no title for car

[Putnam_Ct]

My Father has a 38 Packard 120, with no title.

He is having a hard time getting it registered in Massachusetts. Seems the registry only sees things in black and white regulations. No room for a grey area. Has anyone had this problem? What can be done about it?

Thanks in advance,

Pete

[Guest bkazmer]

go to a different DMV office. The individual can make a big difference

[bernardi]

I've been told that either Georgia or Alabama will issue new title papers. If the proper address comes up, I'll post it here.

I believe the information was once posted on the "Jeepster" thread.

[alsancle]

If the car has never been titled then this is not a problem but requires doing a bit of work before going to the registry. In Massachusetts your dad needs to write & sign a notarized affidavit stating, when he bought it, what he paid and the fact it has never been titled. If he just bought it from somebody, they need to do the same. You then need to get a "VIN visual inspection" form, which I forget the form number for, but basically it means you have a local cop come and inspect the VIN plate and have them sign it. Take all of the above to the registry, you will be there three hours because this will require a call to Boston at some point in the transaction, but eventually you will get your title.

However, if you are trying to title a car who's title was just lost along the way, that could be a problem. You need to backtrack owners until you get to the one that has title and have them get you a duplicate.

[Guest bkazmer]

It doesn't have a VIN number(much later law). You may have a model and serial number if the plate is still there. Otherwise use the engine number.

[alsancle]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bkazmer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It doesn't have a VIN number(much later law). You may have a model and serial number if the plate is still there. Otherwise use the engine number. </div></div>

Correct. When I said "VIN" I basically was saying body # or engine # for earlier cars. The officer of the law that you get to sign the form has to feel comfortable that it is a unique identifier for the car and is "unaltered".

[Putnam_Ct]

Well,

My Father checked with a Packard club here, and was told that the 38 had a sticker not a plate with the Vin number on it. He was told that it was a problem and that they (Packard) went back to a plate in 39. I don't know how true this is, but there is a spot on the firewall just under the body ID # and it looks like there was some type of sticker there at one time.

Also, we have the old registration from 1963, and it clearly states a Vin # that cannot be found on the car anywhere. The police filled out form mentioned above using the body # and the registry didn't want to hear that. Of course it would help if I could get my 74 year old Father to get in line at the registry, just answer the questions and stop trying to tell everybody in the building a long story,(yeah, much like this one). Everytime he goes, he comes out with more questions than he went in with.

Has anyone had experience with out of state dealers that can issue a Dealers bill of sale? I am under the impression that the registry will take that in liew of a title as long as it is notorized.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Putnam, I once had an issue here in CT with an NJ car and couldn't get anywhere with the DMV. I escalated to the comissioner's office ands spoke with someone in Hartford, explained the situation with all my facts ready to go (involved a lien of something like $50 or less on the NJ title from many years ago) and got the fellow's title, name and phone number. When I went back to DMV, I got the expected hassle but they called him up and ultimately let me register the car. My point here is that a lot of times neither the front line staff or the branch manager will make a decision that strays from the book. You or your dad my want to do a little homework and speak to someone higher up. If you can prove your ownership, and the fact that the '38s are uniqui in that they have no tag, hopefully common sense will prevail.

You probably already know registering here could be difficult as well, as the only other thought I had would be to register it in CT to get a current registration and transfer it to him in a year or so, but that may be more trouble than it is worth. Even if MA does no require a title on older cars (CT doesn't as I am sure you know) I wonder if it is worth it to get one through one of those services - you see them in HMN, just another thought.

Good luck with it -

[TG57Roadmaster]

Your '38 Packard used the motor number as it's VIN, which is located on the upper rear driver's side of the cylinder block. The motor number range for '38 120's (AKA Packard Eight) is A-300001 to A-399999.

There should be no question about the VIN if you use the motor number. Ask the Mass. DMV if there's a form to search old, handwritten records. That's what I had to do here in SC to find out that a title had never been issued for the '55 Chevy Bookmobile I just acquired. It just fell thru the cracks when titles began being issued here in '58-'59.

Otherwise, look in Hemmings under "Services Offered" and pay for a new, transferrable title from Alabama.

That's not a redneck moonroof on top, just a previous owner's interim storage solution.

TG

[Owen_Dyneto]

It is true that Packard used a decal to record the vehicle number on the cowl in 1938. The venicle number was two sets of digits, XXXX-YYYY. The first set identified the year, chassis and body type, and the second set was the sequential production number. Many of these have deteriorated over the years (Packard didn't expect the cars to last 69 years) and once that number is lost, there is no other record of it on the car. Some states title with the engine number though far more use the manufacturers vehicle number (such as that on the missing decal). The problem with using the engine # is that people change engines. By far the best alternative is to use the "Thief-Proof Number" which the the large number embossed into the cowl near the top. It is usually enclosed in backets like <>

[Guest bkazmer]

The only issue with the body number on the cowl is that it was pressed in as batches were made and has very little traceability to any factory records. I agree the engine is changable but the correct sequence for a car is known as the previous poster listed.

