Need advice on Lubrication of 29...

[Echo Robert]

At the risk of starting a battle on the forum, I'm seeking advice on what people are using for the late twenties studebakers. The owners manual I have lists the following:

Engine oil: "any good quality...medium grade in warm weather"

Rear Axle: "Light transmission grease or heavy transmission oil for warm weather. In cold weather, a lighter grade of winter lubricant should be used."

Transmission: Same as rear axle is listed.

Universal Joints: "Spicer Universal Joint Grease"

Steering Gear: "Standard Oil steering Gear Grease No. 20"

Reach Rod: "A medium cold test engine oil"

Oil cups and Oil Holes: "A medium engine oil, except electrical equipment where a high-grade, light oil should be use."

Grease Cups, Grease Gun fittings and Wheel Bearings - "A light cup grease"

Generator and Starter bearings: "A high-grade, light oil'

So, I'm new at working on a '29 (and a novice mechanic at that), but usually I have more specific instructions to go by. Any suggestions for the above? Are most lubrication materials that are on the market okay for these vehicles? I'm already aware of the ZDDP issue with engine oil on older vehicles.

Thanks again for helping out a novice.

Robert

[dictator27]

If you are concerned about the ZDDP, a good quality diesel rated oil is best. It has more ZDDP because of the higher pressures in a diesel engine. Either 15/40 or 20/50 multigrade.

For the transmission and rear end, straight 90 weight gear oil, no additives. This can be a little difficult to find. Additives may attack bronze bushings.

For u-joints any good chassis grease.

For the steering gear probably the 90 weight gear oil. I'm guessing here, so if someone else knows something better please chime in. Haven't gotten there yet with my 27.

For the reach rod, oil cups and oil holes straight 40 weight oil

For grease cups and grease fittings any good chassis grease.

For wheel bearings obviiously use wheel bearing grease.

For generator and starter bearings 3in1 oil.

Hope this helps. Anyone else? I would not be surprised to see other opinions here.

Terry

[Guest stude8]

The transmission oil may be desirable to be heavier than 90W.

Lighter oil when warm can make double clutching downshifts difficult because the cluster gear will spin too freely (due to its inertia).

A friend with an earlier car, 1911, had severe shifting problems and was told to switch to 600W. Eventually a special lube of 1500W sold by Restoration Services out West cured all shifting problems. Driving experience will dictate what oil you will want in there. Stude8

[pgb123]

What model studebaker are you working on? I have a 1929 stude Pres FE. The engine is rebuilt now and I used a 20w-50 engine oil. After driving it for an hour or so the engine oil pressure began to drop from what I believe is thinning of the oil due to heat. The day was warm as well.

There were no knocks in the engine or oil leaks. In fact, the oil level was checked before starting the engine. At the end of the drive there was no loss of oil or leakage. So I am definatley curious as to how you have made out with your car's engine. What is ZDDP.

I am new to the studebaker club as well. thanks Paul

[drdon]

PGB:

ZDDP is Zincdialkyldithiophosphate, which is a long name but only thing you need to know is that it is a friction reducer. Used to be in oil, now is restricted from modern cars due to its apparent negative effect on the catalytic converters.

For the old iron, you need to buy and use ZDDP to keep the engine bearings, etc. from early failure. (At least that is what I've been told- but what does an old retired dentist know anyway.)

[Echo Robert]

I just run basic 30W oil - taking 8 quarts to fill it, but add the ZDDP to it. drdon has it correct...there is quite a bit of information on it at the studebaker driver's club forum, and other makes/car clubs recommend it as well (my uncle, an MG enthusiast, was the first to mention it to me). Anyhoo....I figure it can't hurt in an 80 year old engine.

I have a 1929 Dictator GE, 6cyl. I've not run into the oil pressure problem, but am not the expert that others are here. Did the 27 President have the screen type oil filter, or is it like mine with a partial flow filter added on after the fact?

[pgb123]

Thanks for your help. The screen filter was removed and a modern style filter assembly was installed. I am thinking that there may be a problem with the oil pump itself. Why it should show up now I can not think of. I broke in the engine with about 20 hrs of run time and always had good pressure. In talking with a few people there is an oil pressure relief valve in the front of the car. As I understand it, this was used to help relieve high pressure. I need to put an inquiry into the forum to learn more. Thanks Paul

[Guest stude8]

Atten: Paul

I can't find a photo to post here at the moment but you should be advised that the 1929-31 Studebaker Presidents used a die cast zinc oil pump body which IS PRONE TO FAILURE at this age. They are rectangular and have bolt holes at each of the four corners that secure it to the pickup casting assy. The aged diecast tends to crack across these corner hole areas that allows the pressurized oil in the center gear cavities to leak out and in severe cases blow the side walls outward for total oil pressure loss to engine lubrication passages.

These pump bodies were reproduced in the 1980's by Lionel Stone in California and were made of bronze so as to be failure proof in the future. Lionel had a bad accident a few years ago and discontinued his parts supply business. I don't know if anyone has assumed reproducing the President 8 pump bodies since?

I would avoid operating your engine until dropping the oil pan and inspecting the oil pump body for fractures. It isn't a difficult job, just dirty and oilly.

Stude8

[Guest stude8]

I located the article published in 1985 Antique Studebaker Review relative to the President 8 oil pump failures and how to install the reproduction pump body. You can see the failure condition in the photos.

Stude8

[rbk]

Look at this previous post.

http://forums.aaca.org/f126/1930-president-oil-pump-276318.html

When you installed the oil filter,did you install a restrictor in the supply line?

If you do not install a restrictor ,too much oil goes through the filter and bypasses the engine and reduces the oil pressure.

