Sad article about Buick and GM...

[Looey]

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=3816

Maybe some of you have already read this article. I kind of think that some of what they say about the Buick today is true. I don't know ANYBODY who drives a Buick besides me. Not even old people, they're driving Camrys and Accords, mostly. I don't know of any teenager/20's who'd be caught dead in a Buick dealership or who'd drive one in public.

I think the brand is in BIG danger of dying. Not only is it irrelevant to most younger drivers, it's actually a laughingstock. Look, I like the old ones. Like, the real old ones. I am fixing up a neat bombsight Buick (1952). But NO WAY would I consider buying a newer one. It simply isn't done. The new ones, and the ones within the last 30 or so years with the exception of the GN's, are totally geezer and cheap looking and just so boring.

And if you're going to get mad at me for dissing our favorite car brand, try something out for yourself. Ask a teenager/20's, any teenager/20's, if he'd like to own a Buick and see the reaction for yourself. You're gonna get looked at like you've got worms crawling out your ears.

My recipe for saving Buick: hot V8 engines with superchargers, great transmissions including a manual tranny option, 4drs with suicide doors, low roofline, long trunkline, no wedge shaped jelly bean body styling, get rid of all the gross plastic. Young people MIGHT at least look at one a second time. Right now, they don't even register with young people or count as looking a FIRST time.

Don't shoot the messenger: Buick is a terminally ill patient and on life support.

[Centurion]

I read the article, and I think it's worth noting that it was written back in May -- prior to the official launch of the Enclave.

I agree that Buick's proud heritage and reputation for style were badly damaged during the last thirty years. But I think that the Enclave's performance in the marketplace is quite significant. I've checked out the Enclave forum, and see that many of the buyers are folks in their 30's and 40's who have overcome their brand prejudices and purchased the Enclave over the prestigious import competition. The vehicle has succeeded in winning over a significant number of import owners.

The point is that the right product can win people back into Buick showrooms. I've seen some of the renderings of the upcoming LaCrosse replacement due in 2009, and it looks incredible. I'm not nearly as willing to abandon hope for Buick's future as many of the people who love to write these endlessly gloomy articles.

[Guest Tom]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Centurion</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I read the article, and I think it's worth noting that it was written back in May -- prior to the official launch of the Enclave.

I've checked out the Enclave forum, and see that many of the buyers are folks in their 30's and 40's who have overcome their brand prejudices and purchased the Enclave over the prestigious import competition. The vehicle has succeeded in winning over a significant number of import owners.

</div></div>

Interesting comment Brian. I took our '63 E225 out for a drive Sunday around Lake Minnetonka which is a very high test area in the Western 'burb's of Minneapolis. Low and behold, there is a brand new Enclave sitting in a driveway of a very nice, upscale home. This would normally have been occupied by either a Lexus, Mercedes or other such import SUV, so it looks like there are some people willing to look past the old stereotypes and actually see what Buick has to offer for themselves.

[WillBilly53]

I agree. I heard a joke on Klick n Klack a few weekends ago. went something like this...

"This just in... Buick tied with Volvo in Safety Standard Ratings for Consumer Reports. Then again, what can go wrong at 25 MPH"

and I felt bad, but I swear I laughed out loud while driving my Subaru.

I wonder if Buick's market ever was the teenage/20 something, though. It seems that they were marketing young professionals and couples who wanted a little bit of luxury without springing for a Caddy. (at least until the 60's with the advent of muscle cars) My Dad drives his parents' old '98 or '99 lesabre. I drive it every time I go home. And I would love to say that I get excited about it, but honestly the car drives me bonkers. Mechanically the car is fine, but all the accessories and buttons and bells and whistles inside are confusing, in the way, cluttered, etc. The parts do seem cheap too. and on the outside, the design is just so dinky and NOT classic. And on another note, my brother drove our same grandparents' early 90's skylark. same as above. Young professionals and couples are looking towards energy efficient, inexpensive alternatives. Remember when Buicks were inspiring? Well take a look. The Maserati quattroporte even sports ventiports. Point being that Buick's influence is around. That Lucerne CXS that they are raffling off in Washington looks okay. I would love to see suicide doors, OVAL ventiports and a two tone paint job on a modern Buick.

[Guest imported_MrEarl]

I'd buy a new Lucerne or Enclave in a heartbeat if I had the money. IMO dollar for dollar they beat anything on the market.

I'll just say this. The older and wiser I have become over the years, the more I have gained an appreciation and respect for the quality and comfortable ride of the best car on the planet. I see now why mainly older folks drive them, sometimes it apparently takes years to gain such an appreciation of a fine automoblie. Uhmm, by the way Looey, how old are you anyhow?

[Guest imported_Thriller]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Looey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My recipe for saving Buick: hot V8 engines with superchargers, great transmissions including a manual tranny option, 4drs with suicide doors, low roofline, long trunkline, no wedge shaped jelly bean body styling, get rid of all the gross plastic. Young people MIGHT at least look at one a second time. Right now, they don't even register with young people or count as looking a FIRST time.

</div></div>

Well, that's quite the recipe...not a V8, but they had a pretty hot engine in the 3800...oh, that's right - GM is replacing it with a lower power, lower fuel economy V6, but the automotive press was happy to see the "old tech" go.

What you are calling for largely is getting back to style...something that GM hasn't done as well as Chrysler over the last decade or two IMO (Viper, Prowler, PT Cruiser, etc.). The power / excitement may, alas, be reserved for Pontiac, but I would sure like to see a new Wildcat or Invicta (back to the banker's hot rod). The heritage of Riviera is a bit tough with three children as it has been mostly a 2+2.

Up here, I see quite a few relatively new Buicks. The Allure and Lucerne are selling relatively well...I definitely see more Allures than Lucernes. I haven't kept up with it lately, but after launch of the Enclave, I understand they couldn't keep up with demand. Hopefully that is continuing, but it means people won't be seeing them on the showroom floor. I also see many Rendezvous and the owners I have spoken with really liked them.

I read through all the comments on that article...some just make me shake my head, but it is a bit of a look at perception.

When we purchased our Rainier, it was nearly impossible to find one with the inline 6 - I wasn't ready to commit to the V8 with DOD. When we did and our dealer had it, they parked it out front...it generated a lot of traffic and positive talk. I don't know if it generated any extra sales for them though.

