carbking

Wanted - looking for issues of "Pontiac Owners Magazine", published by Pontiac Motor Division of GM in the years 1939 through 1942. Also looking for other Pontiac magazines to include "Pontiac Warrior" and "Pontiac Cooperation"; as well as the GM publication "GM Folks". Have now completed my set of "Pontiac Safari", so do not need these. Would also be interested in other Pontiac magazines not listed. Jon.

1 - 1996 Ford Aerostar 4.0 4x4 2 - <5000 commute, about 25,000 total 3 - Hwy about 24, city about 16 4 - No 5 - No 6 - Do not believe the hype 7 - No! Will bicycle first! Congratulations on your graduation!!! Jon.

With all due respect to Eric, who seems to be happy with his eclone; the eclone is calibrated for a "screamer" engine (low torque, high RPM), whereas the Packard engine is more of a "torquer" (high torque, lower RPM). If cost is no object, the eclone can be modified. However to make it work as well (not better) as a rebuilt (assuming the rebuilder knows what he/she is doing) original Rochester 4-GC; the eclone would need different rods, springs, jets (both primary and secondary), the auxiliary air valve; and machine work done to the primary venturi clusters (location of the idle tubes and airbleeds). Not saying the eclone won't work; simply saying that without major modifications, it won't work as well. The above comments for a normally driven street vehicle. Remember the current price of gasoline. If going faster is your thing; then, with major modifications, there is probably more horses available with the eclone than with the original 4-GC as the CFM can be larger (however, there are larger 4-GC's available as well). Personal reccommendations: (A) for normal street use, go with the original; (B)for going faster, try a larger 4-GC (Palmer marine has one for a 355 CID which is a 625 CFM) or a genuine Carter AFB (preferably from a Pontiac 389 or a Chrysler 383, as these engines more closely resemble the Packard fuel curve, thus fewer and easier modifications). For someone who is a whiz at welding, would love to see results of grafting a spread-bore plenum and flange on the runners of a Packard manifold and install a Rochester quadrajet or Carter thermoquad. The square-bore to spread-bore adapters just don't cut it. Jon.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Carbking, thanks for the posting. Great information on the 0-speed times, now I don't feel so bad, I went 0-60 in about the same as your posting, I just need to learn how to drive at 25mph.... <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />. Quick question while your still reading this. I thought I would have ported vacuum for my dist advance, it appears to be constant. Would you know if thats correct? and then the next question would be timing of the engine with or without the vacuum hooked up at 500 rpm. </div></div> Will have to defer these questions to someone else, as I do not know. My expertise is in the carburetors themselves, and in Pontiacs. Glad you liked the post on the road test. Jon.

My guess would be that the person or persons responsible for naming the WCFB are no longer with us; so would agree we will probably never know for sure. A couple of the gentlemen that told me Will Carter Four Barrel were with Carter in the 1950's, so I give credence to their comments. As to "wrought cast" versus "white cast", I won't try to argue the semantics of this because I flat don't know. However consider that in the 1920's and 1930's Carter was calling their iron bodies "wrought". Most Carter Carburetors beginning in 1932 had a type designation beginning with a "W" and had iron bases. These include the W-1, W-2, and WA-1 single barrel; and the WD-0 (zero, not "ohh"), WCD, and WGD two barrel. The WCFB's had aluminum airhorns; either iron or aluminum throttle bodies; and only the bowl, choke housings, and pump housing were contructed from "zinc alloy" or "white metal" or "pot metal". Is is possible that the official designation changed? Of course it is. The offical company line in the 1970's and 1980's (before Federal Mogul) was Will Carter Four Barrel (see the Dave Emanual book "Carter Carburetors"). Fortunately, we do not have to know why the type designation was picked. The important issue is that the WCFB was, and remains, a pretty good carburetor. Jon.

Well, I give up. Searched the Carter files I have, and found no reference to why WCFB was chosen or what it means in the 1951, 1952 files. Did find the following which may be of interest to Packard owners: Mileage and acceleration figures for Packard 300 and 400 with Carter 985s WCFB carburetor, Ultramatic transmission, and 3.54 axle ratio: Mileage at constant speed of: 20 MPH - 24.0 MPG 30 MPH - 22.6 MPG 40 MPH - 19.6 MPG 50 MPH - 17.3 MPG 60 MPH - 15.75 MPG 70 MPH - 13.8 MPG Top speed 102 MPH Acceleration: 0/10 - 2.1 seconds 0/20 - 4.25 seconds 0/30 - 6.75 seconds 0/40 - 10.0 seconds 0/50 - 14.2 seconds 0/60 - 18.98 seconds 0/70 - 24.98 seconds 0/80 - 31.93 seconds Test 7/19/1952 released for publication 11/17/1952 Jon.

