Ronnie Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 You say you are checking as much as you can. Have you done the test I suggested in my last post nearly a week ago? To find your problem you are going to go through a step by step process to eliminate possibilities. You will never fix the problem by speculating on what the problem might be without testing out your theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natureboy Posted June 12, 2009 Author Share Posted June 12, 2009 The O2 sensor disconnected? As soon as I get it put back together, It will be done. It's just when I saw the O2 sensor wire exposed, I thought it could possibly be the culprit. I just got the car back out of the shop yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natureboy Posted June 20, 2009 Author Share Posted June 20, 2009 Ok Ronnie,I disconnected the O2 sensor and was still having the same problem. I got a 013 code for the O2 sensor. Next step? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 Did you have codes other than the o13?Next, with the O2 sensor connected and everything back to normal and all codes cleared, I would try disconnecting the wiring connector, (shown by the blue arrow in the photo below) from the EGR valve. The cover for the EGR valve can be removed by disengaging it from three clips (one is shown with the red arrow in the photo below).With the EGR disconnected and the engine cool, drive the car until the engine is warm enough that it would start missing. Let me know if that changes anything.Again, you will receive some codes in the computer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natureboy Posted June 20, 2009 Author Share Posted June 20, 2009 Ok will do, And I'll double check the codes again and get back to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natureboy Posted June 20, 2009 Author Share Posted June 20, 2009 Ok Ronnie, I disconnected the EGR and it's still missing. The only code I got was 026. Seems to be missing during accelleration and when it goes into over drive it really starts bucking and kicking badly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 I have went back and read all your post again. One thing that I had not noticed before is the the following statement you made: "Took it to the shop and it looked like the #2 was intermittent with a weak fire and #5 was not firing and now the miss is constant." Has that issue been corrected? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natureboy Posted June 20, 2009 Author Share Posted June 20, 2009 Not sure about anything anymore. I could go out to the garage and pull the plug wires and check again. So is 026 a normal code with the EGR disconnected?I did have the car in scan mode while I was driving it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 Yes, 026 is normal for the EGR being disconnected. You can reconnect the EGR. If the weak fire problem has not been corrected there is no need to do anything else until you have a strong spark on each cylinder. I know you said you have replaced the spark plug wires. Were they new wires? Also, has the crank position sensor been replaced? I didn't see that mentioned anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natureboy Posted June 20, 2009 Author Share Posted June 20, 2009 I just checked the fire on each plug and all of them are firing. The plug wires are new and they are delco wires.Yes the crank sensor has been replaced but I am very suspious about the harmonic balancer. I'll explain. Last week when it was in the shop I asked the tech to check the crank sensor. He went ahead and replaced it and used the special tool to check clearences but he didn't put the tool on the balancer to check for bent blades. When he cranked the engine, you could hear the blades of the balancer hitting the sensor. The tech took the balancer back off and then check the blades with the tool for bent blades. when he spun the tool on the balancer you could here it hitting several blades. He tried to straighten the blades out best he could. When he rechecked the clearence on the balancer, You could hear the tool barely nicking one of the blades. I didn't think that was right but he thought it would be no problem, Reinstalled the balancer and it was still missing. I noticed on the orginal crank sensor a groove where some of the bent blades had been hitting the sensor. I really don't think he did a very good job of installing the crank sensor or straighting out the blades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natureboy Posted June 20, 2009 Author Share Posted June 20, 2009 Ronnie I was also reading in chapter 6E3-B-5, page 60 under cut out, misses, that a misfire could be caused by a misaligned crank sensor or a bent vane on the interrupter.Like I said, I don't think the tech did a very good job of checking for clearences. He said he replaced the replacement sensor after he heard the vanes hitting it. I wonder if the tech actually did or was just telling me he did. He also ordered two balancers from two different manufactures and said they were bent more then the orginal one, So he reinstalled the orginal balancer. One was a dorman and can't remember what brand the 2nd one was. I found a GM balancer at a local buick dealer but they want 265 bucks for it. I was tempted to buy it but am spending to much money on this car. wondering if I should buy it and also another crank sensor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 Did you check the spark while the car was hot and still missing?I don't think it will be the blades bent on the balancer causing the problem. They would be bent hot or cold. As I understand it your problem is only when the engine gets warm. Correct? IF the crank sensor is damaged that might could cause the problem.You have replaced so may things I'm not sure what to do next. You have checked the two primary things that change when the engine gets warm that are controlled by the ECM, fuel delivery via closed loop operation and EGR control. I'm not sure about timing control.I suspect it is an ignition problem but it seems you have changed most everything. Your symptoms are that of a plug wire getting hot and having a very high resistance or possibly a spark plug that is bad. If you have access to another set of spark plug wires I would try them.My next move would be to get an ohm