Ultimately, when it comes time to replace the Rainier, I don't know what we'll have. We'll certainly give Buick a look and if the Enclave is still going, we may very well get one of those. However, if it is just sedan A, B, or C, then I don't know. We'll assess our needs and wants at that time, but it needs to fit our lifestyle. That includes the fact that we could afford anything on the market if we wanted it, but we have to be able to travel with all 5 of us in relative comfort...if it can pull the boat (say 2500 lbs), then so much the better.

Well, I'm just rambling now...um Lamar, about this wiser bit...could you please elaborate? I mean, I know you are getting older, but....

[Looey]

I'm way too young to be shopping for a new car, so maybe you guys can comment on this.

The article says GM was really good at keeping their dealers happy. When the dealers wanted to sell a cheapo econobox car GM would slap a Buick badge on any hunk of junk and let the dealers scam the customers.

So about the dealers, there was a cartoon in the funny papers the other day, Dilbert. The pointy haired boss was in a meeting telling Dilbert and the others that their company couldn't compete on price. They also can't compete on quality, service, or function. They would have to resort to fraud to sell their product. This would be the function of....MARKETING!

So did GM and Buick rely on scamming the marketplace to sell junky cars and now it's caught up with them? And their reputation is so bad for it that they'll never recover the trust and respect they used to have?

Has GM changed? Have the dealers? Some older people I've talked to say that car salesmen are the lowest forms of life on earth, born to lie and live to lie. They say going to look for a new car is worse than getting a root canal because the whole thing at the dealer is to rip your money away from you and leave you broke. The broker you are when they get through with you the better they like it.

You gotta be kidding me. Who'd come up with a way of selling their stuff that makes the customer dread coming into your store? Who'd do business with that kind of person in the first place, let on keep doing it for nearly 100 years? I mean, if a kid is selling lemonade from a stand in his front yard and is deliberately ripping people off by advertizing lemonade but giving out pondwater, who'd come back?

Who comes back to the Buick dealer? I guess only people who like pond water instead of lemonade. Is GM and Buick run by a bunch of retardos or what?

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"This just in... Buick tied with Volvo in Safety Standard Ratings for Consumer Reports. Then again, what can go wrong at 25 MPH" </div></div>

There's a list making the rounds entitled "What Your Car Says About You". None of them are good, but the Buick entry is : <span style="font-style: italic">Buick Park Avenue--I'm older than 34 of the 50 states.</span>

You gotta admit, it's funny.

Before Scion, the last car I can remember actively marketed to teenagers was the first edition Mustang. If you want to look for an entire brand thus marketed I think you have to go back to the cycle-cars of the pre-WW1 era. Buick's former core market is now BMW's core market, doctors/yuppies/lawyers/etc. As for age distribuition, this link is to data In USA Today that's about 2 years old. BMW buyers are almost 15 years younger on averge that those who buy Buicks, and others (Saab, Acura, Infinity) are younger than <span style="text-decoration: underline">that</span>! Notice how much less trouble Cadillac is in compared to Buick. Somebody in Detroit cared about Cadillac!

Preferences regarding road isolation and soft ride aside, it's kind of hard to fault the current line of Buick <span style="text-decoration: underline">cars</span> (their trucks and especially mini-vans are another story). They're boring as hell, but well made, reasonably inexpensive and functional. Kind of like Toyota. In some ways (especially fuel mileage) they don't compare well to their competitors, and there's no doubt there's room for improvement. ( Read cars.com's review of the Enclave for a particularly maddening example! )

...But they're not the junk heaps of 1988 any more. Now if only the buying public didn't have to see 20 of those junk heaps every time the set out to visit their local Buick dealer.

Sadly, there appears to be <span style="text-decoration: underline">no</span> preparation for the future at Buick. Promises of roughly the same things (pretty 4-door sedans) made better is all I hear. Hybrids and diesels aren't even mentioned, yet Saturn (which is essentially Oldsmobile's replacement) all but shouts it from the dealer's roofs that both are coming for them. In a tight fuel market, which every analysis predicts, the Enclave is not going to help Buick or GM at all. It's like coming out with a quieter telephone dial.

[Guest imported_buggboy]

A little background here: I spent 12 years as a GM Master Tech, most of that time at Buick dealers from 1991 to 2003. The last two years were at a Chevy/Caddy store. Sure, salesmen for ANY make can be snake oil salesmen. I've seen Honda sales-creeps I wouldn't trust to hold my empty soda can. Most of the Buick sales folks I knew were career salesmen/women, not in it for the quick buck, and most had a long line of repeat customers who would only deal with them.

I started at GM stores in 1991, and did mainly driveability and transmission overhauls. Needless to say, at that time, I was one busy tech. Yeah, GM put out a lot of low-bid junk in the 80's and early 90's. HOWEVER, there were a helluva lot of good ideas that the technology just couldn't support. Ever hear of PowerMaster ABS systems? (Actually more an anti-skid than true ABS). That was a GREAT system, when it worked right. Big problem was if the cheap main relay or pump relay crapped out, you had a little ole lady who could not press the suddenly non-power-assist pedal. Ya gotta remember that in the 80's and early 90's, the whole electronics thing was in its INFANCY. How about the touch screen CRTs in Rivis, Toros, and Reattas? Good idea, the technology just couldn't support it at that time. Now Lexus and BMW has touch screens. Hell, GM still was running CCC carbs until 89 on the B body wagons with the 307 Y motor. Anybody happen to remember just what a CF the Rochester fuel injection was on the 50's Chevys?

GM has "badge engineered" since the 60's. As time wore on, there was less and less real, qualified difference between the brands, especially in the 70's when they put Chevy 350's in Oldsmobiles and got caught at it. Within the last 5-10 years, there is now a LOT of difference in carlines.

Personal experience, I drive a 97 Riviera with the 3800 K motor. Wish it was supercharged, but it still has gobs of power. That car has 168K on the clock and still runs like a champ.

