Avanti R2, 1963, refresh

[unimogjohn]

Vern, we do not get much snow here, but the cover is three layers thick. Here is their web site for garages. You might want to just give them a call and ask what the snow load is. I see a lot of these type of covers in Canada too, so they must be able to handle some heavy snow. The metal framing is beefy so I do not think that would be an issue either.

ShelterLogic - Garages: Barn If you call, let us know what you found out.

Edited November 30, 2009 by unimogjohn (see edit history)

[unimogjohn]

It is Monday, November 30th. Took the kids back to the airport, a five hour round trip, so the day is almost shot. Cold, wet, and windy here today too.

I did take the opportunity to head into town and hit the local Home Depot for a tap. They did not know what I was talking about, and had nothing. So headed to a local hardware store, they had individual taps, but nothing in the pipe grade. I was ready to leave and looked into their junk bin of one "somethings" and found what I was looking for, the 1/8 27 thread pipe tap. I was happy and only $5. The cheapest thing on this Avanti so far. So if the weather holds tomorrow I will see if she works. Thanks to Stude8 this might do it. I included a pic.

Called Bill the alternator man, and he said that the stator was suspect so he has sent it out to be rewound. He expects that it will be back at the end of the week so probably it will be next week before he gets it all back together. Boy, at this rate it is going to be winter before we get her back on the road.

While at Home Depot I picked up a workshop lamp and put it in the Avanti garage. Looks like it will do the job of having a little light in there, and may even get another one. The cost was about $30. Oh, and we do have the garage anchored down with the six three foot screws that came with the garage. It is not going anywhere.

I am also certain that at some point this winter I will replace the valve stem seals so picked this tool up on Ebay. Also bought air fittings that will go into the spark plug hole to hold the valves up while I am replacing seals. Have never done this before so it should be interesting. Included is a pic of the tool.

Going to call Jon Myers tomorrow. Where is that supercharger?

[Guest stude8]

The 1/8-27 tap looks like the one you need from the photo, be sure to get it started true and into existing threads to clean up the hole perfect. The 3/8-24 tap may have scuffed the tops of a few lower threads so chasing with the right 27 thread tap deep enough will be good. Just use a liberal coat of Permatex #2 sealer on the new fitting and that will seal up any leaky threads just fine.

Changing the stem seals is something Studebaker V-8's need every so often, if you haven't bought the seals yet try to get ones with a Teflon collar that rides on the valve stem. Read the shop manual carefully about removing the rocker arm shaft and posts assembly. The shaft has some rules about oil feed slots location and some of the mtg post bolts have under size diameters that go in certain holes to allow oil feed around them up to the shaft. It is possible to reassemble it wrong and get little no oil to the rocker shaft if I remember right.

Air pressure in the cylinder you are working on is good to hold the valve seated while replacing the seal, best to have the cylinder at TDC on compression cycle with both valves closed. I can't remember if the valve stems are long enough to stop against the piston top and still stick up far enough to pull back out if they slip away from you while working. Maybe a small OD magnet pickup tool could draw them back up out of the head guide?

Stude8

[unimogjohn]

It is Tuesday, December 1st. Cold here this morning, 25 degrees so did not venture out until it hit 40 or so. Had to pull off the two rounds of hay on the Unimog. The mog is now is the pasture stuck in the mud, no problem, just wait for the morning freeze and drive her out. I could drive her out now, but that would just tear up the pasture and make more mud.

While waiting for the sun I decided to install the roll up feature on the Avanti garage. Works like a roman shade. But I hated to cut a couple of slits in the cover. Works good, and easier to get the car and/or tractor out.

So, now my courage worked up, I decided to run the new tap. All went well and it went in straight and true. Made sure everything was clean and no debris. Nope, that new fitting is just too bunged up from my previous attempts to go in smooth. I then tried a good threaded fitting, but not the right one, and it went in great. So decided not to force the fitting and will head down this afternoon and get a new one. So tomorrow will be the day for the installation. I have no doubt that it will work OK.