According to everyone I ever spoke with at Carter (after I asked), WCFB stood for "Will Carter Four Barrel". One of my friends from Carter "gently" corrected me before I asked (no, he didn't use a ball bat <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />) for parrotting "wrought cast four barrel" which I had incorrectly read in aftermarket literature. AFB does stand for Aluminum Four Barrel. As to the jets: Carter used a 120 prefix to mean main metering jet. The following number prior to about 1968 or so was simply the next sequential number and had no meaning as to size. Beginning about 1968, Carter coded most of the jets to correspond to orifice size. These start with 120-350. For AFB, YF, and AVS secondary jets the code would be: 120-3nn - jet let than 0.100 where nn is the size in thousanths eg 120-350 is 0.050 120-4nn - jet great than 0.100 (up to about 0.119 eg 120-419 is 0.119 For AVS primary (high step) jets: 120-4nn - jet less than 0.100 beginning with 0.089 eg 120-489 is 0.089 120-5nn - jet greater than 0.100 up to I think 0.104 eg 120-501 is 0.101 Thermoquad jets received a different numbering system. The newer AFB jets may be used in WCFB carbs. While I would dislike using the word always, virtually all WCFB and AFB carburetors will have larger primary jets than secondary jets. As previously mentioned, the primary jet has a metering rod (except in a few marine AFB's), so the primary jet must be larger. <span style="font-weight: bold">Never attempt to interchange the "high step" AVS primary jets with other jets. </span> Jon.

Rick - those garbage disposals are a classic example of an item designed to fail 1 day after the warranty ends <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I have a less expensive solution - a cat <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />, and a garden. Throw the garbage on the garden. The cat will eat what it wants and the rest makes good compost. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Pick a long-tailed cat, as they are better mousers (or so say the oldtimers). Jon.

Rick - I certainly hope it wasn't aimed at us. Jon.

Assuming you have the original Detroit Lubricator carburetor: The idle mixture and high speed mixture on this carburetor are controlled ENTIRELY by the function of 2 large springs. The springs should always be replaced when the carburetor is rebuilt, and adjustment is <span style="font-weight: bold">absolutely critical</span> . Follow the instructions in your shop manual. Another possible issue (if the carburetor is high mileage) is the seal of the airvalve and bushing clearance of the airvalve shaft. As previously mentioned in this thread, if an electric fuel pump is used, the pressure to the carburetor MUST be low (1 ~ 2 pounds). We highly suggest using a self-regulated fuel pump (Federal Mogul has a couple of different, others probably do at well) instead of the dial type regulators which are questionable at best. Finally, like most "automatic" carburetors, these do NOT like a fuel with substantially different characteristics from gasoline (read ethanol). Jon.

Here are pictures of original parts, if I can figure out the attachments. Jon.

Oldest Felpro book we have is 1980; the gasket was gone by then. Jon.

Original Carter 1A-76, which was superceded by 1A-97, which was superceded by 1A-108 (final service number). Jon.

I am a charter subscriber, 31 plus years. However, when my current subscription runs out, I will allow it to gracefully expire. The founder/editor has retired and recently sold the magazine. The new owner/editor has a different approach to car restoration; plus it has been announced that a long-time columnist's column would no longer be included. Jon.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> If it doesn't work, then I'll save up my pennies for a larger carb. But it's going to be a long time before I'm ready to hang a carb on it, so maybe I'll get lucky and find the 'real thing' before then. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Oh, and My Dynomometer is the same type they used in '29, my Eyes and Ears. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> </div></div> The "real things" are available, just pricey. Jon.