[JohnD1956]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Not only is it irrelevant to most younger drivers, it's actually a laughingstock. Look, I like the old ones. Like, the real old ones. I am fixing up a neat bombsight Buick (1952). But NO WAY would I consider buying a newer one. It simply isn't done. The new ones, and the ones within the last 30 or so years with the exception of the GN's, are totally geezer and cheap looking and just so boring.

And if you're going to get mad at me for dissing our favorite car brand, try something out for yourself. Ask a teenager/20's, any teenager/20's, if he'd like to own a Buick and see the reaction for yourself. You're gonna get looked at like you've got worms crawling out your ears.

</div></div>

Okay, this raises my blood pressure!

You know what's really sad? People read this garbage and then believe it without taking a look for themselves. That's why 20 year old "kids" don't give Buicks a second look. They have heard the a- holes saying Buicks are for old people and so they don't even take a look because (horrors) someone might see them in an old person's car.

Meanwhile the 87 -89 Lesabre t types are not only great looking but kids actually slow down and gawk when they see it. Tell the 20 something in the car wash that it's a Buick when he asks and the answer is Wow!.

How about the 92-96 Regal GS 2 door cars? Sweet, quick, and fun to drive. But no 20 year old will ever know because ( horrors) Buicks an old mans car!

Ever drive a 93-95 Ultra? How about a 95-99 Riviera? I know, they're old man cars...

Last time I took my GS to the local fast food place the 20 year old kid nearly fell out the drive through window when I came around the corner.

Know what, people who read everything and believe it without putting one ounce of their own research and thought into it deserve exactly what they get. Drive your Camry's and Accords and Whoa.. Scion's...

And by the way, I like my LaCrosse. It is also sweet, quick and fun to drive. And the best part is when you put up all the windows you don't have to hear those fart can Hondas when you're passing them.

JD

[Looey]

Hey, I hear you about fart can Honda's. I hate 'em, too. But lots of kids like 'em for these reasons. One, they tick off old folks (yeah, I know, stupid reason, but there it is). Two, they are really really really reliable, so kids can blow their money on pot and beer rather than fixing up their cars (maybe over stated, but you get my point). Three, most kids like video games, not working on cars, so Hondas fit the bill really nicely there.

But here's my main point. I'm saying that back when kids WANTED to own an Olds 88, a bombsight Buick, a GS or a GN, and respected Buick even though they had no hope of owning one, see? Now it's like, Buick? Yuck. Gross plastic geezer wagon. Buick has no cool about it, no desirability, no excitement about it period. Yes, older people need slow boring cheap looking cars to keep their blood pressure down and all, but when they finally do croak, no young people are going to want to take their place at the Buick dealership.

Sorry if it seems like I'm disrespecting older people. I'm really not. I'm just trying to let you know how the young people feel about Buick and GM. They're both about as respected as beer puke on the floor of a public bathroom. It might not be fair or good for the country, but that's the reality. And GM and their slimy dealers are the ones who put Buick into this spot! They killed their own car, for crying out loud!

[Guest Dan Cook]

I don't think Buick ever went out to impress young people. When I was young and was getting my drivers license I don't think I even knew what a Buick looked like. My dad picked out a 1953 Pontiac Chiefton, I think that was what it was called, and I hated it. The cars my friends had were more cool but at least having a car was great. Then having a 50's something Chevy would have been better.

That was back in the '60's. Kids today don't know what a classic car is because there aren't any on the roads and very few parents it seems can not afford to help them get a car of any sort. Mostly what I have seen where I am living is that if a teenager has a car they can barely keep it going but I think it makes them have some kind of responsibility and pride in what they do have. Kind of like what I did. Know one can expect todays generation appreciate the cars that we saw every day on the road while growing up.

In some respects you might be right about Buick fading out. Look at what happened to Oldsmobile.

[Looey]

Hey, I took my buddies over to see my new '52 Special and they were just wigging out. They were trying to figure out the gearshift on the column even though it has a clutch. What a hoot. Then they went ape when I showed them how the hood opens on either side or completely comes off. THEN they were floored by the str8-8 engine. Most had maybe seen a 4cl in line, and they wondered if it was 2 4cyl engines hooked together. I mean these guys know jack about cars and didn't have a clue.

The huge back seat got some of them thinking that you could totally hook up great back there. Gee, what a novel idea. Wonder if that's ever been tried before? LOL.

They agreed that no AC was a major bummer, but that was just more of the old school thing after all so it's okay. They laughed at the AM radio and asked me if I was going to cruise cool to Rush Limbaugh.

Anyway, all things considered, they really liked my car. They can't figure out how I'll get it going again, but I know we will!

So hey, Buick! Pick up the phone! Wanna attract attention and interest again? Just make the bombsight Buicks again! Guaranteed winner for you there!

[Guest Dan Cook]

It seems you are selling the Jap cars because they are so dependible. Buicks aren't for kids. They couldn't handle them anyway. If you really wanted to, you could blow the door off any rice burner that tried to test you.

I get a lot of looks from older people and some that want to talk about the car, 72 Electra 2 Door limited, and I spend time with them. Generally they had a car like it or simular and it takes them back. Great feeling. I am 60 so you can imagine how old some of these people are.

The Buicks ain't for kids.

[NTX5467]

It's surprising that on a "slow news month", somebody gets some alleged credibility by talking about Buick being things which lead the general public (who reads that stuff AND believes it as it's "in print") to believe that they don't want to be associated with the demographics which Buicks (allegedly) traditionally portray . . . namely the "age" thing. In reality, that's an easy target as nobody really wants to admit they want to be considered "old", unless it's the 8 year old that wants to grow up.

It's easy to point out that Buick owners typically are "old", but those demographics are for NEW Buicks and nobody seems to follow them for used Buicks--KEY POINT. 60-somethings or rental companies might buy new Buicks, but I've noted (for at least 10 years now) that many 40-somethings buy those same Buicks when they are traded in (typically, for a Regal, at about $16K selling price), and then 20 somethings end up with them a few notches later in the car's life. I've seen that play out MANY times, but those stats are not tracked, which makes the "No young person would look at a Buick" argument (by my observation) highly inaccurate.