[unimogjohn]

It is still Tuesday, getting dark, but decided to see if the new fitting screws in correctly. Well, it went right in, so put on some Permatex 2 sealer and screwed her in four and a half turns. It is tight so just going to let it sit for the night and not start the engine. The hose installed nicely too. Pic attached.

I also got the newly serviced AM radio back from Dan Skidmore. He replaced a light and some components inside the radio, and rebuilt the speaker. So we are ready to install it and listen to those AM airwaves. I will not put it back in until I get the wiring issue completed, which should be in a few days. I have to trace a couple of wires and lights to see where they go in the cluster and then I can declare victory.

[ErnieR]

Hi John,

Looks like you dodged a bullet with that broken fitting. When I replaced my hose some 10+ years ago I angled the fitting and the new copper tube I installed so the hose wouldn't be stressed at the ends. It seems that cracking and wear occur mostly at the spot where brass meets rubber.

Just an idea...

[Guest stude8]

Now that Ernie has brought up the un-stressing alignment of the oil gauge hose fittings I wanted to comment on when the radio interference shield is reinstalled over the distributor and spark coil parts watch the lower edge of the stainless shroud so it doesn't rub against the rubber hose. I recall seeing some that had been half sawed through by the shroud edge, kind of like a dull butter knife but can ruin a good hose over time from constant vibration. Stude8

[unimogjohn]

Stude8/John and Ernie, thanks. The new line is about an inch longer than the original, so it has a better radius for bending/flexing so I do do not think that there will be little, if any, strain on the ends. And I will check that the shield is no where near the rubber oil pressure line when I reinstall it today. Suppose to rain hard here today, starting mid morning, so do not know how much I will get done. Will keep you all posted.

[unimogjohn]

It is Wednesday, December 2nd. Cold, around 30 degrees, and rain is forecast. Ran into the pasture this morning and drove the Unimog out before the ground became too muddy.

So before the rains, I decided that I would put everything back from my little week long oil pressure line repair/replacement. So in about 30 minutes I had everything back on. Started the car, she roars to life instantly, and watch the oil pressure climb to 75 lbs, then I run over to the new oil line and check for leaks. Nothing, everything is good. Sure wish I had that rebuilt alternator so I could take her for a run at least around the driveway. Oh well, maybe next week. So turned her off as she has no water pump due to the alternator being out.

I found the other SS spark plug wire cover and put it on. Did not connect the little nut way below the power brake vacuum unit, got to have a very small hand to get down there for sure, or you have to take off the bracket and remove the entire assembly. Going to leave it for another day.

I also found the SS box that goes over the distributer/coil. Now I can see what can cut the oil pressure line. Put it on just as a test fit. I want to change the dual points some nice day soon, so it did not make sense to put it on right now.

Oh, great..... freezing rain. I am done for the day. Just too cold and wet now to do much more. Guess it is about time to get her into the Avanti garage. May do that tomorrow. Or, may move the 1928 Buick to the Avanti garage and and move the Avanti into the real garage. Decisions, decisions.

[unimogjohn]

It is Thursday, December 3rd. Nice day here today, about 64 degrees, but snow is expected on Saturday. Suppose to have winds of 35 to 40 mph tomorrow during the transition period, so went into the Avanti garage and made sure all the tie downs were solid and tight. This will be a little test for the garage.

Then had to dig out a 1922 Buick engine/transmission out of the hay barn. I sold it and pickup is Sunday. This little four banger is heavy, the Kubota tractor is straining to lift it.

I called Jon Meyers re the supercharger. Jon said that he has not gotten to it since the holidays. It is on the bench; all painted, cleaned, with new parts on the shelf. He just has to do it, but has not had the time. He said that he might get a few hours on the weekend to work on it, but made no promises. So I said that I understood, and that I could wait a bit longer. Actually, I have no choice. Looks like the alternator and supercharger will be done about the same time, the end of next week. Just in time for Christmas.

If the weather holds tomorrow I plan to complete the inside wiring work and put back in the seat.

[jbbuick22]

John,

Next time you need tools like the tap ck McMaster-Carr.com, you can order online

and receive the order the next day. I'm not ready for the snow this weekend.

