1912Staver

Hi group, dealers are in my opinion a necessary evil with regards to the old car hobby. They perform a valuable service in that they make available project cars or parts cars that otherwise would be lost forever to the other cash buyer THE SCRAP MAN !!! High priced or not, at least you can decide if the item on offer is something you need. Once the scrap man gets it it's gone, and with the price being offered these days a lot of good stuff is being lost. I have never dealt with the business in question, and would agree that the prices being asked look to be on the high side. However the Sold archive reveals that at least some of the offerings were priced in the reasonable range. In particular the 48 Allard looked like an attractive deal. Projects like the Peerless that is the focus of this discussion are never going to make sense from a financial point of view. Only known survivor or not the car is going to be a major money pit, and therefore needs a very dedicated owner. Perhaps the new owner underestimates the scope of the job he has taken on and the project will be on the market again in a few years. With any luck the project will have advanced at least a little, and the price may be more reasonable. Otherwise there are still quite a few "lost cause" projects out there. Do some looking and please be at least one step ahead of the scrap man {the real villain of the old car hobby}. All the best Greg in Canada P.S. the European old car hobby is quite a bit different from the one in North America. Here if it's not pre 1915 {or early 30's and up}it's of relatively little interest. The 1916 to late 20's cars are a comparative bargain to European buyer's. In Europe anything pre 1925 or so is considered a true antique car and has a strong following.

Hi group, it definitely looks like a Lycoming truck engine adapted to run as a stationary power plant { could have been an industrial engine from new but truck engines are more common}. This was a popular adaption, and they were used for many different purposes. Most typically to run a sawmill or a water pump. The motor mount and all of the adapted mobile chassis looks home brewed. No doubt a lot of it started life as a part of a truck or automobile, but it has been heavily modified by the Farmer or Blacksmith who assembled it. The engine at least should be salvageable, and maybe the axle assy. All the best Greg

Thanks "Motoringicons" for your first hand opinion of the car. It sounds like the owner has a very optimistic value in mind. It makes the $250,000.00 offer seem pretty spot on. No doubt the owner got the car on the show to try to drum up a little hype surrounding it's market value. It would be interesting to see what it eventually sells for. It's still a dream car for most of us, especially needing what could be a $75,000.00 + restoration. Mercer; cars for the exclusive few when new, and even more so today. All the best Greg

Hi gang, cars of this quality are rarely for sale. This one has been in the same family for many years and is most likely going to stay in it. People who own cars like this can generaly afford them, unlike all the rest of us who can only enjoy things like Mercers as spectators. {Substitute Simplex, Stutz, Lozier, Pierce Arrow etc. as is your pleasure}. When cars like this change hands it is usually in an estate, and at auction. The $250,000.00 offer is probably about right, a nice one sold last year for about $300,000.00 so $250 from a dealer in a so so market environment is about all a person would expect. The devaluation due to restoration comments are to be taken with a grain of salt. We aren't talking about 1955 Chrysler's here. If there is a totally original good condition L head Mercer existent then it is the exception and obviously a special case apart from all the other examples. All I have to do is pick the correct lottery ticket, and this can be more than an academic discussion. All the best Greg in Canada

Hi, I have to remark that the one "brass era" part that I see at pretty much every swap meet I attend are base mount 4 and 6 cyl magnetos {not the flange mount tractor mags}. The asking prices are all over the map, and I doubt many of the $100.00 and up ones sell. Of course the desirable dual ignition Bosch mags {even incomplete/ rough ones} are rarely encountered, and when found are usually quite expensive. But the average DU-4 Bosch seems to be a hard sell at anything over $50.00 or so, maybe $75.00 for the brass bodied earlier examples. As for the others there seems to be almost no demand , except for the occasional true "brass era" {1915 or earlier manufacture} and even then only to the one in a million person that actually needs one. I only wish there was a magneto ignition engine for every magneto out there. My decades long search for all the other parts that make up an early car would have been a lot more productive. It costs pretty much the same to rebuild a Bosch DU 4 DUAL as a standard DU 4. [and virtually ANY 80 year old mag is going to need a rebuild before it can be used }. So it realy only makes sense to look for a Dual. If you are going to spend 15 or 20 years restoring a Brass car you are going to run across a reasonably priced dual sooner or later. I suspect there are probably at least a couple of spare Bosch dual or duplex units for every existent Brass car. And who knows how many of all the assorted others. When one realises how many of the surviving Brass cars are Model T Fords and therefore probably not even using a Bosch style unit magneto one begins to understand that the hobby is in no danger of running short of magnetos. all the best Greg

Hi gang; rare or not, and I know Holsman's are quite rare $85,000.00 sounds like a pretty steep price. Auto-buggy style cars as a group {Sears, IHC etc.} have survived in fairly significant numbers and as I recall usually sell for rather less. This may be an exceptional example, but I think one would have to be unusually dedicated to being a Holsman owner to consider paying so much for the privilege. Perhaps I underestimate the desirability of Holsman's and would be happy to hear a justification for such a asking price. {other than it's a free country and an individual can ask whatever he want to} All the best Greg