Back in the 1960s and such, car salespeople (as a group, rather than specific individuals) were considered to be liers, cheaters, etc. Overpromising what the particular vehicle could do ("Tell the customer what they want to hear, that the vehicle fill fit their needs"), underallowing what their trade-in is worth ("They STOLE my trade-in!"), and then "They would not 'deal' on the price of the new car at all!" So they stole the trade-in, price-gouged on the price of the new car, sweet-talked the buyer as necessary, then sold them an inflated-price extended warranty (scare tactics?) and some fancy paint sealant (which the body shop industry hated!), and then shook my hand and thanked me for my business--the nerve!!! But people still bought cars and found out later that others might have gotten "taken" worse than they did.

Sometimes, I think people had too many choices and didn't know enough of how to effectively shop vehicles, so they got paranoid and insecure about things (and didn't want to admit it). It wasn't the actual dislike of the whole situation, but the dislike of not knowing if they were getting that "best deal" every dealer promised. BUT, once they found a salesperson they could deal with, vehicles they liked, and a salesperson who treated them well, things changed.

It's still possible to find career salepeople in GM or Ford or Chrysler or other makes' dealerships, but there are still many "young guns" that are out for making a name for themselves and might not be there next year (at the same dealership). It's always reassuring to the customer when they see stability in the sales force and other areas of dealership operation. I believe that GM is still paying "Career Builder" incentives to motivate salespeople to not move around too much. It might be a variable situation as to which type of dealeship ownership is most conducive for sales force stability, but I suspect that if you find a long-time family-owned dealeship, or one that used to be (and hasn't "run off the old guys"), you'll find many salespeople who've been there for 10+ years--a variable situation, though.

In some cases, the "old people" demographic can pay dividends for the way the customer is treated. Not everybody wants to be "sold" by somebody that is the age of their grandkids and is "hot to go" to sell them something--another variable situation, be that as it may. Still, it's to a dealer's advantage to have salespeople of different sexes, ages, and ethnicities on their sales staffs.

I concur that BMW is where former Buick-demographic customers have migrated to, or could it be former Mercedes customers too? In one respect, some of those demographics are somewhat trendy and fickle, but Buick seems to be doing a good job of getting their attention with the Enclave advertising. Funny thing is that future Cadillac models will be following the size and such of BMWs! The CTS has been compared to the BMW 3-series since it came out. The STS would be the 5-series. And so on . . . . And those new 2008 CTS commercials about "If you turn on your car, does it return the favor?", with a sexy female that makes the old Catera ads with Cindy Crawford . . . and The Duck . . . appear rather tame!

Yet Buicks were never as flashy as similar Cadillacs . . . at least in prior times. Still, flashy and distinctive in their own right and compared to other GM and other brand cars.

Even with a seemingly small number of platforms, Buick has many market demographics covered as well as they did in the 1955 era. Buick needs to push the "High Style and High Value" theme in their advertising, including some pictures of the Lucerne with the standard center console for the younger demographics and the Lucerne with the center seat cushion for the demographics that desire that. IF the Chrysler 300 can have multi-generational appeal, the Buicks can be similar with the RIGHT adverting and vehicle content options.

I also feel that some target marketing with a ride-n-drive event (as they did in the later 1990s with the Regals) would be good things to do, too. At the event we went to for the Regals in 1998, there were very few older people there, but lots of "Supercharged Family" types. The Hondas and such that were in the program were typically ignored! Yet these were NOT the allegedly "typical Buick owner". Many of the things that worked back then can work now, too, but with a generation now running things that was not around then, many don't know about these things or how well they can be used as marketing tools and investments--to change people's minds about Buicks how good Buicks ARE, if nothing else.

Recently, Newsweek magazine put out a survey about Which Chrysler Products (basically) Need to Die. It's been kind of amusing to watch the dialogue of what Cerberus should do, but these comments are typically made by people who have little, if ANY, concept of how things in modern car companies are inter-related to each other and how much volume for each platform needs to happen to pay for things. Like how the Dakota and Durango are now sharing frame dimensions, for example, to trim costs--discontinuing one is not an option and it would take other products with it (from market niches where a product is definitely needed). Some posters wondered if anybody still reads Newsweek?

Unfortunately, the authors of these articles and surveys don't realize how much negativity they fuel with these things! Nor do they seem to care, but it sells publications or gets hits on their websites . . . and that seems to be all that matters to them.

Just some observations and thoughts . . .

NTX5467

[Looey]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NTX5467</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IF the Chrysler 300 can have multi-generational appeal, the Buicks can be similar with the RIGHT adverting and vehicle content options.

I also feel that some target marketing with a ride-n-drive event (as they did in the later 1990s with the Regals) would be good things to do, too. At the event we went to for the Regals in 1998, there were very few older people there, but lots of "Supercharged Family" types. The Hondas and such that were in the program were typically ignored! Yet these were NOT the allegedly "typical Buick owner". Many of the things that worked back then can work now, too, but with a generation now running things that was not around then, many don't know about these things or how well they can be used as marketing tools and investments--to change people's minds about Buicks how good Buicks ARE, if nothing else.

Just some observations and thoughts . . .

NTX5467 </div></div>

See, I think you're right on here. The Chrysler 300s are really admired by teens/20's... we just cant hope to own one unless our folks are rich and stupid enough to buy us one. But we do look at some of the Chrysler cars as being really cool and affordable, especially as used cars we can buy. The Honda thing is total BS as far as I'm concerned (hey, my Grandpa fought in WWII and I'm not buying any Hirohito Trash!) but they do a wow job of making them fit what young people look for.

Chevy still has a lot of cool from the old days as a muscle car builder and the 350 engine. Pontiac is still respected because of the Firebird and GTO. Ford because of Mustang. So a young guy could show up in one of those brands and not be laughed at out of hand. But Buick? Another story.

Look, I'm in your corner here. But if Buick doesn't become known for something current that's cool really really really fast, they're history, toast, archives. This is way critical, folks! You CANT sell cars to dead people! GM keeps trying, but they just won't sign on the dotted line! LOL!

[lrlforfun]

OK Buick People: As far as styling and image go, old people, young people and middle aged people KNOW what they like. As far as understanding about reliability and performance they probably find out from other sources.

We like our old Bu's because of some kind of powerful and magical relationship we experienced with them at some time past or present.