JB

Buick 22-6-55 Sport Touring

[old car fan]

John,keep up the post,Great to read

[unimogjohn]

A couple of weeks ago I posted that our local restoration guru was doing a frame-off restoration of his 1964 Avanti R2. Greg sent me a couple of pictures this morning so I thought I would share them. This is going to be his daily driver, I could only wish.

[Guest Ron Williamson]

Interesting project which I hope to follow. Keep the news coming.

[unimogjohn]

It is Friday, December 4th. Snow still expected tomorrow, now they are saying 2 to 4 inches, starting around midnight tonight. It does "taste" like snow is coming.

Better get to it. So spent the morning finishing ripping out all the burned wiring, which had been bypassed, but still in the harness. In the end, two hot wires (ignition and alternator) were fried, and one ground wire. I used tie-wraps on the wiring bundle inside the car, but did use wraps and black tape in the engine compartment just to make sure everything looked the same as the other wiring. I am satisfied that the electrical system is safe, and will not not burn up the car.

I still have a wiring issue with the horn and the turn signal system working against each other, but I believe that problem is in the steering wheel. I will tackle that problem as time permits. I do have rear turn signals if I manually use the stock as an off and on switch. I guess that half a system is better than none. I also put back in all the light bulbs in the dash, so now most of the instruments have lights. There is just hardly any room to work back behind the dash.

Wow, just listen to that music! The radio and new speaker are now back in the car, thank you Dan Skidmore. It took about an hour to get it back in, and I had to enlist Alice to help hold the speaker in place while I did a little "by feel" work to attached the speaker nuts to the dash. Could not have done it alone, you need at least three hands to install everything. Oh, and the radio, it does sound great, and I actually get a few stations. Ahhhh, the 60s, remember them well. But, glad my time working under the dash are done for now, my hands are all skinned up from trying to make them fit into tiny places.

Took a few minutes to vacuum the carpet and then put back in the driver's seat. Oh, naturally it looks like the seat mounting system as been welded back together.

Done for today. I have actually run out of parts to put on the car. It still needs another heavy cleaning inside to get rid of the moldy smell, but the old girl is starting to look pretty good to these old eyes.

Next week hope to have the supercharger and alternator back. May even tackle repairing the hood hinge pocket. So with any luck we may have a running car that we can take on the road by the end of the week.

It has been two months since we have started this madness. We have had a lot of fun and spent a few bucks too. Great to see the Avanti starting to rise from the dead. Thanks to everyone for their kind words, suggestions, and encouragement.

[keiser31]

And a big THANK YOU for sharing your progress and the great photos. It looks to me like the seat bracket broke off and "they" turned it over and re-welded it on (hence the angled front edge on the bracket)?

[trimacar]

Actually, not to be nitpicking, John, but Greg is doing a "frame on" restoration of his Avanti. It's going to be a super nice driver! Have enjoyed following your adventures on this thread!

[unimogjohn]

David, you are right. It does look really nice, much too nice for a daily driver. Maybe I should trade him? You better move a car down the hill you live on. You could be in the eye of the storm.

[unimogjohn]

It is Monday, December 7th. Not much progress on the Avanti. It started snowing early Saturday and continued all day. Our first snow of the season. We got a total of about 4 inches. It has been cold too, 20 degrees at night, and maybe 36 to 40 degrees during the day. We spent Sunday winterizing the farm, and putting in heating elements in all the animal water buckets to include the duck's little pond.

But today we got a call that the alternator was ready so we decided to take a couple of hours and headed out. When we arrived Bill showed us the stator, some of the copper wiring had fused together and others had burned through. So we now have a new stator, brushes and bearings; good as new as they say. The cost was $123. Bill also said that I should bring the regulator next time I am in the area. He said that he could check it out and repair as needed. So I think that next week I will pull it and take it out to him for inspection and testing. This would be the final piece of the electrics to check out and repair/replace if required.

