AACA Judging Credibility

[Steve Braverman]

I don't know how this thing won a national first. If it looks this bad in photos, it must look even worse in person. There are so many details wrong.

Plymouth:eBay Motors (item 110457408916 end time Nov-23-09 17:08:18 PST)

I wonder if somebody just stuck the plaque on the car.

Edited November 14, 2009 by Steve Braverman (see edit history)

[Shop Rat]

The cutline says that it won the Junior and Senior Awards in 2004. That isn't that long ago. The records should still be available and with those the awards would be pretty easy to verify. It says the car came from PA to them near Charlotte.

[Steve Braverman]

Whoever judged this car and awarded it a first has no business judging cars of this type. There is something very wrong in almost every photo. The paint is a non-authentic color, the upholstery is wrong, it has sealed-beam headlights, and the door handles are wrong. Even though it is a PA Thrift model, I believe the interior trim should be wood-grained, not painted metallic blue. The front bumper medallion is upside down. It has a home-made number plate attached to the firewall with pop rivets, and it's crooked. It has what looks like a modern light switch drilled into the dash, along with incorrect dash knobs.

I know the PA Thrift had a lot of differences from the regular PA to lower the price, so somebody please let me know if I'm wrong.

[Guest billybird]

Steve: There is no mention of this car in my 2009 AACA winners book. There are only 5 Jr. winners listed in class 20B for the year 2004. This book lists every winner since 1952,year and location of first Jr. owners name at that time and any awards won since then. I'm not saying its a fraud I'm just saying it's not in the book.

[Steve Braverman]

Steve: There is no mention of this car in my 2009 AACA winners book. There are only 5 Jr. winners listed in class 20B for the year 2004. This book lists every winner since 1952,year and location of first Jr. owners name at that time and any awards won since then. I'm not saying its a fraud I'm just saying it's not in the book.

How does one get a copy of the winners book?

[Guest billybird]

You can probably call National Headquarters in Hershey and order one. However, I usually just pick one up at one of the National Meets I attend each year. I've been buying one for years as it is an interesting publication. Ten bucks.

[MCHinson]

Obviously the records are available to determine if the car won the award or not. The other thing to remember is that the car is alleged to have won the Junior and Senior in 2004. That is 5 years ago. Assuming it won, a lot could have changed in 5 years. Someone could have easily added the sealed beam bulbs, someone could have added additional "improvements" that were not correct. Without knowing the chain of events from 2004 to now, including how many owners the car has passed through, it is not really fair to claim that the judges did not know what they were doing 5 years ago. Also, remember that you can have a lot of point deductions and still win a Senior Award if you are in a class with little competition.

The Senior Award photo on the auction appears to me to show number W16924. Assuming I am reading number in the photo correctly, National could determine if it belongs on the car. I also have faith that the current seller would be glad to confirm the Award number to interested parties.

Assuming a few easily changed wrong items were not in place 5 years ago, assuming the car had no competition in its class, (maybe it was a rainy show day), I have no problem thinking this car could have received a Senior Award. As long as it did not receive over 25 deductions, it could have earned the award

[Steve Braverman]

Also, remember that you can have a lot of point deductions and still win a Senior Award if you are in a class with little competition.

As long as it did not receive over 25 deductions, it could have earned the award

I always thought car competed against a point system, and not against each other.

[MCHinson]

That is what I consider a slight misconception about AACA Judging. You can debate it both ways but here is my attempt to explain it:

All cars enter the showfield at 400 points. They lose points for deductions noted by the judges. As long as it earns 375 points it is eligible for a Senior Award.... BUT, if another car in the class earns over 10 points more, the car would not receive a Senior Award, it would receive a 2nd, essentially it would be knocked out of "1st" by the often debated 10 point rule.

So, for example, assuming a car earned 375 points and was alone in its class, it would receive a Senior Award. If the same car was in a meet and another car in the same class earned 386 points, the 375 point car would NOT receive a Senior Award, it would receive a 2nd and the 386 point car would be the only car in the class to receive the Senior Award.

I suggest you get involved in Judging, it is an interesting part of the hobby.

[Dynaflash8]

The first point is that the man above said it's not in the book. If so, it becomes obvious that the plaques came from something else. The second point was made that in five years it could be turned into a street rod, not to say this car is now a street rod, but it wouldn't be the first time that happened either.

[Shop Rat]

.....The Senior Award photo on the auction appears to me to show number W16924. Assuming I am reading number in the photo correctly, National could determine if it belongs on the car.

Matt,

By any chance have to asked Steve to verify that number and what it is supposed to be on? I looked at the photo and I read the number the same way you do.

[MCHinson]

I was sort of thinking about asking Steve to research the issue. If it has been removed from another car and put on this one in an attempt to mislead a buyer, I would think that someone needs to contact the seller and let him know that the award does not belong on the car. I think the seller's reputation is such that he would remove the badge and correct the information in the auction.

[Steve Moskowitz]

The plaque shown was not won by this car, I am sure the seller was not aware of this but is now.

As we suspected, the seller of this car had no idea the badge was not correct for this car. He is removing the car completely from eBay. He is thankful that this was caught as his reputation is very important to him. He is an AACA member and bought the car sight unseen on the basis that it was a AACA senior car.