Today's Buicks are like every other car in one respect. They all have all the bells and whistles, leather, color, music, fuel injection, air bags, abs, etc. They are also BUTT-UGLY like most vehicles on today's roads.

The difference........Imports have the ABSOLUTE history and image of better reliability. You can protect the Buick name with everything you've got and it still comes out the same. Americans auto companies may never get it and that's the reality I live with. I really wish it were different. Mitch

[Guest my3buicks]

"Quote"See, I think you're right on here. The Chrysler 300s are really admired by teens/20's... we just cant hope to own one unless our folks are rich and stupid enough to buy us one. But we do look at some of the Chrysler cars as being really cool and affordable, especially as used cars we can buy. The Honda thing is total BS as far as I'm concerned (hey, my Grandpa fought in WWII and I'm not buying any Hirohito Trash!) but they do a wow job of making them fit what young people look for.

Chevy still has a lot of cool from the old days as a muscle car builder and the 350 engine. Pontiac is still respected because of the Firebird and GTO. Ford because of Mustang. So a young guy could show up in one of those brands and not be laughed at out of hand. But Buick? Another story.

Look, I'm in your corner here. But if Buick doesn't become known for something current that's cool really really really fast, they're history, toast, archives. This is way critical, folks! You CANT sell cars to dead people! GM keeps trying, but they just won't sign on the dotted line! LOL!

Checking out this link it appears that maybe more than just us "old" people have interest in a Lucerne. I think Sema shows maybe draw one or two young people. Frankly, as a mid 40's car buyer, I am glad my tastes are a little more refined than a teens or 20 something buyer. Wahoo, as I zip around in my Scion(NOT).

http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2006/10/2006-sema-show-buick-lucerne.html

[Dave@Moon]

There's no doubt that Chrysler has introduced by far the best designs in the last 10 years. Many are quite successful as well. <span style="font-weight: bold">However, they're in dire straights and more likely to kick the bucket than Buick right now!</span> Why?

<span style="text-decoration: underline">It's the past products. Only the past products. Nothing but the past products.</span> Ever talk to a Concorde or LHS owner? Would <span style="text-decoration: underline">you</span> rather be driving a '99 Neon or a '99 Civic? My father dropped 2 rebuilt transmissions into the last 2 Chryslers he bought ('90 & '93) to the tune of an unexpected combined $6000 bill. Today he drives a Hyundai XG350.

To someone who sees a Lucerne or a LaCrosse and it only triggers memories of their/friends' old Somersets or Skylarks, the SEMA show Buicks were just pigs in make-up. It's sad. It's wrong. But it's true.

A generation of quality chart topping products (of which we're about 5 years into right now), and some diversity of product with emphasis on engineering for the <span style="text-decoration: underline">next</span> decade instead of the last one (of which there is <span style="text-decoration: underline">no</span> sign as yet), is the only thing that'll "save" Buick. If GM can't "save" Buick, and it only tries to get by with cheap transportation & trucks (Chevy) and out and out luxury cars (Cadillac), then it'll never "save" itself.

[Guest BJM]

Yea just what Buick needs to do, market to the 18 to 25 crowd. That's crazy and useless. Lucerne is a scary nice car with somewhat bland styling, probably on purpose. We all say they need a Velite / Riviera type car.

Buick will do just fine, they have gained one dealership in our metro area in the last year. The alignment with GMC-Pontiac-Buick is a good move.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Before Scion, the last car I can remember actively marketed to teenagers was the first edition Mustang. </div></div>

I forgot about the AMC Levis Gremlins and Hornets.

[Looey]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BJM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yea just what Buick needs to do, market to the 18 to 25 crowd. That's crazy and useless. Lucerne is a scary nice car with somewhat bland styling, probably on purpose. We all say they need a Velite / Riviera type car.

Buick will do just fine, they have gained one dealership in our metro area in the last year. The alignment with GMC-Pontiac-Buick is a good move. </div></div>

Oh, my God. Tell me you didn't write this response. Go back and read it again. "market to the 18 to 25 crowd. That's crazy and useless." Lessee here. If Buick takes that attitude in the 1950's, the 1960's, the 1970's, the 1980's, the 1990's, and the 2000's what could the result possibly be? I'm only 15, but even to me the answer is as obvious as can be!!!

Could it be the average age of Buick owners being 65 and older? Could it be a US market share of less than 2%? Could it be snickers and jokes by comedians? Could it be if a guy drives a Buick made within the last 2-25 years chicks will turn him down flat just because he drives a totally dorky car?

But, just to argue your point for you, lets say Buick only produces cars costing $30K and up. Few young people can afford them. But 1) for $30K you ought to be able to put some real engineering effort and neat stuff into the looks and performance of the car. 2) having done so, young people look at the car and say, "I wish..." so that when they CAN afford $30K, they go look at a Buick.

Dang. Sorry to insult you, but you'd be a perfect employee for Buick... 25 YEARS AGO. Your ideas are the exact attitude that got them into the toilet they're in today. But TODAY it doesn't work either! YOU need to work someplace where your lack of vision can't destroy a great brand like Buick. I hope to God you don't work for Buick or they really are history! Sorry, bro, but there it is.

And can anybody tell me why they named a model the 'Lucerne'? I looked that up in the dictionary and it means 'alfalfa'! They named a car after hay! What genius came up with that!? Dairy cows everywhere are dying to own one. LOL. "Hay, baby, want to go for a ride in my Alfalfa? We can go park somewhere so I can milk your udders." sheesh.

NOTE TO GM: Da 'YOOTS' of the world do not get excited about hay or pastures or cud or hay poop. QUESTION TO GM: Does ANYBODY!?

[Guest bkazmer]

If you don't like "Lucerne" , ask yourself why "Lacrosse" isn't used in Quebec.

Sorry, but Buick's job is not to get 18 year old buyers - that's Chevy's. Then, as stated, they are supposed to want to move on to Buicks (remember Mr. Sloan?). Chevy is the crumbling foundation of GM's car line. Excepting Corvette, what was the last new Chevy that elicited any excitement?

[Guest Jstbcausd]

So I just finished reading the article and agree that it seems to be pointing out old news, nothing new about Buicks being regarded as "an old mans car". However I can give you several people's names my age (32) and under who've I turned on to Buicks, starting with my 84 Park Ave to my 93 Regal GS. All of them used to laugh at my choice but once they rode in them and actually saw how well they actually held up they began to buy Buicks.

