Understanding interior lights on a 65

[alini]

Im wringing out my electrical before I do anything else.  I still have dash panels removed and no seats, so getting around the interior is alot easier.  I have some issues and I think the problem is with the replacement door switches, but I am not familiar with how the car works to begin with so I dont know what to expect here.

 

When I open the door, all four lights (two sail panel and two console) lights come on right?  Or are their more?  Does the one above the glove box come on?  Does the one at the rear of the console come on?  I was under the assumption that those are switch driven only, not connected to the door.

 

Also my headlight switch doesnt seem to have a detent for the interior lights, is that only through the switch above the radio?

 

Can someone clarify?

 

The joys of building a car you dont know how it is supposed to work

[1965rivgs]

Im wringing out my electrical before I do anything else.  I still have dash panels removed and no seats, so getting around the interior is alot easier.  I have some issues and I think the problem is with the replacement door switches, but I am not familiar with how the car works to begin with so I dont know what to expect here.

 

When I open the door, all four lights (two sail panel and two console) lights come on right?  Or are their more?  Does the one above the glove box come on?  Does the one at the rear of the console come on?  I was under the assumption that those are switch driven only, not connected to the door.

 

Also my headlight switch doesnt seem to have a detent for the interior lights, is that only through the switch above the radio?

 

Can someone clarify?

 

The joys of building a car you dont know how it is supposed to work

The glovebox light and the rear console light (actually, all courtesy lights in total) should come on when opening the door. Turning the headlight switch should illuminate the sail panel lights only. The dash switch should control the front console lights and the glovebox light. The switch at the rear of the console controls the rear console light.

There are three courtesy light circuits whose ground can be found both at the door jamb switches and at one of three switches. If you ground each wire at the door jamb you can check each circuit. Each of the three switches grounds one of the three ground wires.

  Tom

[alini]

I tied my three grounds together to a common wire on a 'newer' model door switch and I think thats my problem.  The power for each light is backfeeding the other circuits.  With no power applied and the car sitting with doors shut I have a continuity between the positive battery terminal and Ground, until I pull the 'Dome' fuse.  Looking at the wiring diagram that circuit is seperate at the door switch (the switch shows TWO connecting points on them in the diagram), so I am wondering, even though the switch is a ground if it in fact has two separate circuits in it.

Today I am going to undo my wiring on the switch and ground each wire independently and see what that gets me.

[msdminc]

Chris

If you still have the old switches I can rebuild them for you. I advertise in the Riview I rebuild 1st gen Riviera door jamb switches. I replace the sliding contact with a beryllium copper much longer lasting slide on all switches and typically can get almost any core to working order - replacing other parts on the switch

I also have a few complete switches if you are interested and don't have cores.

Contact me if you decide to go this way.

Edited May 23, 2015 by msdminc (see edit history)

[alini]

I have one switch, its all bounded up and has no continuity through it.  The other fell apart when I took it out and I dont have the pieces anymore.  If you can confirm my suspicion that their are in fact two circuits within the switch then I guess I have no choice huh

[msdminc]

Sent PM

 

Rock On

 

gord

[RivNut]

I have one switch, its all bounded up and has no continuity through it.  The other fell apart when I took it out and I dont have the pieces anymore.  If you can confirm my suspicion that their are in fact two circuits within the switch then I guess I have no choice huh

There are three circuits within the door jamb switch.  They're described in Tom's post.  12 volts go directly to the lamps,  the switches are on the ground wire side.  You can turn them all on when you open the door(s) or one at a time at the headlight / courtesy / rear console switches by grounding the circuit at that switch rather than the door jamb.

 

The same switch is found in other full sized Buicks from the era.

 

Ed

[Seafoam65]

I tied my three grounds together to a common wire on a 'newer' model door switch and I think thats my problem.  The power for each light is backfeeding the other circuits.  With no power applied and the car sitting with doors shut I have a continuity between the positive battery terminal and Ground, until I pull the 'Dome' fuse.  Looking at the wiring diagram that circuit is seperate at the door switch (the switch shows TWO connecting points on them in the diagram), so I am wondering, even though the switch is a ground if it in fact has two separate circuits in it.

Today I am going to undo my wiring on the switch and ground each wire independently and see what that gets me.

