran great 3 yrs. ago. Carbs are old needing rebuild, but it's also 95% there... $9500ish for 2 complete correct # matching "LX" 425 & "BS" ST400 '65 GS Rivs seems like a great find.

Yes, the rust repair/restoration is a huge daunting task -good list Patrick -thanks, I've considered most that & more -found sources for 95% of that -except the wood & dual quad air cleaner..? (but I'd be happy w/ non-stock finned oval one)

Also leaning toward a complete good running, shiny, older resto -'65 GS "rust free" (none showing) for $18Kish also missing the 2x4 set up - but it's a non-stock Red w/ Saddle -not my favorite combo.

-That's the latest, I'll update as fitting - any more tips on the Carter or Edelbrock carbs will be helpful. And oh, Patrick, Tim & George - I've got 1st dibbs on any $500 rusty '65 GS - I'll give you $700 for one - you guys already have nice Rivieras.

This link & attachments may be of interest - 425 Buick Nailhead - Street Rodder Magazine

Thanks & happy Riving to all.

-Erik

425 NailHead Carb notes.pdf

[RivNut]

Eric,

I believe that the stock carbs are 625 each.

There's a lady on the Yahoo RivList who has just advertised a '65 manifold for sale. She didn't list a price.

[Guest ErikDurocher]

Thanks RivNut,

I just emailed that lady about her intake ...

I saw this from a different ROA or Buick Forum post:

"CARTER AFB CARBS -the 425 2x4's are a smaller (575 CFM) size. If the original poster is interested here are the specs for the AFB Series Carbs:"

CFM Venturi Diameter Bore Diameter

primary secondary primary secondary

--------------------------------------------------------

400 1 1/8 1 1/4 1 7/16 1 7/16

500 1 3/16 1 1/4 1 7/16 1 11/16

575 1 1/4 1 9/16 1 9/16 1 11/16

625 1 3/16 1 9/16 1 7/16 1 11/16

750 1 7/16 1 9/16 1 11/16 1 11/16

Dual Quad Carb #'s

1964

Primary...... (Rear) 3646S Carter AFB for Automatic Trans

....................3634S Carter AFB 4 Speed

Secondary(Frt).................. 3645S Carter AFB (both Trans)

1965

Primary...... 3925S Carter AFB for Auto

.....................3924S Carter AFB 4 Speed

Secondary ...................... 3645S (same as 1964)

[tim63riv]

Erik,

If the 600's are Quadra-Jet style, they won't fit the manifold because they are a spread-bore design, much bigger secondary bores than the AFB's. The only way around that is to use carb adapters and that makes the air cleaner housing hit the hood on a first generation Riviera!

You could piece together a dual quad set up, but it might be easier and better to find a complete one. The interesting thing to me is that because of the HUGE stock aier cleaner housing, you really can't see the cabs anyhow!

God luck on your search!

Tim

[Guest ErikDurocher]

Hmm, now I'm flustered -can't find any correct Carter AFB 3925S & 3645S...

these Edelbrock 600s I may buy with the 2x4 intake show on box label that they are Square-Flange design (see pic) -guy with the intake says they fit right & are replacements for the Carters...

Would Square-Flange mean they are not QuadraJet -and thus fit without the adapters that raise carbs??

Sorry, I'm new to the carb terms - and yes, I should call Edelbrock & Carter...

Have any suggestions or sources for Carters?

PS: Is it safe to assume that I would want/use a manual or electric choke on the Primary Carb??

Thanks,

-Erik

[RivNut]

"The guy" is correct; these are direct bolt on replacements for the Carter AFB. Quite a few parts between the two carbs are interchangable. Yes, you will need to run some sort of choke. I ran a Carter Comp Series 750 cfm AFB on my Riv for a while and had it connected to a manual choke - but I found out that was just something to clutter up the underside of the dash. I opted for an electric choke and it worked just fine. There's an article in the Tech Tips section of the ROA web site that describes how to connect an electric choke using a oil pressure sending unit as a cut off switch for the 12V to the choke.

A Quadrajet carb is very much different than the square bore AFB's and their clones. The O-jet has two very small primary (200 cfm) and two very large secondary throttle blades (600 - 650 cfm). On the 2x4 aftermarket manifolds, you 1) couldn't bolt the carb to the manifold and 2) even if you redrilled some holes for mounting it, the secondary butterflies are so large, they'd never open into the secondary holes in the manifold.

However, if you really wanted to run a large volume of cfm's you could look for one of Offenhausers old two Q-jet manifolds for the nailhead. The carbs were spaced really far apart, but with two 800 - 850 cfm carbs, you could really go throuht some fuel.

Here's a link to the H.A.M.B that shows a picture of one. Compare it to the picture you posted of a stock Buick 2x4 intake.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=291131

Edited April 21, 2010 by RivNut
Add link to pictue (see edit history)

[Guest ErikDurocher]

Thank you for the info.

I think I'll pass on the new $250 600cfm Edelbrocks from the guy w/ the intake - as I can get them remanufactured for $170 -$180 ea. (After I get the car) I think I'd go with the 500cfm #1404 here Edelbrock Carburetors at discount prices and with Lifetime Warranty!

Or the set of 2 rebuilt 500 or 600cfm Carters shown here for $435 or $410 2x4 Dual Quad Sets

Anyone else recommend Manual or Electric choke?

Cheers,

-Erik

[tim63riv]

Erik,

The Edelbrock's are NOT a "direct bolt on replacement" for the Carter AFB. The air cleaner flange is larger on an Edelbrock than on a Cater AFB so the stock air cleaner won't fit without adapters, which increase the height of the carbs and push the stock air cleaner into the hood AGAIN! If you aren't concerned about originality, the Edelbrocks with individaul aftermarket air cleaners would work just fine and would actually give some visability to the dual quad set up.

