Guest EVFD Chief Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 I am just starting in on restoration of a 1936 REO / Stutz Fire Truck and just wanting to see who else is out there or if anyone has information on the 1936 era the "New Stutz Fire Apparatus Company" original sn# /buyer, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msmazcol Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Congratulations on undertaking a fire engine restoration. They are very rewarding when done but a bear to get just so. Un-like cars that are fairly straight forward in restoration a fire engine involves many different components that don't even exist on cars. This is why class 23 is fire equipment only. We completed a restoration on our 58 Willys/Howe a few years back. While not near as large as your Stutz it was still a challenge. Our engine is fully functional and that is how fire engine restorations should be done. Are you a member of SPAAMFAA? It is a great source of fire engine type people. They have annual conventions and musters which are a great time. In answer to your question about Stutz. I own a book called Stutz Fire Engine Company by Rodger J. Birchfield. It is a great asset in Stutz knowledge. An internet search should bring you to a source of it.Best of luck on your project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 I hear you can drive a fire engine on the road (legally) with no license plates. Is this true everywhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Rusty, No, that is not true everywhere (at least it is not true in North Carolina). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 EVFD Chief, Welcome to the AACA Discussion Forum. I have admired antique fire trucks since my volunteer firefighter days many years ago. Unfortunately, I don't know much about restoring them. You will find lots of other folks here with a lot of knowledge. Some more of them with Fire Apparatus experience will certainly chime in here soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Orphanauto Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 wow, that's a cool Willy's Howe. Hey Chief, We would love to see a few pictures of your REO / Stutz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msmazcol Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Thanks for the compliment on the Willys. I would love to see the Stutz as well.I stood in a parking lot at a muster one eve lusting over one for sale. Then my Wife smacked me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Robin Coleman Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Being a retired vol. firefighter I have a love for all apparatus. I even had a business repairing them. Your engine most likely has a Waterous pump. Waterous is in St. Paul and if you need parts they will still have the blue prints to make them, which they will do. All they need is the serial number off the pump itself. They can also tell you the history of the pump, where it first went, etc. We located, repurchased and restored Marion's first pumper, a 1940 Mack. It originally went to the Army Air Corp and was bought by the city after the end of WWII. It will still pump at rated capacity and is listed as an active pumper by the fire dept. The Insurance Standards Org. still gives an FD credit for any engine that will pass a cert. test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ex98thdrill Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Chief, my father and I are owners of two fire trucks, one is a 1942 Ford / American LaFrance (ex-Canandaigua Fire Dept.) and a 1949 American LaFrance 700 series ladder truck (also an ex-Canandaigua Fire Dept. truck). The pumper is an AACA Senior winner, and my dad and I did a full frame off restoration.The first question I have for you is this.....Is the firefighting portion of your truck homemade, a Reo / Stutz, or other manufacturer (American LaFrance, Ward LaFrance, Seagrave, Cayassler, Howe, Pirsch, etc.)???In the case of our '42 Ford pumper, the back half is American LaFrance. So basically once you get behind the driver's seat there are no two fire trucks the same unless the fire truck body came from the same manufacturer. We found other '42 Ford fire trucks out there, and quickly found out that none of the fire truck builders did things the same. The good part is if the firefighting portion of that truck was built by a company like American LaFrance, you might find what you need on a Dodge, Ford, White, International, etc. chassis as long as the fire manufacturer is the same.If your truck is homemade, many of the things on that truck won't be able to be replaced because being homemade, there are no parts. A problem that you'll find with a truck built on a commercial chassis is that parts are not an easy find. In the case of our Ford, the parts for that truck are not the same as what you'd find on a regular American LaFrance pumper built on a custom chassis (custom meaning American LaFrance body, engine and frame). The problem with commercial chassis is that in many cases when the fire department was done using the truck, the local farmers or contractors would buy the truck from the fire department at a reasonable price, take off all the firefighting stuff, and turn the truck into a work truck. As in my case, you'll find that most of the donor parts for your truck that you need, most likely were scrapped when the fire department retired the truck (30-50 years ago) and the only parts left are the trucks that are still fully intact. In our case, we had to buy a whole back section off of another fire truck to get the parts that we needed to finish ours.Another challenge that you'll find is trying to put the truck back together is not only trying to find the parts that you need, but also knowing where things went. If you are a firefighter, you'll find that over a period of 20-30 years, every time you got a new fire chief in, the first thing that they did was change the trucks around. After 20-30 years of what I call <span style="font-style: italic">"Cob-jobs"</span> your biggest challenge will be putting