Restrictor fittings are available.

Robert Kapteyn

[Guest Earl]

I would not use 3 in 1 oil in your generator as the pariffin in it will make it really gummy in time. If you need to oil something with sewing machine oil, I would get the regular Singer sewing machine oil. It does not have pariffin in it.

In the 1942 Shop manual it reads ... and should be lubricated with a few drops of light engine oil (S.A.E. 20 or 30) approximately every 1000 miles.

[pgb123]

Wow! I want to thank all of you who have helped me with my questions. I did install the origional oil pump and did check it over for cracks and did not find any in the main body. I did notice some hair line cracks in the casting where the bolts go through. So, I let the pump soak in a solvent for a couple of days to remove the oil and used JB weld to help seal up these cracks. I do agree with Stude 8 that this is the cause of the drop in oil pressure. I am thankful that it was not a catastrophic oil pump failure.

I am also thankful to Bob Kapteyn to help me out and also for the important information on the oil pumps from Stude 8.

This restoration has been a challanging experience for me and I appreciate all of the feedback-Paul

[pgb123]

There was no oil restrictor in the supply oil line to the oil filter. Why did you find you had to put one in line and was original equipment or something you intalled to increase oil pressure? I would be afraid of the restricting the amount of oil going to the filter, but I may be wrong. Also, would not you hear more engine noise when the engine if first started and warming up until there was sufficent flow? Paul

[Guest stude8]

Paul

My first concern for your President engine was the story it had a recent rebuild and second you were new to the Studebaker President 8 hobby and possibly had not understood the oil pump age problems it caused. Sure didn't want to hear the oil pressure was so low as to damage the new bearings or worse.

I owned a 1930 President for 27 years and had gone through every problem I think there could have been in the time span. If done correctly the President 8 is a very durable engine and will hold up for a lifetime. They did very well at Indianapolis Speedway in the 1930's so that should be a good credit for them.

Keep us posted on your progress with the repro oil pump. Several experienced folks like StudeRex and RBK can be trusted for good instructions about things you have questions about.

About the oil filter restriction question, original "PanCake" style filters were partial flow types and some people believe even NO oil filter is OK if you change oil more frequently to eliminate suspended dirt in the engine lube. Can you post a photo of the filter installation you are using?

I have a 1928 Commander Big Six that I added a modern spin off filter using a Summit Racing adapter located under the running board area so as not to call attention to it. Photo attached for reference.

Stude8

[pgb123]

Hi Stude8,

Thank you for your help. The car was fitted out with a canister style oil filter, not the screw in type. It is a fram filter. I am a pretty good wrench turner, but some of this pot metal stuff I have not run into, especially in carberators and oil pumps. I feel pretty good about the engine once I get the oil pump body replaced. I am pleased with the work I have done on the engine, knowing that there is always a "get-to-know-you" time period.

You have helped explain to me why the oil pressure dropped. The thing I find hard about this car is finding parts, and I have found this forum very helpful. I am thankful people like yourself are willing to help novices.

The car is not immediately avialable. I was driving it down to have it reupholstered when the problem occurred. I am so glad it happened now and not on a tour. I will send you photos later this week of the car oil system. thanks Paul

[GE Dictator 1928]

I have a question on the types of motor oil. I was raised on using "Virgin 40 weight". I found a guy who has just that. Straight 40 weight non-detergent oil. I asked him about ZDDP and Zinc use in motor oil and told him about my '28 GE Dictator. He said that I could use it, but couldn't understand why I would, as according to him, Zinc wasn't added to oil until the 60's. The guy I would be getting this from is a custom blendor of Industrial oils and lubricants and said he could add whatever I wanted to , but felt that his straight 40 weight without any additives would be what I would have gotten in 1928. However, I keep hearing horror stories, that if we don;t add Zinc to oil, the engines are going to lose bearings, etc. Anyone have an insight here?

[pgb123]

I recently came across an advertisement in one of the Classic Car Clubs of America. The Indiana region of the CCCA is doing a project with on Classic car motor oil. The website is Classic Car Motor Oil. The club talks about the DVVP and why zinc is good for early cars. I hope this will help you. Paul

[rbk]

The oil filter is parallel to the oil pump.

If there is no restrictor in the input line , too much oil will

go thru the filter and none is left for the bearings.

Only a small percentage of the oil should go to the filter

The oil keeps going around and chances are that all the dirt is

filtered out eventually.

If you plug the inlet fitting for a test, you can see if that is your problem.

Robert Kapteyn

[rbk]

By the way.I saw in another post that you ordered an aluminum reproduction oil pump

body from "ols car dog "How was the quality and fit?

Robert Kapteyn

[Guest Studebaker1925]

I am biased since I used to work for Shell but I used the best oil you can get (used in most 18 wheelers in the US and proven best over 1 000 000 miles for an engine): Shell Rotella T. you need to find a jobber to get it. I am now in Europe and the oil chemistry here is very different.

Steve

[Guest Studebaker1925]

...on the question of a modern oil with additives vs. straight oil: I have no idea why anyone would use any oil type of oil with no additives: Modern oil keeps it's viscosity over a wide temperature range, keeps surfaces clean, reduces corrosion, lasts longer (oxidation), copes with fuel dilution better and also, of course, lubricates. Buying a good quality oil is important. If your engine does not have rubber or neoprene seals, then changing between a synthetic to a mineral oil and visa versa should not be an issue (though the Shell oil guys used to tell me that mineral oils are better). If you do have seals in the engine, they will shrink if you change from a mineral to a synthetic oil and then leak.

My 2 cents worth.

Steve