Full brake work on 89

[Guest imported_Fox W.]

I've been following the posts for years about rear brake rattle, and now in the past couple weeks I have fallen victim. I know it's about time I have some serious brake work done anyhow, so I don't mind terribly.

Here is the thing, I've been over the posts and forum in detail, I see lots of suggestions and recommendations and part numbers (some NLA), and I've been trying to consolidate the data as best I can. In the end, given that my car was from Massachusetts, with terribly rusty calipers and disks, I think it may be best to just get some loaded calipers for the rear, possibly the fronts as well.

Alternatively, as I read it, I need to get the Delco, or Durastop, made by Delco (what is the difference?) pads; The bushings; Pins/bolts , and some kit (part number?) I can't seem to find what is in the kit, and since I thought there are no kits now, and everything is sold separately, is there really an "Anti-rattle kit"? If so, where? There are posts that focus on the clips and springs as the cause, and others that dont mention those, but focus on just the bushings and size of the pad. There are those who say that no pads are the same as OE anymore, while posts have mention that the Durastop are exact. Also, GM part # 18024908, (rear pads) lists them as a kit, though Ive read there isnt a kit now, so what does that come with? I know it would help if I knew more about brakes, but this is so confusing for someone trying to buy all the right parts online.

If I do just get loaded calipers, I would highly appreciate a suggestion of a good source. So far I've seen Napa listed for reman stuff. Now historically for me, reman. equipment has been nothing but trouble, but it would seem its the norm for calipers, so maybe reman is OK with calipers? (as opposed to lets say, AC compressors, fuel pumps, starters). Seems Brembo is a good choice for disks, as Ive read. Any more info is greatly appreciated, and I will follow up with what I end up doing, and the results.

[Guest Jim Piro]

Check your PM's.

[Richard S]

I have always used remans, both loaded and not, with no problems. Frankly, I don't see too much difference between remans from Delco and unbranded. Good sources if you are cost conscious are ebay, autopartsgiant.com and rockauto.com. I got my loaded rear calipers on ebay and they are working just fine. You don't quote a mileage, so it's hard to know if rotors are in the picture. And you will unquestionably completely flush the system before bleeding.

If you are running 15" wheels or want to stay with the stock setup, I would still consider unloaded calipers and ceramic pads. You can upgrade to the larger Aurora fronts sticking with stock wheels. Or you can go for the Camaro SS calipers and larger rotors, but you need 16s or 17s to clear. Having made that conversion, with the larger finned aluminum caliper and drilled/slotted rotors, the stopping power is noticeably better. I could never go back to stock, and the cost is no more than stock [save for the C-note for the Mustang wheels/tires].

[Guest imported_Fox W.]

I have to say that while the Reatta has very soft brakes compared to most sport cars, I have been surprised during the two times I've had to go from 60MPH to 0, and did so while keeping straight, zero lock up, and yet in a very short distance.. when I put the pettle down it stops very well for me. The car has 140k now. I still feel loaded calipers are the way to go on this, but I would still appreciate if someone could clarify the data a bit.

[Guest MauiWowee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Richard S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can upgrade to the larger Aurora fronts sticking with stock wheels. </div></div>

No, sorry, the "Aurora Upgrade" requires at least 16" wheels.

[Richard S]

Of course, you're right Maui. Forgot that the Aurora came stock with 16s.

[Guest Bill_Boro]

I performed the 2000 T/A or Z-28 caliper and 12 inch rotor to Reatta brake upgrade and have several cautions and comments:

--The worst part was that I had to go through five "remanufactured" calipers to get a single good set. The calipers are aluminium. One had stripped bleeder screw threads and the second bad unit had a poorly made (in China?) bleeder screw that was not cut concentric. It therefore buggered-up the bleeder screw seat. Both of these problems were unnecessary if the rebuild company actually had a QA/QC program. Also one of the units was severely pitted from its past life. Of concern was that some of the deep pitting was where the copper crush washer mounted on the caliper and probably would not have sealed properly.

