PLASTIC BITS in my OIL PAN

[Guest janusjwilde]

I took the car to get the power booster changed, valve cover gaskets put on, Rear Transmission seal put on, Tranny mount put on and a motor mount swapped out. $400 bucks!

When I went to pick up the car, the mechanic told me that there were "pieces of plastic in the oil pan stuck on the filter screen." I have a Buick 340 motor. What causes this? Am I in for another world of pain? If so, I am selling this car. Living in NYC with a vintage car = you get ripped off by mechanics.

[Larry Schramm]

Could be timing chain guide/tensioner

[Guest boettger]

GM used timing gears with a plastic/nylon coating on them to keep them quiet. I believe the plastic bits found in your oil pan arebits of timing gear. Time new timing chain and gears!

[joe_padavano]

I took the car to get the power booster changed, valve cover gaskets put on, Rear Transmission seal put on, Tranny mount put on and a motor mount swapped out. $400 bucks!

When I went to pick up the car, the mechanic told me that there were "pieces of plastic in the oil pan stuck on the filter screen." I have a Buick 340 motor. What causes this? Am I in for another world of pain? If so, I am selling this car. Living in NYC with a vintage car = you get ripped off by mechanics.

I assume you are talking about plastic pieces in the TRANSMISSION oil pan, since you didn't mention anything about getting the engine oil changed. If so, these are probably pieces of plastic thrust washers used in the trans. Not a good sign.

[Guest janusjwilde]

I assume you are talking about plastic pieces in the TRANSMISSION oil pan, since you didn't mention anything about getting the engine oil changed. If so, these are probably pieces of plastic thrust washers used in the trans. Not a good sign.

no, it was the engine oil pan I am talking about

[impala]

So what did the new booster do for the brakes?

impala

[Guest janusjwilde]

So what did the new booster do for the brakes?

impala

I am happy to report the brakes are now better.

[Guest kaycee]

I agree with Steve on the plastic bits in your engine oil pan. The pieces are probably off the camshaft sprocket ( either the one in your engine now or, if the chain and gears were replaced in the past and the pan and oil galleries were'nt thorougly cleaned the pieces could be from then ). If the engine is running Ok now, I'd still pull the front cover off and inspect and if needed, replace both gears and the chain and thorougly clean out the pan and oil galleries before it jumps time and you have bigger problems. Glad your brakes are working now at least.

The plastic or nylon coated cam gears commonly stripped in those years especially in high mileage engines, and once a couple of teeth break off, it's just a matter of time before it jumps time. In some engines, it results in bent valves, bent pushrods, broken rocker arms,etc. Good luck!

kaycee

[Guest chuck45]

And did he give you a reason to have the engine oil pan down ? I saw nothing that he was to do that requires removal of the oil pan. Trying to make some more money from you prob. Think I'd take it very lightly.

[Guest janusjwilde]

And did he give you a reason to have the engine oil pan down ? I saw nothing that he was to do that requires removal of the oil pan. Trying to make some more money from you prob. Think I'd take it very lightly.

the oil pan gasket was leaking so i asked him to replace it.

[Restorer32]

For what you had done $400 was actually pretty reasonable. Going immediately to "the mechanic ripped me off" doesn't seem warranted in this case. I would almost bet that if this is a modern car mechanic he will be reluctant to work on your old car in the future. What is his hourly rate in NYC? How long do you think the work should have taken? Have you done enough wrench turning on your own cars to have an idea how long doing repairs to an older vehicle takes? Did you thank him for pointing out a potentially expensive problem down the road?

[JohnD1956]

In my experience with a multitude of Buick engines from 1965 through 1993, is that between 80-120K the timing chain and gears will need to be replaced. I have had over a dozen of these cars and it happened to every single one of them. The program is it will start one morning and then as soon as it comes off of fast idle it will die, and not restart.

In every case I found changing the gears and chain fixed the problem but I never had a gear that actually lost the nylon. Yet the nylon will break off and fall into the pan and block the oil pickup.

I just recently found your posts here so I don't know how long you have had your car and how much you have driven it. If you have had it running for 6 months or more, and if it is over 120K, then I suspect the gears and chain have already been replaced. Unfortunately I know of no way to actually determine this unless you pull the timing chain cover to check.

One thing you can do however is check the slack in the chain. You do this by removing the distributor cap and using a breaker bar and socket, rotate the engine in the direction it would normally turn. As soon as you see the rotor move, stop and reverse direction till the rotor moves again. You may have to do this several times. You don't need to go any further than the first movement of the rotor. If the rotor moves immediately as you reverse direction, then there is no slack in the chain and chances are you already have new gears and chain. If, however, you get more than an inch or two movement of the end of the breaker bar handle, then you probably need a new chain and gear set installed. Note: not all breaker bars are the same. A two foot breaker bar will have more movement than an 18inch breaker bar.