things back they way that the truck is supposed to be.The one thing that I will stress is if you're going to point judge the truck, don't put any more on the truck than what is necessary because when the truck get's judged, they'll be judging it for the condition.If you have the desire to point judge your truck to make it 100% authentic, here are some things that I can tell you about your truck without looking at it:1. <span style="font-weight: bold">Stripes and lettering </span>- don't use vinyl gold leaf and stripes. That wasn't available in the 1930's, bite the bullet and go hand painted.2. <span style="font-weight: bold">Ladders</span> - ladders need to be wooden, the bottom of the ladders should be painted black, the top should be painted white. You can go almost any distance, but I went the two rungs from the top and two rungs from the bottom. Make sure that the ladders fit in the brackets with a good fit. You don't want a ladder that is 18 inches wide sitting in a bracket that is 24 inches wide. With that 6 inch space, it'll look bad and you'l get a deduction. Make sure that you have the correct hardware and brackets on the ladder for that period (in other words, no rubber bumper type base). Do not use a white nylon rope on your extension ladder.3. <span style="font-weight: bold">Axes</span> - wooden handle, not fiberglass, if the axe has a pick on the end of it, that stays unpainted.4. <span style="font-weight: bold">Two-Way radio </span>- If you have one there's no issue, but make sure that it is correct for the vintage of the vehicle.5. <span style="font-weight: bold">Emergency Lights </span>- Everyone thinks that all fire trucks had rotating lights. Rotating lights were not developed until 1949. So to have a rotating light on a 1930's vintage truck, it is incorrect.6. <span style="font-weight: bold">Siren</span> - mechanical and not an electrical siren.7. <span style="font-weight: bold">Boots, coats and helmets </span>- if you're going to judge the truck, leave them off the truck unless they are like brand new. If you have coats and boots that aren't of the correct vintage, or worn, you'll face a deduction. If that stuff isn't on the truck, there is no deduction. Fire trucks didn't leave the factory with coats and helmets on the truck.8. <span style="font-weight: bold">Fire Extinguishers </span>- They need to be soda acid, and they need to be apparatus extinguishers. Apparatus extinguishers have a shut off valve on the end of the hose. If the extinguisher has a loop on the back side of it, the extinguisher is made for buildings (the loop is for hanging it on the wall).9. <span style="font-weight: bold">Pike poles </span>- if you're going to have them on the truck, a fiberglass handle is incorrect. Wooden handles is that you need.10. <span style="font-weight: bold">Flash lights </span>- have the correct light (or lantern) for the times. If you have documentation or an old photo showing the light on the truck. In either case, whatever you need won't be plastic and it won't be yellow, lime green or orange in color. When in doubt, leave it off.11. <span style="font-weight: bold">Wiring</span> - Do not use plastic coated wiring with plastic connectors, that is incorrect. Also ensure that you keep the correct system (if was a 6 volt, keep it a 6 volt).12. <span style="font-weight: bold">Nozzles</span> - should be a smooth bore nozzle for the truck, a navy type nozzle for the reel. Your Task Force Tips with adjustible water stream will not be correct.If you plan on doing a full restoration of the truck and getting it point judged, follow this advice......Unless you're going to do the restoration yourself, don't put a wrench to the truck unless you have at least $100,000 to do it.You're greatest source for parts is through SPAAMFAA. Attending a national convention will be your best source for locating parts and/or finding someone who knows where to find them.Chief, I hope I haven't overwhelmed you, but I will say from personal experience that a fire truck restoration is an overwhelming experience. You have a very rare and unique truck. Because of that, you may have a challenge, but if you get it restored, and restored correctly, you'll have something that is a real head turner. I will caution you that fire trucks do not hold their value like many old cars will, so the money you put into the truck, will be money that will be forever gone.<span style="text-decoration: underline">To the rest of you on the Forum</span>: Everything that I have told this person pertains to a pre-war fire truck. If you should happen to judge a post war fire truck, it is a totally different beast and ignore everything that I said.Chief, don't be afraid to ask questions if you need anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest EVFD Chief Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Replying to several... Thanks for the welcome and all the great comments. I am a first timer... (probie for you fire guys). That 57 Willys / Howe looks great. I live in Anderson, IN where the Howe factory was and about two block away from where the owner of Howe lived. My current mechanic worked at Howe in the 1950 & 60s and wouldn’t be surprised if he had worked on it originally. I will try to get pics posted soon of my project but at this point it is still in storage with bird poop all over it. Our first step is to perform a rescue and to completely understand what we have. The great news is that it has been kept intact when it was decommissioned and a family kept it for political parades and did nothing to it! It blew a head gasket 20 years ago and they parked it. Everything is completely intact… lights, ladders, lenses, gauges, valves, etc are all intact and complete and as far as I can tell at this point original. Even the original extinguishers are intact… I know it really sounds almost too good to be true. Don’t get me wrong, the paint is pealing and the bird poop has taken its toll, but structurally and mechanically it appears to be in great shape all things considered. All of the chrome needs redone but at least we have all