--The calipers are relatively hard to find off the shelf. I had to go to NAPA, AdvanceAuto, and CarQuest to get the two good units out of five. While all of the literature in the boxes suggested that the same company may have rebuilt all of the units for the different stores, there were price and quality differences on four out of the five units. Two of the calipers in stock were only available as packed units so I was forced to buy an extra set of standard pads or wait 3-5 days for an unpacked caliper.

--Core charges are relatively expensive (as high as $97 at one store on one of the units) and return cores must include mounting brackets. I therefore recommend finding scrap units for cores and brackets before you start. The hollow, fine meteric thread, bolts that hold the banjo fittings to the caliper DO NOT come with the calipers which is another reason to find cores before you start.

It should be noted that these double piston calipers are also used on Corvettes and calipers are available with the name "Corvette" cast on them; these of course are much more expensive.

In retrospect, given that time is money and the fact that I wound up installing the brakes twice due to the defects mentioned, I probably would have been better off buying new Brembo or other high end calipers for a 2000 Camaro Z-28 or T/A and installing them.

--This installation requires fliping the calipers from side to side to get the bleeder screws to face up. Therefore the Camaro/Firebird driverside becomes the passenger side on the Reatta and the passenger side becomes the driver side.

--Once the calipers are flipped the stock brake lines DO NOT fit. They are about 2 inches short! This kicked off an epic search for a longer stock "off the shelf" hose that would fit. I eventually had to go to a custom, Teflon/SS braided hose that attached to a new angled banjo caliper fitting and a new ISO type fitting to anchor the other end to the inner fender well. I also had to carefully remove the brake hose mounting brackets from the old Reatta hoses and reuse them with the new hoses. I can provide more information later on the fittings and hoses and possibly a few pictures if anybody is interested.

The good news is that the brakes are fantastic! I drove the car about 200 miles on the Blue Ridge Pkwy up and down large steep mountians and curves and had no signs of brake overheating. The pedal feel is great with the teflon hoses as they balloon less than the stock rubber hoses.

[Richard S]

Just a couple of notes on Bill's unfortunately frustrating experience. I got two sets of remanufactured unloaded calipers from autopartsgiant.com, which I augmented with Monroe ceramic pads. They are $40 each and, thankfully, both sets were fine. There is a $50 core charge [no bracket required], but they did not seem to care that what they got back were my Reatta calipers.

As I indicated in the detailed post on my conversion process, the Camaro [or similar] banjo bolt holding the brake line to the caliper must be used, not the Reatta. These might be found at the salvage yards on lots of cars, but they are also a relatively cheap dealer item for those who don't like trolling these yards as much as I do with dolly and toolbox in tow.

The stock brake line WILL fit, but Bill is correct in saying it is too short if mounted to the strut using the bracket on the stock hose. I removed the old bracket from the line and scouted around Home Depot where I found a bracket for about 50 cents that works fine [i'll post some pics when I get a chance]. Bill's new longer teflon hoses are probably a more elegant solution; mine more cost effective.

I am pleased that Bill's frustration was at least rewarded with the same braking experience as I enjoy: Unparalleled fade-free stopping power.

[Guest MauiWowee]

Having done the Aurora upgrade myself, I found that the stock brake lines are a very tight fit. I would like to upgrade the lines as well, and would appreciate any details on the lines you had made.

[Guest imported_Fox W.]

Hmm, well this is all kind of making me feel even more confused as to what I should do. If it wasn't for the fact that I'm almost out of pad material, and that everything is almost 20 years old, I wouldn't even touch it. I think the brakes work great honestly, they allow me to easily apply a very small or very large amount of friction to the rotors. I don't feel I need an upgrade, I am looking for the most straight-forward replacement possible that will not rattle, just as mine had not for over 19 years. (why is it that nothing new ever lasts so long?) If I could, I would purchase true OE calipers/pads/rotors, if they were still available, no matter what the cost. I like keeping the car original as well.