All that being said, the original Carters show up on ebay quite often along with complete dual quad set ups, so you do have a lot of options!

Tim

[RivNut]

I bow to Tim. I forgot that when I was running the aftermarket Carter AFB on my '63, I had to use an aftermarket breather and filter. The necks on the aftermarket AFB's are the same diameter as the Rochester Quadrajet. Although they will physically bolt to the manifold, another problem that you'll run into that makes them not a direct replacement carb is that you'll have to come up with some way to connect your kickdown / switch pitch functions to the carburetor.

Ed

[Guest ErikDurocher]

Thanks fellas,

I think I'll just get the intake (or 2) for now & wait on the carbs until after I get a '65 GS. - Seems that there is a big supply of the "replacement" Square Flange 500-600cfm Edelbrocks for around $200ea w/ waranty -Remanufactured or New.

And I like the look of an aftermarket chrome oval/finned or dual round air cleaners (lower than OE cleaner)... so I'd rather deal with no adapter/spacer under carbs -and likely no adaptor to fit Aftermarket Edelbrock air cleaner/s. -As the kick-down/switch pitch conection puzzle will be "fun" enough.

-- Still trying to get more info on the cars I'm considering.

Does it sound right that the '65 GS Block # is LX307, 5H921398 ? - should the 307 be the last 3 digits of the VIN (635)? -As the VIN on this car is 02B65-49447FB117635 body

Same story on 2nd '65 GS w/ motor # LX361, 5H927453 & VIN of ST65-49447FB149597 body

Doesn't look like the Block #s match the VINs - though are correct LX blocks...?

Perhaps both of these had engines replaced w/ other '65 GS LX blocks...?

Cheers,

-Erik

[Guest ahhh65riv]

I've attached the photo of my set-up. I am using the Eelco intake and twin Edelbrock 650 AVS. I will be using a Moon finned oval air cleaner to show off the duals. This one will work with the Eelco spacing. Product Details: 2X4BBL Oval Fined Air Cleaner on Mooneyes Online Store

The other photo below shows how the kickdown switch braket needs fabricated to work with the Edelbrock carb linkage (cardboard template piece). The inset photo shows how the original AFB looks.

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<o:lock aspectratio=" border=" alt="" 0?>Erik</o:lock>

<o:lock aspectratio=" border=" alt="" 0?>(Yes, another Erik that loves 65 Riv GS's!)</o:lock>

[RivNut]

Jegs and Summit sell aftermarket switches to operate the electric kickdown on any TH400. They can probably be adapted to work on a switch pitch as well.

The three digit number that appears with the LX is not really a reference to anything. Maybe it's a production code, but I've never seen anything in print or heard of anyone that knows its significance.

[Guest ErikDurocher]

Nice, good to see - thanks for sharing... looks like another crafty Erik with good taste in cars.

Oh, and thanks RivNut - I had read somewhere that those 3 digits after the LX are suposed to be the same as last 3 in the VIN. But I guess that doesn't make sense due to the blocks being cast/made weeks before the actual car... I'll just believe that both these cars have their orig. 425 from the factory.

-Erik

Edited April 22, 2010 by ErikDurocher (see edit history)

[Patrick91914]

Thanks fellas,

I think I'll just get the intake (or 2) for now & wait on the carbs until after I get a '65 GS. - Seems that there is a big supply of the "replacement" Square Flange 500-600cfm Edelbrocks for around $200ea w/ waranty -Remanufactured or New.

And I like the look of an aftermarket chrome oval/finned or dual round air cleaners (lower than OE cleaner)... so I'd rather deal with no adapter/spacer under carbs -and likely no adaptor to fit Aftermarket Edelbrock air cleaner/s. -As the kick-down/switch pitch conection puzzle will be "fun" enough.

-- Still trying to get more info on the cars I'm considering.

Does it sound right that the '65 GS Block # is LX307, 5H921398 ? - should the 307 be the last 3 digits of the VIN (635)? -As the VIN on this car is 02B65-49447FB117635 body

Same story on 2nd '65 GS w/ motor # LX361, 5H927453 & VIN of ST65-49447FB149597 body

Doesn't look like the Block #s match the VINs - though are correct LX blocks...?

Perhaps both of these had engines replaced w/ other '65 GS LX blocks...?

Cheers,

-Erik

Eric,

The VIN on the 65 Riv is located in the forward door jamb adjacent to the dash board just below the windshield pillar. It can be seen when the driver's door is open.

The number you describe as the VIN, "ST65-49447FB149597," is the number from the body plate located on the fire wall and is not your VIN. For example, the VIN on my '65 GS is 494475H905960. The engine block is stamped "84 LX 7 H905960." (Does anybody out there have a lower VIN? If so, I'd love to hear from you especially if your car is a Gran Sport)

The numbers following "FB" in the number your provided is the fisher body number and I beleive has no relationship (legal or otherwise) to the VIN. I think it's some sore of sequence number.

So, to answer your question, to have a number matching GS your block would have the LX designation followed by "H927453" and the car's VIN would be 495575H927453.

In any event, it's less important to have a matching number '65 Riv GS that to be sure that you have the complete package, LX Block, BS code tranny, correct distributor, posi, correct springs, and correct "Gran Sport" badges in their proper size proper location.

[Guest ErikDurocher]

Excellent helpfull information Patrick - thank you!!

[41specialman]

Hey Eric, I have a 65 riv gs if you are still looking. A colorado car and has slim to no rust on it. Green with green interior. switch pitch posi 2x4 not on car no air cleaner was not with when I purchased it. I have had it 10 yrs it runs but never had it on the road. I would take $7,000.00 OBO Jeff