Edited November 16, 2009 by Steve Moskowitz (see edit history)

[MCHinson]

Thanks Steve.

[Shop Rat]

One has to wonder if the car that was for sale was at one time owned by the same person that had the vehicle that actually won it. Or if they kept it when they sold the one that won it feeling that it belonged to them rather than with the vehicle, and as such put it on this one as a keepsake. Or if someone just flat out lied about it.

[Guest billybird]

One sad part of this story is; there is now a Senior vehicle somewhere with no badges to show for it.

[Steve Moskowitz]

Susan, I think one should not "wonder" as that leads to a lot of conversation that is only speculation! It could have happened for a lot of reasons, the fact is that it happened and the seller is dealing with the issues. He is sending the badge back to us for our disposition, I have contacted the person who originally had the badge, and the car is being removed from eBay.

The most important thing is that the plaque has been removed and the current seller immediately stepped up to the plate and fixed the problem. The car has already been removed from eBay! Nice to deal with people who have integrity.

Billy, it is not uncommon for sellers to remove award plaques from cars that have won and we have no problem with that being done. We have a process here to mark cars as being "retired".

A lot of people contact us to check out if a car has actually won an award in AACA. We are happy to help out. I would recommend anyone doing so if they are at all suspicious or unsure of a car. (cars are aka vehicles!)

[Steve Braverman]

I am very glad that this was resolved. Finally, my complaining amounted to something

[Guest Backyardmechanic]

I have been reading this tread. It was my understanding that when a senior car was sold that the senior badge was to be removed and sent back to AACA and the new owner if he/she wish had to have the said car judge over to regain the senior plaque. If I'm wrong please correct me

Thank you.

vernon Barker

[MCHinson]

Backyardmechanic, a second option was approved in 2006 which allows an award to stay with a vehicle upon its sale. Here is the explanation from the Judging Guidelines:

6. CHANGE OF OWNERSHIP - OPTION 1

When a SENIOR vehicle changes hands

by sale or transfer, the vehicle reverts

to the status of a First Junior award winner.

The Senior Tab is returned

to the

National Headquarters by the seller

or person

transferring

the vehicle. If the vehicle

has received the A.G.N.M. FIRST PRIZE

plaque, the plaque will be returned

to

AACA Headquarters. (This plaque may be

returned to the previous owner, stamped

“RETIRED”, for a covering

fee of $5.00.)

If the vehicle is an Annual National Award

winner

and has received a National

Award

winner tab, the tab will remain the property

of the seller and must be removed

from the

vehicle upon transfer of ownership.

7. Change of Ownership - OPTION 2

Effective 2006, it is permissible for an

AACA class judging award winning vehicle

to retain the awards it has previously won.

In this case, the new owner can continue

entering the vehicle in national meets

and pursue the next eligible award. For

example, if the highest award the vehicle

has previously won is a Senior, then the

vehicle can compete for the Annual Grand

National Award. Please contact National

Headquarters to advise us of your purchase

and judging status of the vehicle.

[Steve Braverman]

Of course there is no way to enforce any rule requiring a person to return an award. If I were either selling or buying a First Place winning car, I would want the plaque left on the car.

I never thought that someone would fraudulently attach an AACA badge to a car for the purpose of falsely representing a car. Some people have no morals.

[Shop Rat]

Susan, I think one should not "wonder" as that leads to a lot of conversation that is only speculation! It could have happened for a lot of reasons, the fact is that it happened and the seller is dealing with the issues. He is sending the badge back to us for our disposition, I have contacted the person who originally had the badge, and the car is being removed from eBay.

Steve, I am sure that I am not the only one that wondered how this came about. And some even jumped to the conculsion that there was wrongdoing on the seller's part, which I did not do. The first part of my message was that it might have been an innocent reason how it happened, that it was a keepsake and the owner didn't understand that award badges should not be transferred from one vehicle to another.

Like you I am very pleased that all parties concerned have done the right thing in this case. It speakes very well of them to do so.

[Guest Backyardmechanic]

Thank you for the reply on the senior badge as I'm looking at a 34 Plymonth that is a Grand National winner.

Vern

[Dynaflash8]

One reason the rule was changed was because people didn't follow the old rule and there was no way to enforce it. That's just one reason.

Also, as was the case in one instance at Palm Springs, there is no way to stop people from making modifications AFTER they have won their Junior or Senior. It is just something buyers have to guard against.

And finally, the Winners Book is available for purchase from Headquarters. This Winners book is something that sets an AACA win apart from any other trophy winning. It's not forgotten the following Saturday, but the record of the accomplishment lasts "forever". Of course we know "nothing is forever" and "forever is a very long time". If you prefer, use "forseeable future".

[pistoncollector]

Mathew,

There is another possibility. Our judges might have known so little about the particular car that they did not take off enough points. Consequently, it scored higher than it should have and recieved a Senior Award.

I have seen a number of cars sporting Senior badges they recieved this year (2009) that should not have even recieved a 3rd Junior ..... let alone a Senior.

The awards we have given out over the last five or so years, in a great many cases, have been questionable at best. We need to do something about this trend as it is affecting the integrity of our system.