[Guest Greg Ross]

I did the Aurora conversion years ago, in fact just freshened up with rotors and ceramic all round. Great performance.

Now to your question.

If your rear calipers have not been serviced in 20 years then I'd be a bit surprised if they were working at all. If they started to rattle recently then something has just broken its' corrosion bond.

To do it up right here's what I would suggest to you;

You should source caliper mounting brackets all round, complete with mounting hardware-the slider bolts, slider bolt seals. grease and bracket mounting bolts. Technically it's not recommended to re-use the mounting bolts? Not worth re-using the slider bolts either. They'll be toast.

Rebuilt Calipers again are available loaded, bare, whatever. They were all originally manufactured for GM product so that's about as original as you're going to find readily.

Durastop Pads, semi-metalic I seem to recall are a particular composition nominally different from Delco brand-made by gawd knows who.

Lastly, new rotors and pay the extra dollars for the premium offering, they're much thicker and far more resistant to warping. Probably even enough thickness in them to be turned at some point in the future if you don't use ceramic pads.

Anti-rattle kits/ clips would usually come with sets of pads. They're a spring steel clip that's going to lose its' temper over time, or fall off or usually both!

Seems folks have had success with taking the extra time fitting the rear pads to the rotor they're going to live on. Recycled/ rebuilt caliper bodies will no doubt be somewhat worn on the shoulders where the backing plate seats. Flaring/ upsetting the edge of the backing plate to act as a wedge to snug the pads into the calliper will help. Alternately, silicone adhesive will not last any extended period of time.

Also getting the rear adjusters set properly and learning to maintain them will go a long way to keeping the rears quiet.

Last things I'll mention will be related to corrosion since yours started out life in the Salt Belt. You'll probably find your rear emerg. brake cables are seized so add them to your shopping list. A thorough visual of the brake lines would be the next important check to do. That should include "all" the flex lines, if the outer jacket is checking or peeling then add them to the list as well.

You're easily going to be into a $700. to $800. or more depending on the last few variables to go end to end. Less perhaps if you can do the work yourself.

Greg

[Guest imported_Fox W.]

Thanks Greg, lots of good info there. I noticed that at a point in the emergency brake cable, about center in the rear, where it's thicker with extra outer jacket (is that some kind of junction point?) was torn and peeling away. I removed it and then wrapped it with heat-shrink for now.. Otherwise I use the emergency brake fairly often and it seems to work just fine, does that show it isn't seized? I can't say for sure when the rear brakes were worked on, I know they were 50% used when I acquired the car 4 years ago, and I am very light on brakes. The calipers are almost certainly original as far as I can tell, and have thick rust on them, but amazingly everything works, and I've never had any brake issues, which is why I am trying to be proactive about it now as I think I am pushing my luck. When I moved to CA (had the car shipped here in an enclosed carrier)I moved in to a condo, so I don't really have a great place to work, and I am very busy with my own job, so I likely need a shop to do this for me. I know of a place that does great work, but they are not familiar with my brake system, and so I am looking to provide them with as much info as I can. (such as the flushing procedure on reatta.net.)

[Guest Greg Ross]

Fox,

You're the one in a million drivers who actually use their Emerg. Brake!

I've never noticed that in the middle of the Emerg. brake cable(s) Wasn't particularly looking either!

Those cables are built typically with tempered wire spun/ wrapped around some kind of core. The Cable is obviously not well lubed when assembled so, if not used frequently they are virtually guaranteed to seize in a short few years in the Salt belt.

And yes, by all means, give them the flushing/ bleeding instructions.

May be worth it to go thru and with a high-liter, try and save them some reading time-you'll be paying for it!

Greg

[Guest imported_Fox W.]

I can take a picture of that area I spoke of on the cable. So as I gather here.. So just to be clear, are the calipers avilable for this car not going meet/fit with the exisiting lines?