Hi, has anyone suggested Marion. The Radiator and cap are very close; and the name on the hubcaps, while not quite readable could say Marion. The rear drums look quite wide, which could indicate the Stutz/ Marion side by side brake arrangement. I think I can just make out the front of a full epileptic rear spring that would also support Marion. Interesting photo. All the best Greg in Canada

Hi, looks like a early 50's Allard . Hard to tell the model from this angle ,but possibly a J2. They were a British sports car that generaly used a variety of American V8's. Mostly Ford flatheads and Cadillac OHV V8's, but others as well. They were very successful in competition in the 1950's, and are quite sought after today. Hope this helps. Greg in Canada

Hi Nick, exhaust manifolds are one of those parts that most old cars seem to need eventually. Some are available reproduction, {sometimes offered by a one make club spares service} but many are not. There are three options; wait for a usable original, replace with a fabricated manifold {tube and plate welded replacement} and finally commission a new casting. The last option is the best but of course the most expensive. There are a couple of places that advertise in Hemmings etc. You might be able to find a retired pattern maker locally who can produce a pattern at a better than the going rate price, but the casting itself will need to be done by a commercial foundry. If you go this route it usually pays to get several castings made so you can sell them to others in your predicament and so recover at least some of the cost of the pattern. You would be amazed at how many custom castings have been made for the restoration of pre-war cars over the years. If it was made originally , it can be re made today. The only obstacle is the cost. P.S. yes in my opinion you are asking too much, people often look for years for certain replacement parts. Think of every part on your Chrysler to be the equivalent of 1963 max wedge parts and you will begin to get the picture. All the best, Greg in Canada

Hi Kent, and anyone else interested in the ins and outs of Teetor Hartley. My guess would be the Herschell Spillman engine is the 68 hp. listing for 1922, 23,24. Once again I imagine you have drawn the same conclusion. Anyone else out there with Teetor Hartley information, rumors or guesses? Best regards, Greg

Hi Kent, in the Standard Catalogue of American Cars Pilot is listed as using a 6 cyl. 43.5 HP. engine from 1917 to 1921 . This is probably an ALAM. "formula horsepower rating as would have been published in the yearly automobile guide. It is also probable that this indicates the same Teetor engine was used for these 5 years of Pilot automobiles. Pilot production was fairly modest at this time, 1917 is the highest at 928 cars, and 1918 the low at 575 with the others being in between. Perhaps this was considered a steady money maker for Teetor: not so low as to be uneconomical, but not too high so investment in extra equipment would be required. How it fits in with the deal with Anstead is a puzzle. Perhaps Pilot insisted the Teetor name remained on the engines even after the sale; it was after all a fairly well respected name , at least in the Indiana segment of the market. All the best Greg in Canada

I am used to both systems, but the thing I don't get is what does a 392 have to do with a Challenger? The newest thing I ever saw with a 392 Hemi was a 1958 Imperial. How can even the most half baked marketing dept. get it so wrong? Do they realy think their target market is that ignorant of the basic statistics of the ORIGIONAL Challengers? I mean they are the size of a 1970 Challenger and a half {in body thickness at least}, so shouldn't they at least offer a 639 Hemi.

Hi Kent; now that you have the final version of Teetors engine history, are you going to get an example of the first? Just kidding, any Teetor Hartley is a tremendous find. Please document the museum exhibit. As you know I am eager for any Teetor information. All the best Greg in Canada.

Yes, a 18- 20 Buick roadster is a definite possibility. The cowl is possibly the same as a touring, but the doors would have to come from a roadster. Buick touring car's are quite common, roadsters are much rarer. I have seen lots of the touring's over the years {and own two of them}, but only one or two roadsters. You could try Dean Tryon's 1916 -17 Buick owners group { a great bunch of teens Buick guys} , but there is a definite emphasis on antique Buick's rather than anything to do with hot rod's. Good luck! Greg in Canada

Looks to me like a 1918-1922 era roadster. Turtle deck would be a popular slang description. Tub usually refers to a hot rod with a touring car body, as opposed to the more common roadster based rod. Hope this helps, Greg in Canada

I agree there is a need for something better than EBay or Craigslist. Craigslist sellers are often wary of a potential buyer that they cannot meet face to face and receive cash from. Infact there was a interview with a local Police officer a couple of days ago on the local TV news advising potential Craigslist sellers to treat ANY non local inquiry as a scam. EBay has deteriorated markedly in the last year or so. Unless you are in the market for offshore aftermarket junk. The listings for genuine old car hobby market items appears to have have fallen off significantly. Perhaps it's the econamy; but for the sort of things I am looking for {mostly mid teen's parts but also 60's sports car parts}, EBay is becoming a waste of time. Lets hope that a old car hobby system evolves. There are still many somewhat incomplete/ unfinished projects out there. All the best Greg in Canada

Hi, it's a Buick model 45. 1918- 1920. The sheet metal looks savable. There are quite a a few survivors of this model, so someone might be interested in what's left. Greg in Canada