The sticker for '38 was Packard's effort to find an even worse ID method that the removable plate screwed to the cowl.

[Guest BigKev]

My '54 was missing it's door jam tag, but the body number on the firewall plate was present. According to the last registration (from 1986), which I found in the glovebox, my car was registered using it's engine serial number as it's VIN number.

When I take this car to get registered, I will have to get it inspected and verified either by DMV or CHP, and the State of California will probably issue then me a state generated VIN number sticker/plate that I will have to mount somewhere in the engine compartment.

As I didnt get a title for the car when I bought it (only a Bill of Sale), I will have to file a lost/missing title form. But I did have a CHP buddy of mine run the plate number and the engine number through the computers and he verified that no record of the car existed in the system, nor has it been reported stolen anywhere in the U.S. I did this before I ever turned the first wrench on the car. Better safe then sorry.

I once bought a '52 Chevy 5 Window pickup (no running gear) that I wanted to restore. But I found out that it was still in the computer system, and it had 7 years of back fees and penalies due on it. So I sold it to someone that wanted it for parts, as I didnt want to start with something that already had a $2,000+ of back fees due on it.

Everything differs depending on the state you are in.

[bernardi]

I, too, need to replace a lost title for a car.

Google "Lost Auto Title". A couple of places will appear - one from Texas and one from Alabama. and possibly others. The Texas lead furnishes a bonded Texas title and charges $100 plus the cost of a bond. The listing did not give a time estimate. I spoke with the Alabama place. They furnish an Alabama title, charge $149 and say it takes about 12 weeks.

Posters on the Jeepster site have used the Alabama source successfully. I have no feed back on the Texas place.

[TG57Roadmaster]

Bernardi,

Word is that with a bonded title, you have to put up a surety bond for a number of years in case someone, somewhere, eventually lays claim to the vehicle. I would be wary of such an arrangement.

TG

[bernardi]

The blurb on Google indicated that the bonded Texas title was transferable and accepted by other states. I saw their illustration of cost - $100 plus the one time cost of the bond. I couldn't find it just now, but memory says the bond cost for a $6,000 value car was $90, or $190 total. The Alabama cost would have been $149, so I expect to use it.

In browsing the Google listing, it is amazing how much the costs vary.

"You pays your money and takes your choice" - I'm putting out information, not recommendations. Thanks for noting the possible negative aspects of the Texas title.

[Guest AlK]

Ah Guys I hate to bust your bubble but the only way Alabama enters into the equation is if you arrange a sale to a resident of Alabama(some you trust explicitly) and then with the valid Alabama

registration this person sells the car back to you. Alabama WILL NOT under any situation issue a title to any car prior to 1975(the year they became a title state) I know this because I have tried

several times. I have always maintained that if I wanted to steal a car, I would do it in Alabama

especially since these clowns require you to keep your registration IN the car. So you steal the car forge the signature on the registration, make out a phony bill of sale take it to the local DMV and viola you have just obtained owenership of a new car and the previous owner has to go thru the tortures of the damned not mention expense to reclaim what is rightfully his. I have presented this scenario to officials in the main DMV office in Montgomery and while they did not dis-agree with what I proposed they said the computer would not allow them to issue a title. The old "the computer is at fault trick" I then told them that computer programming is my business and that I could get their computer to do exactly that and they came back and that it was not possible to allow me access to their system. I said let me just talk to your computer people and I will tell them how to do it. I was then thanked for my concern and given the bums rush to the door. Typical politicians. Now I will grant you that this all happened a while back so if any of you have recent experience to the contrary of what I have said please tell me because I would love to get my cars titled.

[Putnam_Ct]

So today, My Father of 74 informs me that one of his buddys that he has been playing cards with every thursday night for about 25 years, has a wife that works in the registry!!! Sometimes it is a real toss up between him and my 16 year old son, LOL. I think he does this on purpous, some kind of payback for my teenage years. I'll let you know how it was done if it gets done.

Thanks for all the feedback.

[Lawteachr]

Try Broadway Title.

[Mike Cullen]

For a pre-75 vehicle Alabama provides a transferrable registration, the same as New York prior to '73. You take that to your state and after the normal hoops are jumped through, you will be issued a title or transferrable registration, however your home state does it. Some states will jerk you around some, but you will eventually be OK.