I think everyone is forgetting that Buick is atop the list of dependability, tied with Lexus of course but hey number 1 is number 1. I think that as people look for a car new or used they look at that rating and it sways them one way or another. Of course I think those who look to consumer reports and Motor trend for what to buy are idiots and shouldn't buy a Buick because they wouldn't know what to do with a Buick.

The real problem that GM (& Buick) has is that thier cars are just too damn much. I actually was able to see a new La Crosse Super the other day- and I have to say WOW!! The car was that Candy Apple metal flake ( not sure the name) color with the chrome 18" wheels and the new grille (based on the Velite- I think) and even my friend who has said he'd never buy a Buick was impressed, until he saw the price to which he said I'm only a teacher. I think GM needs to do what they did in the fifties, you had the Roadmasters and Delta 98s in the showroom to draw people in to look, and when people said it's a little too much you had the Supers and Delta 88s for them- same car but a little easier on the wallet.

Another thing that couldn't hurt- Where are the 2-doors? Look at those hondas and toyotas you see the younger people driving- most of them are 2 doors, I think you can't debate the simple fact that 4-doors imply family car( I have owned 4 4-doors including a wagon) but kids today want sporty looking cars even if they don't have the power of a v-8/6 they look really fast. Now I don't how hard it'd be but make a 2-door LaCrosse or Lucerne call it the Regal or Riviera and price it below 30 grand and just maybe you'd see Buick sales pick up.

Just a few of my feelings-

[Reatta Man]

I think there is something you all have alluded to that is critical for Buick's future; getting someone to RIDE in a Buick.

Yeah, I've converted a few people over the years to Buick just the same way some of you have--by getting someone INTO a Buick. But how do you do that? That is the $100 billion question.

GM has been trying with ride programs in various cities; I think they are probably going to have to do some more of that. Maybe a 6, 12 or 18 month lease at a ridiculously low rate? Maybe; but of course, they will need some better styling and colors to make that happen.

And, if you think a 6, 12 or 18 month lease is ridiculous, just remember, GM sold thousands of cars to crossover buyers with their overnight promotion a few years ago. And, 6, 12 and 18 month leases are common in the business world.

I also say again what I have said all along; warranty is a company putting their money where their mouth is. The GM and Chrysler gimmick warranties on powertrains are a joke; but when Hyundai puts a 5 year 60K miles bumper-to-bumper warranty on everything they sell, they have my attention. And, oh, by the way, Hyundai still has a longer B2B warranty than Cadillac or Lincoln.

Let's hope Buick's future is in the hands of car people and not bean counters.......

[Looey]

Reatta man, you're right on. Those friends of mine who checked out my '52 the other day are pumped about my Buick. At least now when they hear "Buick" they'll at least remember something interesting they saw that was a Buick. One day before that if they'd heard "Buick" it would have just made them totally laugh. And once kids start laughing at the car make it's really tough to get them to ever take it seriously.

Some of my reading says that Chevy was considered an old man's car back in the '40's and early '50's. They changed that by coming up with a cool sports car the Corvette. OK, nobody young could afford one of those, right? But young people at least didn't just automatically laugh when you said "Chevrolet." THEN, when chevy came out with the small block chevy motor (a REAL improvement and NOT just a cheap plastic stick on gimmick!!!)a couple of years after the warm glow had started it became the young guy's first choice of cars. And that young image made older people happy to be seen in them too. Young people don't want to be seen in an old guy's car, but old people want to be seen in a young guy's car. It just works that way. If you don't like it, get with God and have him change Human Nature. Don't yell at me for pointing out the obvious!

I mean this is just as plain as can be. YOU DO NOT GET PEOPLE BUYING CARS WHEN THEY'RE MADE AND MARKETED TO PEOPLE WHO ARE ABOUT TO DIE.

Chevy did it. Pontiac did it. Buick MIGHT be able to do it if they get off their booties and do something cool. But its pretty late in the game for a Hail Mary pass to work this time.

[Guest rlbleeker]

You seem to be forgetting/ignoring the fact that people change. What's generally appealing to a 20 year old probably isn't to a 60 year old. Believe it or not, when your 60 (assuming your not now) you may very well buy a boring 4 door sedan and be happy with it. There will always be 60 year olds and they will always buy cars. That said, I do wish they'd make a 2 door, because I'm not 60 and I don't have a family and I'm not going to drive a 4 door. By the way, I've been driving a last gen Riv since 2000 and most younger people thinks it's a pretty cool car.

[Reatta Man]

Looney,

There is a VERRRRRY old slogan in the car biz that still applies today:

"You can sell a young man's car to an old man, but you can't sell an old man's car to a young man."

That slogan totally applies today with two exeptions; one is that you have to be able to GET INTO the car, whoever it is made for. The other exception is that people have to be able to buy the car. The best examples of companies forgetting this lately are the Chrysler Crossfire and the now-cancelled retro version of the Ford Thunderbird.

Anyone over about 5' 11" can't get in the cars, and no one making less than $35-45K can't afford to buy the car. So, the T-Bird is cancelled and the Crossfire probably will be soon due to poor sales.

Rlbeeker's example of driving a Riv since 2000 is an example of how Buick used to do it--you could get into the car, afford to pay for the car, and it has aged pretty well.

Joe

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Sorry, but Buick's job is not to get 18 year old buyers </div></div>

Baloney. See below:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You seem to be forgetting/ignoring the fact that people change. What's generally appealing to a 20 year old probably isn't to a 60 year old. </div></div>

Any college sophmore taking courses in marketing would beg to differ, and would fail out of school trying to defend this statement. The fact of the matter is that by age 25 brand loyalties are essentially set for <span style="text-decoration: underline">life</span>. That's why <span style="text-decoration: underline">all</span> advertizing and most media are youth oriented. That's why an AM radio pundit with an (old) audience of millions makes far less money than the latest pop star that only 1/10th of that number can even name. That's why there's one Golf Channel and 37 Nickelodeons.