the pieces.The chassis is a REO delivered to the New Stutz Fire Apparatus Company for the body… my understanding is that Stutz Fire quit producing in Indianapolis in the late 20's and started again under the New name in Marion, IN in the 30’s. The body is in really good condition and as far as I can tell, not altered or modified. My first big task is to find out where this particular SN# originally went to, so I can search for early period photos of this unit. The Waterous Pump records is a great tip, I will check that out. It will be a slow project with kids, college, that full time job thing, etc… but as you can tell a worthy cause. I will post the rescue photos as soon as it happens and see if you guys agree.EVFD Chief1936 REO Speedwagon / Stutz Fire Truck1963 JD 110 3 speed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msmazcol Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Thanks for the reply Chief. We are all waiting to see the photos. I don't want to overstep my bounds but if the truck is that complete and un- molested it may be more valuable left alone rather than restored. With a whole new thought process on survivor vehicles be careful what you do to that old gal. Fire engine guys like them shiny and not so shiny as well. I would love to have some contact with your Howe guy. The Willy/Howe is ours.I will send you a PM message with my personal contact info.Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest EVFD Chief Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 I need all the input on this i can get, i know it is a rare find. The original paint was painted over with a coat of white and not done well, so much of it is pealing and some bare metal is showing but noting is badly pitted and no areas are rusted through or even thin. So when i say the body is great, thats what i mean. It can't be shown the way it is, just a good cleaning wil expose more bare metal. so our approach is to first access exactly what we have and what it originally was, and do no harm in the process.Hit me on the PM and i will get you hooked up. He sees trucks all over the midwest and has a line on parts as he still operates a mobil fire tuck mechanic business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ex98thdrill Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Chief,Just so you know the SPAAMFAA national convention is scheduled next month in Indianapolis. You probably won't get a national convention that close to home for a long time.One of the most valuable things that you could find would be to locate a factory photo of the truck. I can't speak for your truck, but Howe, American LaFrance, Seagrave, etc. all took photos of all the trucks built prior to delivery. If you can find one on that truck, it would be very valuable to have. I have one on on our ladder truck, but I'm still looking for the one on our pumper.Getting involved with SPAAMFAA would be a wise move for you too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest EVFD Chief Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 I didnt know the SPAAMFAA existed, let alone with the national show so close. My number one goal is to find the history and early photos. Is that kind of information available at the show? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msmazcol Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Chief, Good health willing we will be attending that muster in Indy with our Willys. See you there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msmazcol Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Like this photo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 MsmazcolInteresting discusion... Sorry but I have to ask....So, is Melville a family name or did your truck spend time at multiple state hospitals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest EVFD Chief Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Msmazcol,Love the photo... that’s what I’m talkin about~! I spoke to our mechanic the other day and he said he would love to talk to you, I gave him your info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msmazcol Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Thanks for asking. In answer to your question both is true. When I purchased the Willys it had been re-lettered in the lower section of the door panel what turned out to be three times. Woodville, Western, and Haverford Hospitals. The second hospital Western only turned up after Paul at Willys America dug into his photo's and supplied it. I have been told that Pennsylvania was great for passing equipment about before it was finally sold out of service. We made a decision to re-name it one more time as Woodville was actually a insane asylum. While the old vehicle hobby does carry certain similarities I thought we could pass on that relationship. Melville was invented to get my Daughter, Melanie's name on the truck without the typical corny methods. If any of you got the youth newsletter this spring you can read her story on "her" Willys. She is in fact the only kid here at school who really does have her own real fire engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msmazcol Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Thanks Chief, I got the PM. I'll give him a ring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter J.Heizmann Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Chief,Like others mentioned Welcome to the AACA Forum.You certainly are at the right place. Our AACA Library & Research Center houses "all" of the SPAAMFAA archives. (<span style="font-weight: bold">S</span>ociety for the <span style="font-weight: bold">P</span>reservation and <span style="font-weight: bold">A</span>ppreciation of the <span style="font-weight: bold">A</span>ntique <span style="font-weight: bold">M</span>otor <span style="font-weight: bold">F</span>ire <span style="font-weight: bold">A</span>pparatus in <span style="font-weight: bold">A</span>merica.)This literature collection is quite large and comprises all sorts of original fire apparatus technical manuals, literature, etc.Click on "Resources" above in the gold header bar then "Library", or, "Library" from the home page, or, contact our Library directly:AACA Library and Research CenterMr. Chris Ritter, Head Librarian501 W. Governor RoadHershey, PA 170333critter@aacalibrary.org717-534-2082Regards,Peter J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Msmazcol,Thanks. Sounds like a perfect solution to the how do I name it dilemma. I understand perfectly. While she does not have a Fire Truck, my daughter has made everyone aware that she (and not her older brother) is the "real" owner of my 1929 Model A Ford Phaeton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msmazcol Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 See you are in great shape already. Your kid's care enough about your worldly goods to fight over them. Their only hitch is your still here to play with them first!