               You didn't state how new of a door switch you are using. You can use a later  model switch and tie all three ground wires

together and that will work fine provided you don't have the type of switch that requires a ground wire to ground the case of the switch. Some of the later model switches have two prongs, one for a ground wire to ground the switch and the other for the wires

that ground the courtesy lights. This type of switch is what OPGI sells in their catalog, and if you run a ground wire on them to

ground the switch and hook all three wires that ground the courtesy lamps to the other prong, it will work. There are some two prong switches that were used on some sixties GM cars that are identical to the Riviera three prong switch only they have two prongs. On those switches, you don't need to run a ground wire to the switch, you need only tie one of the three wires to one of the other wires

before plugging the wires in to the two prongs. These switches get their own ground by a metal terminal touching the metal on the hole that it snaps into. I've got one of these nos two prong switches on my right door and it works fine.

[alini]

The switch I got off of Ebay, they ground through the case on a single terminal.  I tied all three wires together and soldered them to the single connection on the switch.  Having it set up this way nothing ever came on.  I was doing some continuity checks and accidently identified that my positive battery terminal had continuity with the center console.  So I disconnected the center console at its large connector and the sail panels worked, but they stayed on all the time, even with the door shut.  So the only thing I can think of is they are grounding backwards to the door switch and out to something else in the electrical system.  Im working with Gordon who will rebuild my original and supply me a second switch so I can set the car to factory correct before I try troubleshooting anything else.  Something in the 'Dome' circuit isnt right because once I pull that fuse I dont have the drain through the system I had.

Edited May 23, 2015 by alini (see edit history)

[1965rivgs]

I have one switch, its all bounded up and has no continuity through it.  The other fell apart when I took it out and I dont have the pieces anymore.  If you can confirm my suspicion that their are in fact two circuits within the switch then I guess I have no choice huh

As stated in my reply to your question there are THREE courtesy light circuits whose ground side can be found at the door jamb switches.

  Tom

[1965rivgs]

               You didn't state how new of a door switch you are using. You can use a later  model switch and tie all three ground wires

together and that will work fine provided you don't have the type of switch that requires a ground wire to ground the case of the switch. Some of the later model switches have two prongs, one for a ground wire to ground the switch and the other for the wires

that ground the courtesy lights. This type of switch is what OPGI sells in their catalog, and if you run a ground wire on them to

ground the switch and hook all three wires that ground the courtesy lamps to the other prong, it will work. There are some two prong switches that were used on some sixties GM cars that are identical to the Riviera three prong switch only they have two prongs. On those switches, you don't need to run a ground wire to the switch, you need only tie one of the three wires to one of the other wires

before plugging the wires in to the two prongs. These switches get their own ground by a metal terminal touching the metal on the hole that it snaps into. I've got one of these nos two prong switches on my right door and it works fine.

If you tie all three circuits together at the door jamb switches the individual switches for each circuit, the dash, headlight switch and console switch will not function as intended. Each of these switches will provide a ground for all three courtesy lamp circuits at the same time if the wires are tied together at the door jamb switch.

Tom

[1965rivgs]

The switch I got off of Ebay, they ground through the case on a single terminal.  I tied all three wires together and soldered them to the single connection on the switch.  Having it set up this way nothing ever came on.  I was doing some continuity checks and accidently identified that my positive battery terminal had continuity with the center console.  So I disconnected the center console at its large connector and the sail panels worked, but they stayed on all the time, even with the door shut.  So the only thing I can think of is they are grounding backwards to the door switch and out to something else in the electrical system.  Im working with Gordon who will rebuild my original and supply me a second switch so I can set the car to factory correct before I try troubleshooting anything else.  Something in the 'Dome' circuit isnt right because once I pull that fuse I dont have the drain through the system I had.

There should be continuity between the hot on the battery and the courtesy light circuit feeding the console. Voltage travels from the battery thru the bulbs and is grounded by the switches. If you have lights which are staying on something is providing a ground for those lights. Sure it is not the headlight switch? Do you have DUAL contact bubs in all the courtesy light sockets?

  Tom

[alini]

Im pretty sure its the door switch thats the issue.  I confirmed with Gordon that the factory switch keeps the circuits seperated until you open the door, then contact with the ground is made.  So having them all joined prior to the switch is causing the issue.  Now thats in theory and until I swap out the switches I wont know for sure, but there really is no reason to dig deeper until I get the switches back to factory arrangement.  So the interior lights are shelved for now.  All the exteriors are working and tomorrow will be fixing my drivers window which is binding up about a inch from the bottom.  I think I know what its hitting on so it should be a quick fix.  The headlight motor went out this morning as well to a guy for a rebuild.  So within the next two weeks my electrical system will be completed.

[1965rivgs]

In theory, joining the circuits is not an issue until a ground is made available...somewhere.