Rick - the key is in the velocity of air going through the carburetor. Generally, a smaller carburetor will run much RICHER if placed on a much larger engine, up to the point where the carburetor is too small to provide the airflow, and then it goes lean. With the Detroit being an "automatic" carburetor where the metering is controlled by a tensioned spring, it is much more difficult to recalibrate the carburetor for a different engine. Can it be done? Yes. Do you have an engine dynomometer and a spring winding machine? The print supplied was a standard 8 carb; if they painted it, then chances are good they also painted the super 8. Jon.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Jon, Thank you very much for the Info and web-link. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I wonder how hard it would be to make a stacked-plate-Adapter, (2 plates with tube welded between them) and use one of my Standard-8 carbs, on the Super-8 manifold? Since I'll have to modify the linkage anyway, it may be better to try an adapter, instead of trying to buy another type carb and make it fit? Since I'm Not going to be trying to brake any speed records with this car, I think the smaller carb should be sufficient. An adapter would be better than modifying the carb or manifold. I could use the adapter until I found a real Super-8 carb, that is affordable. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Do you know if all Detroit Super-8 Carbs are supposted to painted black? If not, what's the deal with the black ones? </div></div> Rick - don't do it!!! There is a vast difference in engine size (319 CID vs 385 CID). You run the risk of burning up the super 8 engine by trying to use the standard 8 carb. As far as the painted carburetors, I lost an argument on this one <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> with a good friend, as he supplied a Packard print showing the Detroit model 51 carbs were originally painted with wrinkle-finish black paint. The external fitting (throttle arm, screws, etc.) were originally nickel plated (but AACA has been accepting chrome, with is more durable). If you really want to use the standard 8 carb on the super 8, fabricate a new manifold and use TWO, not ust one! That would be about right. Jon.

The following link will explain which carburetors were used on which cars by application: http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Kpackard.htm This information was supplied to the Packard Club several years ago, but has been updated with new information since then. The standard 8 and super 8 did use different size carburetors. The easiest way to tell the different is to look at the number of screws holding the bowl to the throttle body. All of the super 8 carburetors used 4 screws (2 on each side) while the standard 8 used only 2 screws (1 on each side). The "fly in the ointment" are some export carburetors which do not follow the domestic applications. With all due respect to the poster giving an estimated cost; good luck on finding a solid core at those prices. Due to the scarcity and price of these carburetor many enthusiasts replace them with replacement carburetors. The problem with using the replacement carburetors is fabricating the necessary linkage to replace the original throttle linkage (unique to Packard). If one is capable of fabricating the throttle linkage; then the standard 8 carb may be replaced with CERTAIN models of Carter BB-1, Stromberg SF-3, or Zenith 63AW12 while the super 8 unit may be replaced with CERTAIN models of the Stromberg SF-4 or Zenith 63AW14. Jon.

George - the fuel pressure is the most likely culprit, given the additional information. Fuel pressure specification is 3 1/2 pounds. A fuel pump expert I am not (the fuel pump is a foreign device that gives my carburetors problems ); however a friend who is mentions that many Ford products had a pushrod that operated the pump. The pushrod and the arm on the pump would wear, caused reduced pressure. Maybe someone else will jump in here on the fuel pump; but you need more than the 1 1/2 ~ 2 pounds you mention. Jon.

Holley put tags on the carburetors. However, the first time the carb was replaced with a commercial rebuild, the rebuilder would remove the tag. The commercial rebuilders "grouped" carburetors of different applications, and did not want the original application known to the purchaser. Very unusual to find a tag on any Ford product carburetor in the 1940's, as many were unnecessarily rebuilt because of undiagnosed ignition woes. Jon.

Reason 3 may be eliminated (or at least greatly reduced) by replacing the Schebler duplex carburetor by a 15-year old kid riding the running board, and pouring gas into the engine out of a boot! Jon.

Art - my interest in plastic models surrounds the Pontiac GTO. Any good stories on any of these? Jon.

Art - thanks for the excellent tour of model car history. I downloaded it all, printed it, and it is stored with my collection of unbuilt plastic models. Jon.

You are correct in the applications, incorrect in that the castings (main body, throttle body, and airhorn) all differ. They also differ in choke arrangements and metering calibrations. Jon.

Silverghost - I have not before heard the story of the governor. Was this an integral governor or a sandwich governor? Which cars had the governor? Another incident that led to the "myth" of which you speak is the 1933 Ford V-8. Ford was testing carburetors from Holley, hoping to replace the Detroit Lubricator with the less expensive Holley. 1000 cars were equiped from the factory with Bracke (division of Holley) carburetors. These were then removed at the first service by the Ford dealer. The fact was these were sorry excuses for carburetors and thus were not placed into regular production, but that didn't keep the myth from growing. Ford did replace the Detroit Lubricator in 1934 with the Stromberg EE-1. As a side note, one of the most interesting (at least to me) files that I have ever read, was a file from Stromberg concerning individuals which brought inventions to Stromberg for additional testing. One of the units tested used an anterior thottle device (anyone ever hear of Fish). The carburetor did give a few percent more fuel economy (if I remember about 6 percent); but made significantly less power, and iced up anytime the ambient temperature was below 50 degrees. Jon.