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ex98thdrill Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is that kind of information available at the show? </div></div> In many cases, YES, but with the rarity of your truck, it could be a gamble. With an American LaFrance, Seagrave, Pirsch, Howe, or Oren, I'd say without a doubt. In either case, I don't want you going to think that it's a guaranteed thing.SPAAMFAA also has a website with a Forum where you can post the same questions that you posted here, and that too is free of charge.If you decide to point Judge, AACA has the better judging system than SPAAMFAA. AACA has a judging system that is better spelled out when it pertains to authenticity, where SPAAMFAA guys often have their firetrucks restored just to have fun and on many occassions don't concentrate on authenticity. SPAAMFAA has two basic classes Pump (where you're pumping water with the truck) and Static (the truck is on display but doesn't move any water).Many of the parts that I badly needed was secured at the National Musters. If it wasn't for being stretched too thin with time off of work, I would like to go to Indy. Last year I went to Syracuse, NY for their 50th aniversary muster and had a good time.I am a member of both clubs and I'll be the first to say that they're both great clubs, but if you're going to do a full restoration, you need to think about what you want to do with the truck once it's restored. A truck restored to AACA standards will do very well at SPAAMFAA, but a truck restored to SPAAMFAA standards will get badly crushed at an AACA meet.Please don't think that I'm tooting the horn for AACA. In our case because our pumper is on a Ford chassis, we restored our truck to Early Ford V-8 Club Standards. Their standards are higher than AACA, which is way higher than SPAAMFAA as well.If you plan on point judging any vehicle, your best bet is to always restore the vehicle to the club that has the highest standards. If you follow that logic, you'll never lose. That first post that I made on this thread will give you the guidlines to at least get started. Many of the other things are listed under the publications tab with the link to the judging manual (which is a free download).Feel free to ask any and all questions that you want. I haven't seen anyone provide you with any bad information. I've been in your shoes before, so I can relate to what you're doing. At my last count, there have been less than 20 fire trucks win a First Junior or above in AACA since the 1960's. There aren't a lot of us out there who have tried and and successfully accomplished it, but Mark and I are among the select few. A fair majority of these trucks that have won these awards came with trucks that were owned by fire departments that are very well off financially. Mark and I have private ownership which creates even more of a rarity. A fire truck restoration is much more difficult to do than a car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msmazcol Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 Yeah, Mark is just some smuck working out of his garage too. No money, little talent, and certainly lacking in good looks.Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest EVFD Chief Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 That is very helpful to think of it from the perspective of the various club standards. We have a bunch of homework to do and decisions to make. I must say that you have got my heart pumping and i can’t wait to get started. We are set to get it pulled out of it 20 year resting spot and start the rescue this Friday. I have a few pictures taken this week to put this project into perspective but cant figure out how to attach. We also came across an old photo from the 1960s when it was originally salvaged from a scrap yard that I will get scanned and posted soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ex98thdrill Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Chief,Before you tear the truck down, take lots of pictures showing the stripes and lettering, the measurements (thickness) of the stripes and lettering, and where they were placed on the body. It'll save you a lot of headaches later down the road, and your striper will love you for it.I would also recommend that you try to rub out the paint to get the original finish and then try to get the paint color scanned with a computer. In case you didn't already know, American LaFrance has over 30 different shades of fire engine red. With this in mind, you might think you're getting one color and find yourself surprised. Personally if you have a fleet of trucks, I'd consider painting it the same color as the other fire trucks in the firehouse. That way everything matches, and if you have to touch anything up, you only have to keep one color around the firehouse for touching up paint chips and scratches. I've seen fire departments with gray trucks, green trucks, white trucks, yellow trucks and of course red ones too (I'm talking antiques). Of course if the truck is red, no one will ever question the shade of red (unless you use a metallic paint ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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