[Guest Drake]

Fox, if you are going to change your brake lines, seriously consider changing out the proportioning valve for the rear brakes. Last week I changed out all five brake hoses, three steel lines, the rear proportioning valve and did a brake fluid flush & fill. The three steel lines I replaced were caused by extensive rust on and around the proportioning valve. The valve is still available through GM (AC Delco)

part #25525844, approx: $49.00. About nine months ago, I did brakes, rotors & calipers, and knew the hoses were next. The brakes are excellent, and I also use my parking brake.

[Guest Greg Ross]

Fox,

Sorry if I confused you with the suggestion about replacing the flex lines;

The replacement calipers when sourced for your model/ year will fit, and should have all the correct trim on them.

The flex lines need looking at for condition/ deterioration.

and there are a total of 5 of them as Drake notes, 3 are in the rear.

I use my Emerg. Brake most of the time because i have the standard, thought I would be the exception.

Greg

[Guest Drake]

Hey Greg, I use my parking brake because of the slope of my driveway. Don't like constantly putting all that weight on the transmission pin. Now if I had 25" wheels & tires, I could park it on a 35 degree angle ( not sure if the wheels & tires on Maui's post are Big Enough ).

[Guest Greg Ross]

My new Michelin Pilot AS' are 27" tall, is that better? Yes I guess, a few more sq. ins' in contact with the asphalt.

Did you notice Maui's' white Reattas' bumper cover is kicked out a little. I think that photo is for real, first thought it was "Photo Shopped" but....

[Guest imported_Fox W.]

Thanks guys, that was some great info. I feel like I am in for the long haul now. I will look over my steel lines and see if I should do that. I know that my left-rear line rotted out shortly after I got the car and my mechanic replaced it from somewhere near the front of the fuel tank and back, by using a coupler and crimping them together. I know that isn't even legal here in CA for a mechanic to do, so maybe it's a bad thing? (it looks good and has held for 3 years)

What do you all think of these?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1989-89-B...sspagenameZWD1V

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1989-89-B...sspagenameZWD1V

[Guest Greg Ross]

You might want to check in with your local NAPA Dealer and you won't be paying shipping in either direction.

(their notes;

Core appears to include the mounting bracket)

Suggest you confirm their loaded price does include the caliper mounting bracket.

Brake Caliper w/ Pads & Hardware - Left Rear - Remfd

TS

1422128ML $89.49

Core $88.00

Brake Caliper w/ Pads & Hardware - Right Rear - Remfd

TS

1422128MR

$89.49

Core $88.00

[Guest Drake]

Hey Fox, as Greg suggested, give NAPA Auto Parts a try. That's where I was able to get everything I needed to update my brakes. Most of the items weren't stocked at the store, but when ordered, two days was the longest I had to wait. I'm personally very pleased with the parts, the prices & their service.

[Guest imported_Fox W.]

I will do, though could someone also look at this one, since at the price listed, it's cheaper than NAPA even with shipping.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1986-92-B...sspagenameZWDVW

[Reatta45]

Fox:

His feedback is great, he also has left feedback for all of his buyers, with almost 5000 transactions he looks very good. The calipers look good, great price. If I would have spotted these first I would have tried to buy them. KennyV.

[Richard S]

I bought 2 sets from him and installed 1 about 8 months ago. Absolutely no problems.

[Guest imported_Fox W.]

Sorry I have not updated this in awhile. I have gotten 4 Brembo rotors, and front pads from tirerack. I really won't have the time to do this work myself. I am having the shop get me two rear loaded-calipers. They estimate 3 hours, and a total cost of about $700 (Labor rate here in the bay-area of CA is really high.) I am giving them the brake flushing page from reatta.net. I haven't gone to the shop I am using for long since I am new to the area, but they are supposed to be known for attention to detail, and quality of work that you rarely find these days.

http://www.yelp.com/biz/nielsen-automotive-san-carlos

Not much else I can do but wait for my appointment on the 23rd and see how it goes. Also, the driver-side CV joint is popping now and then (usually a series of pops) So I'll have them address that as well. While there, I'm having the front sway-bar links replaced as well. (I really miss when I lived where I had a place to work on all of this myself.)