meter and check the resistance of each wire and see if you find anything out of the ordinary. OR if you have the parts on hand, replace everything that has something to do with the ignition at one time. Also be sure there are no metal shields that are close to any of the spark plug wires where it could arc.It is hard to fix'em without seeing them. Maybe someone else has some ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natureboy Posted June 20, 2009 Author Share Posted June 20, 2009 Yes the car was still hot when I checked the spark. Now it seems to be missing pretty much when I start driving it. Used to be when I drove it about 20 minutes. Now it's right when I pull out of the driveway. I got the orginal plug wires. I'll double check the metal plug shields on the back plugs. I'm baffled. Maybe it's something internal that's failing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 If it will miss continuously (not running at all on one cylinder) it will be easier to find the problem and fix it. While it is missing badly have an assistant sit in the car with it in gear. WITH THE BRAKE ON TIGHTLY have him give it enough gas to make it miss. Use some insulated pliers or heavy gloves and pull each spark plug wire off the coil one at a time and see which wire does not affect the running of the engine. If you can do that and determine which cylinder is missing you can concentrate on that cylinder in finding the miss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natureboy Posted June 21, 2009 Author Share Posted June 21, 2009 Sounds good, I'll have the wife push on the gas while I check fire. That will have to be later on in the week. Wifes out of town at the moment. I'll get back with you after it's done and let you know the results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Just be careful and don't get run over. Safety first!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 I am still a little bothered about that code 13 - are you still getting it ? The 1990 FSM shows it as an open O2 circuit and intermittants could cause a miss.That said, it certainly sounds to me like secondary ignition. Did you ever try a Delco ?Too bad you are not here, we could hook up a scope and the breakout box and look at the ICM signals as well as toss on a Delco.When you replaced the plug wires, did you use 8 mm wires ? What plugs did you use and what is the gap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bobby Valines Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Have you tried starting the car at night, turning off all the lights getting it as dark as possible and look at the spark plug wires and coil for arcing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natureboy Posted June 21, 2009 Author Share Posted June 21, 2009 I had the O2 sensor disconnected when I got the 013 code. I had the onboard diagnostics on while driving and the O2 sensor indications were up and down but stayed within the limits per the FSM (This is with the O2 sensor reconnected). I replaced the plug wires with 8mm delco wires and gapped the plugs at 0.60. Bobby, I'll give that a shot, Hell it might actually show some arching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 If you still have the Magnavox ignition, I have found them marginal at .060", they seem to like .045" better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natureboy Posted June 21, 2009 Author Share Posted June 21, 2009 Padgett,I still have the magnavox. I'll regap them to .045. Any little bit to make this engine run smoother is appreciated.To bad your not a little closer to where I live. I could bring this turd over for you to examine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick60 Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Be sure to check your spark plugs for carbon tracking. If the previous ignition wires were bad they will arc across the spark plug insulator and cause a carbon track. This will appear as a thin black line on the plug insulator. It will cause a random misfire. The only fix is to replace the plug and the wire. If the wires are new you can try applying some dielectric grease inside the boot. A spray bottle filled with water is a good way to check the secondary ignition wires. Just mist some water over the wires and look / listen for sparks. You may also get it to misfire when spraying the wires. O2 sensors generally don't cause misfire problems. An O2 code can be set when you have a misfire due to a rich condition. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natureboy Posted June 22, 2009 Author Share Posted June 22, 2009 Ok, I got the car warmed up and put it in total darkness and had someone put it in drive and push the accelerator. I was looking for any arching and noticed at the base of the front three plugs what could possibly be arching but it wasn't jumping around, just a slight white glow. I couldn't get a look at the back three plugs. Wondering if that's normal? The car was missing out the whole time. I'm not quite sure but it looked like the #5 plug could of possibly been arching. If my eyes weren't deceiving me it wasn't constant, just every now and then I think.You could see just a small white color where the plug wires attaches to the plugs. ????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natureboy Posted June 22, 2009 Author Share Posted June 22, 2009 Ronnie, I'll pull each wire while someones got it in drive tomorrow and check each plug to see if any changes occur with plug wires off one at a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bobby Valines Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 Rick has a point you may have already fixed the problem but if it fouled out the plugs they have to be changed not cleaned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-a-n-i-e-l Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Have you double checked your wires? I mean you could have swapped two and not noticed. Just a thought. These engines and ingnition systems run pretty well when a couple wires get switched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ekvh Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 Natureboy.... did you ever figure this out. I have very similar problems with my 88. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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