I would suggest you also consider posting your inquiries on the Buick Club portion of this site. Nothing wrong with this section but you may find more Buick experience lurking over there.

[Guest janusjwilde]

For what you had done $400 was actually pretty reasonable. Going immediately to "the mechanic ripped me off" doesn't seem warranted in this case. I would almost bet that if this is a modern car mechanic he will be reluctant to work on your old car in the future. What is his hourly rate in NYC? How long do you think the work should have taken? Have you done enough wrench turning on your own cars to have an idea how long doing repairs to an older vehicle takes? Did you thank him for pointing out a potentially expensive problem down the road?

I am not angry that he charged me $400 for the most recent work, I am angry that PRIOR to doing all that work, he took my car for a spin, said the rear shoes needed to be changed (they didnt) and said changing them would solve my brake issue. He then proceeded to charge me a TON of money and later I found out the real problem was the brake booster.

I actually had to take the car BACK to him today because he didnt put the driveshaft back together correctly which resulted in a TERRIBLE noise: the driveshaft rubbing against the frame. Its things like that which bother me; he drove the car before he gave it back to me and KNEW it was making a loud noise.

Edited August 6, 2009 by janusjwilde (see edit history)

[Guest janusjwilde]

In my experience with a multitude of Buick engines from 1965 through 1993, is that between 80-120K the timing chain and gears will need to be replaced. I have had over a dozen of these cars and it happened to every single one of them. The program is it will start one morning and then as soon as it comes off of fast idle it will die, and not restart.

In every case I found changing the gears and chain fixed the problem but I never had a gear that actually lost the nylon. Yet the nylon will break off and fall into the pan and block the oil pickup.

I just recently found your posts here so I don't know how long you have had your car and how much you have driven it. If you have had it running for 6 months or more, and if it is over 120K, then I suspect the gears and chain have already been replaced. Unfortunately I know of no way to actually determine this unless you pull the timing chain cover to check.

One thing you can do however is check the slack in the chain. You do this by removing the distributor cap and using a breaker bar and socket, rotate the engine in the direction it would normally turn. As soon as you see the rotor move, stop and reverse direction till the rotor moves again. You may have to do this several times. You don't need to go any further than the first movement of the rotor. If the rotor moves immediately as you reverse direction, then there is no slack in the chain and chances are you already have new gears and chain. If, however, you get more than an inch or two movement of the end of the breaker bar handle, then you probably need a new chain and gear set installed. Note: not all breaker bars are the same. A two foot breaker bar will have more movement than an 18inch breaker bar.

I would suggest you also consider posting your inquiries on the Buick Club portion of this site. Nothing wrong with this section but you may find more Buick experience lurking over there.

my mechanic checked the compression and it was normal. If timing chain was "going," would compression be low?

Edited August 6, 2009 by janusjwilde (see edit history)

[Guest janusjwilde]

The attached image shows what the cam gear on my '84 Toronado (Olds 307 V8) looked like after about 150,000 miles (that's about all the nylon that was left). I had been experiencing a loss of power. My mechanic used the JohnD1956 mentioned technique & determined the timing chain was stretched. Along with the wear on the cam gear, this was causing retarded valve & ignition timing. From the image, you can clearly see how the chain had begun to dig into the soft naked aluminum teeth!

Fortunately, it had not yet jumped before we replaced it with a Crane Cams double roller timing gear set. What a difference that made! We never dropped the oil pan so I have no idea if all that nylon is sitting in the bottom of the pan (or stuck to the oil pump pickup screen). However, 35,000 miles & 6 years later, all appears to be OK. When $$ allows, I will drop the pan to correct a small pan gasket & rear main seal leak. Then I can see if the nylon bits are still there.

My mechanic commented that the only reason the original timing set lasted so long is because I was strict about changing the oil & filter (every 3 months or 3000 miles).

Paul

i dont drive the car that much so I dont change the oil that often. Now, I wish I had! I wonder how long I have before it goes bad. I have a timing gear and chain on order, but I dont have the money to have it installed.

[JohnD1956]

While slack in a timing chain will impact valve timing, I do not think that would be the cause of low compression. If the chain had slacked that far I don't think the car would even start.

Was the compression low in all cylinders, or just one or two?

[Guest janusjwilde]

While slack in a timing chain will impact valve timing, I do not think that would be the cause of low compression. If the chain had slacked that far I don't think the car would even start.

Was the compression low in all cylinders, or just one or two?

No you misunderstood. The compression was NORMAL in the engine. I asked about low compression because I thought that normal compression might mean the timing chain is OK.

I will put some marvel mystery oil in the engine oil and fuel system until the new gears come. How much should I pay to have the timing chain changed?

[impala]

How much should I pay to have the timing chain changed?

My flat rate software only goes back to 1968 but as an example (and yours should be similar) for a 68 Wildcat the labor for the chain and gears should be about 6 hours. In my area labor is about $60-$75 per hour and dealers higher.

impala