We also got in a NOS transmission dipstick to replace the one that had broken at its neck/hood/cap. So it will go on tomorrow too along with the alternator. Another storm is coming, freezing rain, sleet, and then rain tomorrow. So I hope it holds off long enough for me to put the alternator in. I think I need about 30 minutes. I do have the shroud for the radiator/fan, but will hold off putting that back in until the supercharger comes in, no word on that yet today.

Here are a couple of pictures.

[ErnieR]

May I recommend an electronic regulator from Dave Thiebault. It looks like a restored original but works much better. The charge is more consistent with less fluctuation while running lights and accessories. I've had mine in for years.

[unimogjohn]

It is Monday PM, December 7th. At what cost?

I have received several emails on how much this "refresh" has cost so far. Since so many have asked I am going to assume that there is a general interest. So this is it. Remember, this was/is going to be a refresh and not a restoration. We wanted a reliable driver that still had its original patina. And believe me, it has a lot of patina even now.

Car Purchase: $ 8500

Pick up car cost: 500

Parts, re-builds, etc: 5074

Total: $14074

Now parts, etc includes some big ticket items, and the supercharger is still estimated. They are:

Jon Myers supercharger rebuild: $700

Jim Turner disc brake kit: $704

Universal radial tire and installation: $630

Dave T carb rebuild: $300

SS Exhaust (partial): $260

and many over a $100 cost such as the alternator rebuild, radio rebuild, insurance, sales/registration fees, etc.

If there is interest I will be happy to share the spreadsheet I have been keeping of all items.

I was prepared and budgeted for this refresh, but I am over that by about $1500. The brake and supercharger costs were really not anticipated at the time of purchase. And I did not realize that so many things were just worn out or rotten. For example, the entire brake system was beyond saving except for a few pieces for the rear brakes; and every piece of rubber including every hose needed replacement.

I have also budgeted some monies for 2010/11 to finish the car to driver status. Body work and re-paint $4,000; refresh interior $2,500. These cost are in line with keeping the total car costs to about $20K. Am I upside down, sure, but I did not go into this with the idea of recouping all costs. I am having a great time and that is worth lots.

That is my cost to date report. I do not foresee any major costs right now to get her back on the road. However, with that said I have no idea as to the overall mechanical condition of the engine, transmission or rear axle. Only a few hundred miles on the road will tell me if I have to do anything there in the near term. I do recognize that if any of the major mechanicals are bad, I am looking at large dollars to rebuild/repair.

Edited December 8, 2009 by unimogjohn (see edit history)

[unimogjohn]

It is Tuesday, December 8th. Ran into town this morning to get more gas for the generators. We expect an ice storm tonight, and if it comes, we are sure to lose power. Just one of those things about living outside of the big city and in the woods.

I was told that the middle color of the outside of the alternator is incorrect. It should be silver rather than oxide red. So since it is 20 degrees outside I decided that this would be an easy fix from the kitchen table. Also the little plastic tab for the field wire is still loose, the tech could not find one that would fit. So rather than have it pull out at some inopportune time I took a little JB Weld and made a small bead around the outside of the tab and the frame. That should hold it fine.

I also ran outside, threw off the over, charged up the battery, and then put in the new transmission dip stick. Done for the day.

Hopefully tomorrow will be a bit nicer, and I will be able to get out and put the alternator on. Sorry for the short report, I had great intentions.

[Guest stude8]

Years ago when I had a Studebaker pickup I saw some 8E models with an alternator instead of generator (Special orders per parts book) that looked exactly like the Avanti alternator except instead of the male spade lug field terminal they had a male 8-32 stud that the external field wire attached to using a female ring lug and hex nut.

If the spade lug ever fails you could find counter sunk insulator spacers to assemble a binding post replacement connection.

I did look up the 0609-52 1558002 brush set in alternator diagram in the 8E truck parts catalog and they do illustrate the spade lug like Avanti had so I wonder if the binding post was a field repair measure?

Stude8

[unimogjohn]

It is Wednesday, December 9th. "We have power Captain", as said often by Scotty on the old StarTrek TV series.

The big ice storm gave us a glancing blow last night, lots of rain and some sleet, but that is about it. So as soon as it got above freezing I headed out to put in the Alternator.