The kid in the class of 1970 who wanted a Buick is the guy buying a Buick in 2008. <span style="font-weight: bold">Who</span> in the class of 1990 <span style="font-style: italic">really</span> wanted a Buick? Care to compare that number to those who lusted after Acura and BMW?

Therefore it is <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">imperitive</span></span> that Buick build <span style="font-style: italic">something</span> that people outside of it's target demographic can appreciate. Do you <span style="font-style: italic">really</span> think there was a 65 year old doctor anywhere in America in 1970 who thought a bright yellow GSX was a good idea? That kind of broad product range, and progressive engineering, is dead. The company will go with it if things don't change quickly!

[Guest rlbleeker]

If brand loyalties are set for life, how come so many of my fathers generation 55-65 who were raised with the big three are driving Hondas? When I was a kid, in the 80s, I REALLY wanted a 60's Chevy; a Nova or Impala, or dream of dreams a Camaro because that is what was cool then. Somewhere of the past 25 years I turned into a Buick guy, and I'll take my GS over a Camaro any day of the week.

Now, I'm in no way saying Buick shouldn't build a car aimed more towards the younger folks. As I said before, I'm young enough I still want a sporty two door, or convertible and I'd like to be a Buick (that brand loyalty you mentioned.)

I still have to argue that people and their needs change. In the GM family the model has been start with a Chevy and work up to a Cad, Buick just a step on the ladder. We'll have to wait 40 years to see if Honda can hold onto those younger buyers.

[Guest BJM]

Dave,

Not sure on the analysis. You usually back your statements up with good factoids. My dad drove Chevys, Fords, and Plymouths for years because that's all he could afford. When he dumped the 5 kids, retired, got remarried and now they can't even get into the principal of his 401k, just living off interest, he has purchased a new Mazda 6 (Mazdas Camry/Accord) a new Ford Ranger and a nice boat.

Most of the folks I remember back in the day (1972 to 1990) drove Chevys, Fords. I'm not sure who bought Buicks over the last 60 years - that would be an intersting essay - to know the marketing results.

My Dad's 72, so he doesn't even fit the boomer demographic. That's what?? 1946 to 1963 most put it at? That group is just retiring with fat pensions, disposable incomes. Their houses are paid for, they can buy Buicks. Who the heck cares if Johnny Junior, age 22 wants a Buick. You should know "follow the money/show me the money".

The old Bunkie slogan worked in 1956 for Pontiac, they didn't have much choice. They had a hot V8, and most of that was marketing at least by 1959 (wide track).

[Guest imported_Thriller]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Looey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh, my God. Tell me you didn't write this response. Go back and read it again. "market to the 18 to 25 crowd. That's crazy and useless." Lessee here. If Buick takes that attitude in the 1950's, the 1960's, the 1970's, the 1980's, the 1990's, and the 2000's what could the result possibly be? I'm only 15, but even to me the answer is as obvious as can be!!!

Could it be the average age of Buick owners being 65 and older? Could it be a US market share of less than 2%? Could it be snickers and jokes by comedians? Could it be if a guy drives a Buick made within the last 2-25 years chicks will turn him down flat just because he drives a totally dorky car? </div></div>

Before you fly off the handle at me too, remember that I will be expressing my thoughts and opinions, which I am allowed to do, as you are.

OK...when you start off saying you are 15, that leads me to wonder how much of the 90s you even remember. I don't mean to be insulting, but while you may be indestructible now (as many teenagers are), wisdom typically comes later.

Let's actually look back on the last 25 year of Buicks, which takes us back to 1982. There have always been four door sedans of various quality levels and varying levels of stylishness (if that is a word). In there have also been some wagons - perhaps not to everyone's taste, but they are certainly utilitarian. I've heard that those with the LT Corvette engines are pretty snappy in the performance department. Supercars or near-supercars aside, the last 25 years have seen Buick make some of the most desirable cars around. The first ones that come to mind are the GN and GNX. Simply put for someone with testosterone, drool. This date range also includes some pretty nice Rivieras, in both soft and hard top. If you didn't want the black cars, the Regals could be had with similar performance and came in more colours. Then there was also the Reatta - again, hard and soft tops. There were definitely some pretty exciting cars in that span.

Now, there is one thing that comes to mind again when thinking from a testosterone-laden point of view - other than the general comments about the wagons and sedans, those cars were all 2 doors. Coincidence? I think not.

So, no matter how performance-oriented your 4 door may be, a 2 door will always appear sportier to probably the vast majority of the population.

Could it be that simple that what Buick is missing is simply a 2 door model? Perhaps.

On a related note, I saw a last generation Riv today in a parking lot. I was drawn to it for being a Buick, but as I looked around, I couldn't help but think it was probably the most beautiful car in the lot.

Seeing as there is a bit of age stuff going on, I'm shy of 40...right now with 3 children, even most 4 door sedans are a bit small for us, particularly if we are traveling and require luggage space. We rented a Century a couple years ago and, while it was a bit tight, it was a pretty nice car overall - appropriately powered, quiet and comfortable inside.

I would love to see the return of something like a Wildcat - big enough for the family, but fun enough to once again be called a banker's hot rod.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If brand loyalties are set for life, how come so many of my fathers generation 55-65 who were raised with the big three are driving Hondas? </div></div>

The question being asked by almost every 40 year old spouse being driven to the Buick dealer.

They may be driving Hondas, but I bet they're still buying Barbasol and drinking Budweiser.

Brand loyalties <span style="text-decoration: underline">can</span> change due to circumstance. I was a devout buyer of Fram and Champion auto products, until product changes that cheapened their quality made me question those loyalties. i used to do almost all my shopping at Wal-Mart, until I learned about their predatory and dangerous business practices. However in the absence of those changes I'd probably still be buying those Fram filters and Champion spark plugs at Wal-Mart. It will take similar dramatic qualitative changes in Honda/BMW/Toyota/etc. products for those with loyalties to them to change their minds.

However, the people like Looey here <span style="text-decoration: underline">can</span> still be reached, and every marketer knows that. You can't spend a week on any college campus (as a student) in America without being hit on by a couple dozen marketers and marketing efforts for everything from soda pop to mutual funds. There's a reason why the 18-24 year old demographic is the most important to any broadcaster, and why it isn't called the 18-35 or 18-60 year old demographic.