Hi, the rotary valve concept has been tried by quite a number of engine builders. Technical problems, particularly combustion deposits building up on the valve disk have been the concepts undoing. Sleeve valve engines face the same sort of problems {Knight engines, Bristol aircraft engines}. So far its' been hard to beat the poppet valve, although there have been many attempts to develop an alternative. All the best Greg

Hi everyone. definitely a Staver. I think it's probably a 1914 model {last year of Staver production}. It could be a prototype built and licenced in 1913 to test out the upcoming 1914 changes. The fact it is Lh. drive, plus the radiator shape,electric lights and the 3/4 rear springs {as opposed to fully elliptic as used by all 1912 Stavers and all but one 1913 model} all suggest 1914 . This body style doesn't show up in the 1914 Staver sales catalog, so it may be a "special" built by Dan Teetor for his own use or as a development car. Great Photo! Greg in Canada

Hi, rear spring set up and radiator are very similar to Staver Chicago. But several details are somewhat different. Both Marion and Mason also used a similar rear spring arrangement . Can you supply any other photo's? Thanks Greg in Canada

Hi group, I spotted a photo on THE OLD MOTOR photo posting site {first class site, highly recommended} which shows a very similar engine being used to power the snow blower section of a circa 1920's large self propelled snow blower. These engines are big, I have seen one near to me in British Columbia Canada. With the possible exception of Fire Trucks I doubt they were intended for road vehicles. An industrial use {such as a mine pump unit} seems like a far more likely original use. They are sure an impressive power unit, I would love to have one for my collection. I make my living as a Marine Engineer so I am used to operating and maintaining marine diesel power plants of 6000 + H.P. Even though units like this T head are small in comparison to the ones I see on the job, they are a great reminder of our industrial past. I hope it is returned to running condition. Best regards to the new owner Greg in Canada

I have generaly found the early White gas cars to be good buys. The steamers are definitely in a different league price wise. The G and GA Whites are very well built cars, but don't seem to attract the $60,000.00 + prices that most equivalent Brass cars realize. About a year or so ago one that was about 3/4 restored sold on EBay for around $12,000.00. It seemed like a very attractive price. I have seen a few other older restoration cars in the 30-40 thousand range, pretty reasonable in my opinion. Almost all that I have seen are tourings, which are not as attractive as some of the sports models from other manufactures. The body styling on the 1915 era cars was very advanced , and looks as modern as many other early 1920's cars. { not always a good thing in today's market, people usually want antique cars to look as old as possible} In my opinion they are a better buy than a similar year Cadillac or other upper middle quality car. Greg in Canada

Hi Dave and all. I notice the Overland auction ended today with a final price of $8350.00. Not the deal of a lifetime perhaps, but not outrageously high either. Should be a lot of fun for someone. They are very pretty little cars when done. Esp. the roadsters. Any chance that was you Dave , or are you still looking? Greg in Canada

Hi everyone. I agree with everything sfbeatle says. Any vintage car requires a large comitment of time, money etc. And in the case of the Brass Era cars the time component can be very large indeed. Only the Model T Ford has reasonably good "off the shelf" parts availability. Virtually anything else will require a lot of legwork on the part of the owner {or a owner with deep enough pockets to hire someone to do the legwork for him}. I am now 10 years into my own project, with probably {if I am lucky}another 10 to go. Certainly there are times I question my sanity for getting involved with such a large project. On the other hand at the end I will have a much higher quality car than I could have possibly afforded to have bought as a turnkey vehicle. And in the process I have developed my own skills conciderably. As well I have met and interacted with a great group of like minded Brass Era people who have offered a lot of advice and assistance. I just hope I am able to drive the darned thing before I need a day pass from the nurseing home to do so. If anyone of us looked at our old car hobby involvement from a "common sense" viewpoint I doubt many would be able to justify it. The hobby has changed so much from the days of finding an old relic in a barn and tinkering with it to make it run again. A lot of the same motives still remain , preserve a part of our past, do something with our own hands, etc. But the cost involved has skyrocked. There are few if any easy fix up barn finds remaining. The unrestored cars available today are generally a far more involved undertaking than the ones average old car guys took on 40 or 50 years ago. But the thing to keep in mind is that it can still be done! Not every old car needs to be a $75,000.00 ++ pro restoration. There is still room for the average Joe in the old car hobby, it just takes time, persistance, and at least some money. Greg in Canada

Hi Dave. The Overland looks like a great project. Dont get your hopes of a bargin too high however. The last one { a few months ago}, which was in more or less the same condition went for something like $10,000.00. These brass era Overlands are quite good cars , and have a lot of interest . I would definately try to pay a visit with the owner, even if it is a long drive. It is rare to find any fairly complete 1912 era project for less than $10,000.00. Overlands were very popular cars and have survived in good numbers. This car looks like a great candidate for a 1st. brass era car. Unfortunately there are probably quite a number of other would be purchasers that are thinking the same thing. Good luck! Greg in Canada