All went great, charging just fine. Max about 30 amps at start up, and then going immediately to about 5 amps or so.

But not is all happiness. I started the car, attempted to put it in gear, and it died. Did this several times, until one time I got her not to stall the engine, and it raced through the front lawn, digging out like we were on a drag strip.

So I have a couple of problems that I think are carb related. Remember that I earlier had the carb rebuilt, drained the fuel, it was still dirty so drained it again and flushed out all the lines. But I did start it after I drained it the first time, and there was a lot of gunk in the lines. I think some of this gunk got past the fuel filter and now my carb is plugged.

But what do you think?

These are the two issues.

First, if I turn off or stall the engine when warm, it will not restart unless I physically put the high idle toggle back into the cold position. The engine will not start if it is at operating temp. It starts immediately when it is in the cold position.

Second, the engine immediately stalls when I put it in gear (remember it is an automatic). If I manage to keep it running in gear it will not idle down or it will stall and quit. So it is like give it high rpms, drop the lever into drive, and hope she moves forward and keeps running.

The fuel pump seems to be OK, I can see it flowing in the plastic fuel filter. And I just put in another filter, and the problems still exist.

I do not think that it is the transmission at this point, it seems to drop into gear just fine, the fluid is nice and red, and where it should be on the dipstick.

If anyone has any experience with these condition pls. let me know what you think. You can email me at unimogjohn@aol.com if you wish.

This is my confession for the day.

Edited December 9, 2009 by unimogjohn (see edit history)

[ErnieR]

The dirty fuel will cause some problems.

First suggestion would be to advance timing. Since you're not out driving around bring it up to assist idle but not so far that the engine misses.

With the car idling at it's lowest possible point with choke open all the way use your hand or the choke itself to restrict air flow and create a rich condition. If idle increase and smooths out you could have a vacuum leak or the idle passages have clogged from the contaminated fuel.

I'm experiencing similar issues with my 62 Meteor. I believe the stuff that gets past the filter is in suspension but very fine. Then when the car sits it coagulates and clogs the tiny idle passages. My Meteor was running great after a carb cleaning and tank drain but after sitting for a few weeks the old stalling in gear problems resurfaced.

I mention timing because if the static setting was made at an idle speed that was high enough to kick in centrifugal advance you will get a stall in gear when the idle drops enough to lower or eliminate centrifugal advance and lower idle speed and retard timing at the same time resulting in a stall.

ErnieR

Edited December 9, 2009 by ErnieR
spelling (see edit history)

[Guest Backyardmechanic]

I agree with the vacumme check to see if you haven't disconnect a vacumme hose to the transmation from the carb.

Vern

[Guest stude8]

It has been a long time since I worked on an Avanti Power Shift transmission but I can suggest some things to look at for correct adjustment.

Avanti Power Shift is not vacuum controlled. It uses a mechanical rod linkage from carburetor to the throttle valve lever on trans case. This controls internal hydraulic control pressure for specific conditions (low speed start out or wide open throttle drag race).

The mechanical adjustment is clearly described in Avanti Workshop Manual under "Power Shift Transmission" chapter Page 8. You will need to connect an oil pressure gauge to a 1/8" pipe plug port on side of trans case described under Carburetor-to-throttle valve linkage adjustment.

Since you have replaced the carburetor recently and Lord knows who all has tampered with the linkage before that, I would place high suspicion that the linkage is not at factory setting presently. The motion of the linkage must be synchronized with carburetor throttle plate position to obtain correct oil pressure setting.

If trans hydraulic pressure is incorrect the engine is likely to stall at idle when shifted into gear. Since the engine seems to run well in neutral at idle, yes a major carburetion vacuum leak can be a liabilty when going to open throttle condition but it would have to be a major leak like in the brake booster canister *the diaphragms do develop tears and leak vacuum.

Check the seam around the canister where the tapered front body "Twist Locks" to the cylindrical main body. That is a flat rubber seal that deteriorates with age. I would remove the booster if it shows leakage *listen for suction hissing. Turn canister with front end up , clean grease and dirt from the seal trough then apply a liberal dose of RTV to seal the gaps. A manifold vacuum gauge reading with an accurate gauge before and after any work will confirm if you have aided the correction of any leakage.