  Tom

[Eric's.64.Superwildcat]

Im pretty sure its the door switch thats the issue.  I confirmed with Gordon that the factory switch keeps the circuits seperated until you open the door, then contact with the ground is made.  So having them all joined prior to the switch is causing the issue.  Now thats in theory and until I swap out the switches I wont know for sure, but there really is no reason to dig deeper until I get the switches back to factory arrangement.  So the interior lights are shelved for now.  All the exteriors are working and tomorrow will be fixing my drivers window which is binding up about a inch from the bottom.  I think I know what its hitting on so it should be a quick fix.  The headlight motor went out this morning as well to a guy for a rebuild.  So within the next two weeks my electrical system will be completed.

 

Chris, where are they joined "prior to the switch"?  If they are joined prior to the switch it must be a modification.  Do you have a photo?  

 

Also, is your jamb switch the original switch or aftermarket?  

[alini]

As I stated earlier, the switch only had a common single post, so all three wires were joined at that connection.  I had read in this forum that others had done it and it worked fine.  I confirmed recently that the door switch has separate circuits in it and this method will not work.

[RivNut]

All your doing is supplying ground to the three light systems 1) sail panel and side console, 2) courtesy light (glove box), and 3) rear console.  Those are three separate systems.  Buick put three separate wires to the jamb switch to coincide with the three systems.  Tying the grounds together at the jamb should have no bearing on what takes place.  Each system should stand alone with the doors closed and all should come on when the door is opened, whether that be three separate wires, or all three bundled into one.

 

Ed

[coOverwatch]

Im wringing out my electrical before I do anything else.  I still have dash panels removed and no seats, so getting around the interior is alot easier.  I have some issues and I think the problem is with the replacement door switches, but I am not familiar with how the car works to begin with so I dont know what to expect here.

 

When I open the door, all four lights (two sail panel and two console) lights come on right?  Or are their more?  Does the one above the glove box come on?  Does the one at the rear of the console come on?  I was under the assumption that those are switch driven only, not connected to the door.

 

Also my headlight switch doesnt seem to have a detent for the interior lights, is that only through the switch above the radio?

 

Can someone clarify?

 

The joys of building a car you dont know how it is supposed to work

 

yes!! the joys of building a car you have never worked on before has become the source of some frustration for me lately.

Knowledge is power... just think how fast the next one will be.

[Eric's.64.Superwildcat]

All your doing is supplying ground to the three light systems 1) sail panel and side console, 2) courtesy light (glove box), and 3) rear console.  Those are three separate systems.  Buick put three separate wires to the jamb switch to coincide with the three systems.  Tying the grounds together at the jamb should have no bearing on what takes place.  Each system should stand alone with the doors closed and all should come on when the door is opened, whether that be three separate wires, or all three bundled into one.

 

Ed

Actually, joining the three separate wires at any point (including at the jamb switch) *does* make a difference.  It will cause the the three separate light circuits (i.e. dome light, courtesy light, and floor light) to *all* turn on when any *single* switch is activated.  This is different from the original design which had each switch control just one of the three lighting systems, and only the door jamb switch would activate all three.  

 

This is one of the reasons Gordon's service of rebuilding original door jamb switches is so valuable to the community.  

 

Chris, for original operation it is my opinion that taking Gordon up on his offer for original jamb switches (even if you don't have a core to trade in) is the most attractive option.  

[Seafoam65]

                Very interesting topic. I never realized that only the map light under the dash was hooked to the courtesy light switch

from the factory. The way my car is wired now, the courtesy light switch turns on all lights  inside the car other than the light at the

rear of the console. Actually, I prefer that all these lights come on with the courtesy light switch so I can actually see something inside

the car at night when I flip on the switch, so I will leave my car wired the way it is, with two of the three circuits wired together.

[1965rivgs]

                Very interesting topic. I never realized that only the map light under the dash was hooked to the courtesy light switch

from the factory. The way my car is wired now, the courtesy light switch turns on all lights  inside the car other than the light at the

rear of the console. Actually, I prefer that all these lights come on with the courtesy light switch so I can actually see something inside

the car at night when I flip on the switch, so I will leave my car wired the way it is, with two of the three circuits wired together.

From the factory the courtesy light switch controls the glovebox light and the side console lights. If all three wires are joined to the door jamb switch in your car the rear console light should also come on when you open the door or turn the courtesy light switch on.

  Tom

[Seafoam65]

                  I only have two joined together.....I had to  combine two of the three into one

in order to use the nos double prong switch I used.  The rear console light is still by itself on

the new door jamb switch.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Seafoam65 (see edit history)