[Guest Drake]

Hey Fox, glad you got all your parts together. Once the brakes have been re-done, you'll be amazed at the difference it makes.

[Guest imported_Fox W.]

Thanks Drake! Does anyone know about part numbers for the driver-side CV joint? The mechanics say they have checked 4 sources and no one seems to have one that is listed to match the Reatta. I have a 89. Thanks.

[Guest Leadguy]

Plenty of used one's are available starting at about $25. Check for front axle on www.car-part.com

[Guest imported_Fox W.]

Car had to be kept in the shop over night, as they said one of the rear calipers they ordered had an issue with it. They got another one today but it had bad threads. So now they have to keep it for another night. Ontop of that they said they can't replace the accumulator because they are worried about damaging something since mine is 'rusted in place.' Anyone know if there is anything special to be done to remove it?

Thanks.

[Guest Drake]

Hey Fox, you could spray some PB Blaster on the base of the accumulator & let it sit overnight. I used a plumbers strap wrench on mine & it came right out. There's only a small o-ring seal at the base where it screws in. I would be surprised if the internal threads were rusted. Just remember to pump the brakes at least 25 times with the ignition off, to relieve the pressure in the system, before removing the accumulator.

[Guest imported_Fox W.]

I will ask him in more detail what he tried. I did give him all the info I could from reatta.net (Bleeding info and also the pictures of documents that have instructions for removing the accumulator)

When looking around for info on depressurizing them, I found mostly the same info (Some saying 20-40, some saying 50+ pumps)

Though these guys seemed to think that was wrong. (I understand their false logic though)

http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?p=48901

[Guest steakneggs]

If you pump the pedal until it's hard, it should be safe to remove items that were under pressure. That might be only a few pumps if it's been sitting for weeks or if you have a spent accumulator. Steak

[Guest imported_Fox W.]

Turns out they did try it right, and it really is just rusted. If this is a fairly easy DIY project, then I think I will take it on at some point. Question: Does one have to flush again when replacing the accumulator?

So I got the car back and they did a great job actually. The brakes feel real nice, and all is well. They went with loaded rebuilt rear calipers. I kept my original front calipers and just got new pads for them. Used brembo rotors. It takes 1 - 2 petal pumps to make the pump come on. I think that means I should replace the accumulator sooner than later.

[Guest steakneggs]

Ronnie posted an excerpt from a manual showing an adapter/pressure gauge unit to check pump pressure. It uses the accumulator port. It said that no bleeding is required afterwards which would indicate that an accumulator change would not require bleeding either. Steak

[Ronnie]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fox W.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Turns out they did try it right, and it really is just rusted. If this is a fairly easy DIY project, then I think I will take it on at some point.

It takes 1 - 2 petal pumps to make the pump come on. I think that means I should replace the accumulator sooner than later. </div></div>

I would replace the accumulator as soon as possible. 1 - 2 pedal pumps indicates you have a bad accumulator. Running with a bad accumulator makes the pump run more than it should a could cause premature failure of the pump.

Find a good penetrating oil like Aero Kroil and spray the fitting on the accumulator daily for about a week and the accumulator should come out much easier.

[Guest imported_Fox W.]

I certainly will do. Is it possible though that the penetrating oil will contaminate the brake fuild?

[Ronnie]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fox W.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I certainly will do. Is it possible though that the penetrating oil will contaminate the brake fuild? </div></div>Wipe it off before unscrewing the accumulator.

[Fox W.]

I finally was able to do this. It -still- took a huge amount of force to get it off.. Enough that the hex insert almost stripped out, but it finally came free. Replaced it and now it consistently takes 3 brake pumps before the pump comes on. (Engine off, just on battery) I think that is a good/normal figure, no? Thanks.

[Ronnie]

That sounds normal.

[padgett]

I can understand upgrading the front brakes but why the rear ? Unlike a car like the Corvette which is 50-50 or Fiero at 40-60, most of the Reatta weight/braking is in the nose. Very little (under 20% AFAIR) is done by the rear so why change it ?