OOPS! One more thing to check just popped up in mind, there is a vacuum check valve where the manifold vacuum hose to brake booster connects to the booster, if it is defective that can impose a big vacuum drain on the manifold, it keeps the vacuum at high levels in the canister when stepping on the gas that drops vacuum in manifold suddenly. *A quick test is a small vice grip pinching the hose to cutoff vacuum to the booster, of course you won't have much brake power so keep an open road ahead of the car.

There is always a chance the torque converter is at fault, internal pressure leakage, or the wrong one (incorrect stall speed RPM) replaced in the past? American motors postal vehicles are the only others I know of that used the similar internal construction.

I hope you do have the shop manual to refer to by now, if not reply and I can scan the chapter pages you will want to read.

Stude8

Edited December 10, 2009 by stude8 (see edit history)

[unimogjohn]

Stude8,

yes I do have the manual and am looking at it now. Will do as you suggest. I will make sure that I still have the linkage, and it is hooked up correctly. The carb on the car was not correct when I got it, and the linkage was adjusted and move around to make it work. I suppose putting it back to the supercharged carb caused some issues. I will take a look tomorrow. Suppose to go into the teens tonight, so it just depends how fast it warm up tomorrow. At least I have something to check. (PS, thanks, I did not even know about this mechanical connection.)

I did start and run the car today for about 30 minutes, I did check for vacuum leaks and found none. All the rubber lines are brand new and tight. I can see fuel being sucked out of the main venturis. I did use some carb cleaner on some of the parts and that seemed to help a bit. I think I will take the manual and read up on the carb and its adjustments to see what I can learn. Will report when I have some more information to share.

Comment Added: Stude8 and Ernie, after reading the manual I realize that the throttle/transmission linkage is more than likely set up totally wrong. Who knew...... Anyway will do some investigation in making sure all my piece parts are there, and they are set to spec. Looks like there are several adjustments to make on the transmission and may require some special tools and gauges, will have to see what I can figure out. Would it be nice if this throttle/transmission adjustment is the cause of my problems? Ernie, will set the throttle at 650 rpm, it is running at about 1100 now. And I should have said that I can see the gas coming out when I goosed the engine, but I could also see a trickle at my high idle.

Edited December 11, 2009 by unimogjohn
Added comments based on suggestions of Ernie and Stude8. (see edit history)

[ErnieR]

If you can see fuel from the main venturis your idle setting is too high. At proper idle the fuel is drawn from two small slits below the throttle blades. That idle circuit is easily clogged by bad fuel, as I have come to find out with my Mercury.

Dress warm!

[Guest stude8]

I confess to not reading the idle speed details close enough before my last response, if like ErnieR comments the idle speed is 1100RPM then the stalling may simply be flooding in the manifold at idle from excess fuel coming from the main or accelorator circuits.

This will soon cause another condition we called "Fuel Fouling" of spark plugs where the center electrode insulator develops a conductive residue that shorts the spark to ground before it can jump the gap of the plug. A hot enough range plug may help prevent this but not forever. Usually the plugs must be thrown away, even sand blasting the tips doesn't clear the condition.

In the late 1960's I ran a modified R2 Avanti 4 speed with the Paxton inner race clutch shimmed to result in a higher PSI boost output (6PSI @ 4000RPM). It shortened the blower ball drive races lifespan but gave improved performance on the street.

Paxton sold the inner race repair kits for $19.95 then so it was cheap thrills.

This also led to playing with differant heat ranges of plugs and one range colder would foul plugs in 50 miles of driving. The best time with that car (R2, 4 speed, 3.73 axle, Firestone H-70 wide ovals on Thunderbird 6"width rims) was 15.2 sec @ 105mph quarter mile (US30 Track in Gary, IN). Not great by today's standards but good enough to pull a dead heat with a 396 Chevelle then.

Stude8

[unimogjohn]

It is Friday, December 11th. 10 degrees here this morning, 20 degrees by 10 AM, and now it is now 28 at 11:30 AM; time to head out.