This is a long term problem. It'll need a long term solution. The product quality is there today, though it'll take time for that information to get out. Looey's point about the product design <span style="font-style: italic">not</span> being there as yet is a valid one.

[Guest 4buick7]

The saddest thing about the article is that it is true. A once great marque has really slipped. My grandfather drove a '36 Buick over 300,000 miles because he waited too long to replace it (WW II). He traded in a Pierce Arrow for the Buick so it was obviously a respected make. Immediately after the war the favorite car for the Hollywood set was a Buick convertible; style, prestige and dependability.

A recent article in the Orange County Register listed actual number of sales by make in Orange County, CA. Buick came in dead last. This is in the county where several automobile makers have their styling centers as Southern California is noted as a style leader for the rest of the nation. Buicks once prestigious position has been replaced by BMW, MBZ and Lexus.

Styling is just one issue. Reliability and build quality is just as important in establishing a reputation. The last two new Buicks I bought were an '85 Skyhawk and an '86 Park Avenue. The Skyhawk was for my teenage daughter who refused to take care of her restored '66 Mustang convertible. She considered the Skyhawk as punishment which was about right as it wasn't much of a car. The Park Ave wasn't any better; it ate four transmissions in 70,000 miles and at 90,000 miles it was literally falling apart. We also bought a new 87 Mercury Colony Park wagon which my wife drove for 10 years without anything ever going wrong.

Unfortunately Buicks are either a joke or not even noticed by young people. With the exceptiom of a Ford Explorer and a new GTO, all of my married children and their spouses drive Japanese or German cars.

The new Enclave is a step in the right direction and the first new Buick in years that I would consider buying. The recent poll naming Buick as having the least number of complaints shows that GM is starting to get their act together. Buick needs to continue to improve their styling but become more distinctive. The new sedans are an improvement but look too much like the Japanese cars. Buick needs to make the transition to rear wheel drive. Front wheel drive is simply a cheaper way to build cars. Name the top luxury makes and all are rear wheel drive. Buicks heritage demands they join the luxury leaders if they plan to survive in America.

47 Buick Estate Wagon

[Guest BJM]

hey Derek, you forgot the Reatta, although I don't believe your post was necessarily about noting all the collectible Buick sof the last 25 years.

The Reatta is a nice package, Buick created it, used a reliable corporate motor, designed it in house and it is aging well. Few people say that a Reatta is ugly.

It's a two seater, so most who own them have the kids gone BUT the best part about collecting Reattas is that they are currently extremely affordable. And restorable with patience. They get great real world gas mileage. Everyone should have one in their collection - and as you mention the latest gen Rivieras are special.

Buick will be just fine. I remember 1955 when I think they sold over 1,000,000. Those days are gone. Any single car maker excepting Toyota would be hard pressed to sell at the high rate of the mid 1950's.

If GM called all of their cars "GM" then you could compare apples to apples with Honda/Toyota/Mazda/Subaru etc. So it muddies the picture. Some Buick franchises would have struggled by themselves, but I think GM has addressed that with the redoing of the divisions.

[Guest bkazmer]

GM is the company, not Buick. Hence the marketing of multiple brands, each with its own definition. If that hypothetical student of marketing doesn't flunk out before his second class, he'll hear about brand equity - you can't be all things to all people. I think Buick suffered from GM's oversharing of components - when the brands are perceived (rightly) as being pretty much the same, the number of people willing to pay more for the dressed up version of the same basic car goes down. Remember the Cimarron? The Pontoldsmuicks approach has risks. The incremental volume at low additional cost is always attractive in the short term, and the profitability of the more expensive version is high. Ford trucks with leather seats and a big grille sold by a Lincoln dealer are huge money makers. But do you shop for a luxury car at a truck dealer?

[Reatta Man]

Dave is right up to a point. One of the other critical concerns is cross support from unexpected, or sometimes unplanned sources.

A few examples include the Cadillac Escalade, which was pretty much being panned by the critics as a thinly veneered Suburban (which the early ones were) until it caught on with the hip-hop crowd on MTV. Now, no gangsta wannabe would be caught dead (sometimes literally) without his pimped out "Ex-calade." YO!

And of course, the Hondas and Toyotas weren't THAT big with the young crowd until the accessories caught on, such as the coffee can mufflers, tail lights, fiberglass hoods with goofy scoops and other add-ons. GM has even realized how big an affect this can have by trying to get more kids into putting accessories onto their (then) Cavaliers and now their Cobalts.

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

...But they're not the junk heaps of 1988 any more. Now if only the buying public didn't have to see 20 of those junk heaps every time the set out to visit their local Buick dealer.

</div></div>

I'm not sure this is true anymore.......look at Hyundai. They were pure junk when they came out. Everyone that owned one even thought that. Look at them today, they're selling like hot cakes. Their image didn't hurt them.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> A recent article in the Orange County Register listed actual number of sales by make in Orange County, CA. Buick came in dead last.</div></div>

Given Orange County's demographics and politics, that is nothing less than shocking.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Their image didn't hurt them. </div></div>

Like he!! it didn't!

I bought a 2000 Elantra wagon from a dealer in 2001. I paid <span style="text-decoration: underline">almost exactly 1/2 of the original sticker price for that car!</span> That'a a one year depreciation that no other car approached then or now. Yugos (while they were still kicking) didn't drop 50% in value in the first year!

I bought that car out of desperation. (I needed a small wagon, which was almost an extinct animal at the time.) I didn't expect to keep the car 2 years. I still have it, and now plan on keeping it at least another 3.

Hyundai somehow started building solid, reliable cars beginning about 1996, a year in which (I read) that they were averaging sales of 4 cars per dealer per month! . By 2001/2002 they were on even keel with just about every manufacturer, and they're now among the 3 or 4 best quality makes in every survey (in the classes where they compete). The 10 year/100K miles warrantee got people in the door. Not needing it brought them back.

Now, look at their lineup to see why they're selling. If all they had of substance was the Sonata and the Azera they'd be Buick. You can get almost anything from a Hyundai dealer, even a hybrid in less than a year.

How do you like that? <span style="font-style: italic">Hyundai</span> gets a modern drivetrain before Buick does! That's the whole issue in a nutshell, right there.