First thing I decided to check out the throttle/transmission linkage setting. No wonder the engine/transmission would not work correctly. It is way, I mean way, out of adjustment. And I do have the linkage hooked up incorrectly. According to the workshop manual the little ball joint should be pointing down versus up.

Here are a couple of pictures. First, as it exists; second, with the correct size drill for spacing purposes; and third, the manual, which shows the correct spacing/adjustment between the two arms. You can see that I am at least three times out of adjustment.

Have animals to take care of this afternoon, but will try to get back to it this PM.

Wonder what it will be like after adjustment? One can only hope.

[unimogjohn]

Still Friday, only PM, and it got up to 30 degrees, yahoo!

Ok, changed the little ball joint to go on the underside of the bar, so good so far. Made the adjustment with the control rod and the gap closed up. Actually, there is a screw on the underside that keeps the adjustment, or allows it to close a bit more. When the plates came together it was at the proper adjustment. I then adjusted the idle and the vacuum control for the throttle. Engine idled down to 700 nicely. See pics for new set up.

So, put it in reverse, died; increase idle to 1000, put it in reverse, died. Oh well, we will live to fight another day. Sun is going down, it is windy and cold, snow tomorrow.

Goal for this weekend, move the 1928 Buick to the Avanti garage, and the Avanti to the real garage. At least then I will not be working in Antarctica.

Just got an email from Dave, the carb rebuilder, he suggested that I turn the choke adjustment clockwise two notches to see if that fixes the re-starting issue. So will do that tomorrow.

Edited December 11, 2009 by unimogjohn
Just received an adjustment for the carb from Dave T. (see edit history)

[Guest stude8]

I think it is time to roll that car into the Winter shop before your positive attitude takes a dip. I am wondering if it is so cold that the choke is trying to richen up the mix whether it needs to or not.

Just a thought about whether the distributor vacuum connection is correct and functioning? Have you sucked on the vacuum advance module inlet and observed that the breaker plate is definitely moving? Is the vacuum source from the manifold so that the module sees maximum vacuum when throttle plates open and close?

Stude8

[unimogjohn]

Stude8, the vacuum check should be easy, I will check over the weekend and report. I have not checked the vacuum distributer workings. I know the weights work, but I did have the vacuum disconnected and plugged when I checked it. Thanks for the suggestion.

[unimogjohn]

It is Saturday, December 12th. Ventured out to make the Dave T. adjustment on the choke, moved it two marks. It did restart fine a couple of times, but then when back to its old ways.

So decided to check the vacuum advance module on the distributor. I used my little Mity Vac pump to check it. Nothing moved and built no pressure on the pump, you can just hear the air moving in and out inside the module. Just as a double check decided just to suck back and forth via mouth just to be sure. Yup, nothing, so Sude8 found the problem with the advance. Would that effect my stalling as soon as I put it into gear?

Also, I looked at the main jets at idle, and yes, they are not dribbling gas into the venturi. So it looks like the idle and main jets are working correctly. Maybe then I do not have a dirty carb issue.

Well, what is next? I know that the Prestolite distributor is not that great and the mechanical weights are subject to binding. So I think that I will call Dave Thibeault and see what he wants for a rebuild. I have never replaced a distributor before so will check the workshop manual before pulling it. At least I do know enough to make some marks and take a picture so I know the relative position it should go back in. However, that does not mean that I will reinstall it successfully the first time considering my track record of late.

Suppose to be another storm tonight and tomorrow, so heading out this PM to get rounds of hay again. We go through about 26 rounds per year, and 250 small 60lbs bales just in case you were wondering. I do have to wait now until the ground is frozen to get the Unimog and tractor into the pastures, otherwise they are just too muddy and I just do more damage to the ground.

[Guest stude8]

My bet is the advance module diaphragm is ruptured and causing enough leakage to affect the going in gear stall. You definitely need the modulator to control timing conditions like idle load and acceloration. Stude8

[unimogjohn]

Stude8, talked to Dave T. and he agrees with you. I am going to pull the distributor on Monday and send it to him for a rebuild. Just one less thing to worry about. And not much money in the grand scheme of things, $150 plus shipping both ways, so call it about $175.

[ErnieR]

I agree you need the vacuum advance working in day to day driving for efficiency but it will not have any effect on your stall because the port the vacuum comes from is not exposed to vacuum at idle. On a stock carb there is no port that you can connect it to that has vacuum at a properly set idle speed.

I do think that you should put a timing light on the car and check static timing at 700 rpm. You have nothing to lose by advancing it a little and then re-adjusting idle just to see if timing is your stalling problem And at the same time check the action of the centrifugal advance. R2 timing is set at 24 degrees advanced at 1600 RPM but a baseline of 6-8 degrees at idle is a good place to start, then check the advance at 1600 rpm.

If the centrifugal advance is working meaning it advances as the rpm increases and retards back to static at idle then there's nothing wrong with the weights and springs. You can check to see if the breaker plate is able to move manually. A little WD-40 is usually all that's needed to free up a sticking breaker plate. The vacuum advance can itself is a simple replacement and doesn't require a rebuild and if your dwell reading is fairly steady you don't have enough shaft wear to warrant a rebuild either.

If timing doesn't cure the problem there's an outside chance that there might be something wrong with the torque converter. I'll admit I've never run into it ( timing issues were the culprit for me frequently ) but if the vanes are not not moving freely and independent of each other the car will act like the clutch is not depressed as you're coming to a stop.

Please make me feel good check the dwell and advance the timing as an experiment before you send the distributor out.

[unimogjohn]

Ernie, this is what I wrote on Nov. 4th "Decided to check the timing. After reading the manual it says that the timing should be 4 degrees at 750 rpm and 24 at 1600 for the supercharged engine. Mine is currently set at 8 degrees at 750 rpm, and does advance to 24 degrees at 1600 rpm."

You need tell me what you want me to check again.

Also, when I drove the car off the trailer in early Nov. I did not have this stalling problem, it seems to have happened when I put the throttle mechanicals back to the factory position, or perhaps junk got into the carb. Just do not know. I do remember being able to put it in D or R for a few seconds to get it to move (remember this was without brakes at the time) so the transmission was working correctly; the engine was not stalling out.

[ErnieR]

Well, I missed the post on the timing settings. Vacuum advance, however, is definitely not the issue. I've forgotten to plug mine back in lots of times after doing a timing check and never experienced a stall because of it.

A gunked up carb would cause a stall or at least an erratic idle whether you were in gear or not. I tend to think that if you can get the car to idle at 750 you don't have a carb or vacuum issue.

The reason I keep harping on timing is if you have an issue where centrifugal timing is coming on at low idle, let's say because a spring is weak or broken, then all your setting are done with some centrfugal advance coming in. Now you drop the car into gear and the idle drops eliminating centrifugal advance, retarding the timing and causing a stall.

So, even though the settings are right according to the timing light, as an experiment just crank the timing up so you pick up a few hundred rpm and put it in gear. If it stalls all you have to do is reset the timing, if it doesn't you've narrowed down the problem to a distributor issue.

If you're not applying the brakes when you put it in gear and it moves it doesn't eliminate the torque converter as a cause. I'll admit the converter is a longshot and a problem I don't wish on you but normal action at idle would be two vanes spinning independently of each other becasue the engine is operating below the stall speed ( Avanti about 2200 rpm ). However, if super thick fluid in cold weather, let's say, has lowered that stall speed the car could stall when the car is in gear and the brakes are applied at a much lower RPM. If you're not on the brakes the car will just go whether the converter's working right or not.

BTW, my car had two timing marks scribed into the balancer! Then I ordered a new one and the mark on that one didin't match the other two! My engine is not to stock specs any longer but while I limit total advance to about 30 I have my distributor curved so I can run 16 static. Both seat of the pants and a dozen or so runs at Island have verified that's where it likes to be. So ultimately, your optimum timing may be different than what the book calls for.

Edited December 13, 2009 by ErnieR (see edit history)