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'10 Hupp drive train repairs...


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#1 Tom400CFI

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 02:41 AM

I've begun working on some repairs to the Hupp's drive train. I say "repairs" because this is absolutely NOT any kind of "restoration" here. Just as if my Chevy Silverado need work due to mileage/wear, I'd repair the worn item...not restore the whole truck, so it is in this case, with the Hupp.

The rear is pretty much shot; the ring and pinion "stripped" and I replaced w/a mismatched set to make a tour. When doing so, I observed that the carrier bearings were worn, allowing the carrier to float around, the axles are worn down where the bearings run, the taper is wron from a loose wheel running on it, the brakes are worn (the mechanism, not the friction material), friction material saturated w/oil, and on and on. Its flat worn out.

The trans developed a problem in which the Drive (2nd) gear wore through the reverse fork linkage pin. So something is wrong there. Something is wrong w/the clutch release bearing/bushing because pushing on the clutch pedal slows the car faster than the oil-soaked brakes do. Again, a lot of miles worth of wear here.

Here are the first couple pics of disassembly...
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SO far, I can't get the trans to separate from the crank case. I've tried a variety of techniques, and it hasn't budged at all. So, the engine/trans assy is coming out next, which will allow me better access and less risk of damage to anything in the process. More pics to follow, as I move along.

#2 30 Hupp

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 02:07 AM

Sounds like you have your work cut out for you!
Good Luck!
Keep us posted on your progress.
Dale

#3 trimacar

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 03:31 AM

If you push the clutch in, and the car slows, it means the three bushings between the engine block and transmission (which ride on the shaft) are worn or worn out.

There are new gears being made for the rear end of Model 20 Hupps, about $1500 per set, ring and pinion.

The spider gears can be replaced easily with Model T gears, I did mine and it was simple, so simple that one might think Hupp used the same supplier or machine shop as Mr. Ford.

The transmission has a main gear at the rear, which rides in a large bushing, and contains a small bushing for the main transmission shaft. These are usually worn and must be rebuilt, or transmission won't mesh correctly.

There are also numerous adjustments to the transmission and linkage which must be correct.

Simple cars, but lots of stuff that wears out. Let me know if you need further help David.Coco@hphood.com
David Coco
Winchester Va.
(early upholstery, will discuss
2015 projects)
1910 Model 20 Hupmobile runabout
1910 Buick Model 16 toy tonneau
1910 Hudson Model 20 fore door roadster
1927 Dodge fast four convertible coupe
1931 Chevrolet tudor
1931 Pierce Arrow Model 43 phaeton
1937 Cord standard phaeton
1938 Packard Super 8 convertible coupe
1953 Chevrolet 5 window pickup
1967 Lincoln Continental convertible
1969 Cutlass convertible
1971 Pontiac Firebird Esprit

#4 KenHupp20

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 02:19 PM

Tom ,glad to see the work going on.Please post some photos (1,000 words per ea.) of the "problems". Will be glad to try and assist.
Ken

#5 trimacar

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 03:09 PM

Ken is a veritable font of information, he's helped me tremendously on my Hupp, and most of what I know (about Hupps) I learned from him.......and we have many thousands of words of emails between us!

#6 KenHupp20

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 03:53 PM

David , thank you but I believe it's the other way 'round !
Your input and vast knowledge has been a great help to me .
Thanks, Ken

#7 trimacar

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 07:00 PM

Here are some pictures of the washers, I don't think Ken will mind, these are pictures he sent me, and guided me in setting up the front of trans to engine.....

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David Coco
Winchester Va.
(early upholstery, will discuss
2015 projects)
1910 Model 20 Hupmobile runabout
1910 Buick Model 16 toy tonneau
1910 Hudson Model 20 fore door roadster
1927 Dodge fast four convertible coupe
1931 Chevrolet tudor
1931 Pierce Arrow Model 43 phaeton
1937 Cord standard phaeton
1938 Packard Super 8 convertible coupe
1953 Chevrolet 5 window pickup
1967 Lincoln Continental convertible
1969 Cutlass convertible
1971 Pontiac Firebird Esprit

#8 KenHupp20

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 11:29 PM

No problem David.
Tom a word of caution removing the transmission from the engine ; it must be pulled straight back for several inches as the clutch drum assembly(seen in the above photo,on right) fits over the end of the crankshaft, and makes the rear main bearing . The bronze washers shown in the photos make up quite a bit of "suction" with some oil in them.

#9 Tom400CFI

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 05:35 PM

Thanks a BUNCH for the replies and info, gentlemen. I apologize for leaving you all hanging; I've been sick for over a week (!), which is the worst spell I've even been through. I'm finally coming out of it now, but obviously, nothing has happened on the car since I posted.

Will post pics of the next session which will hopefully be tomorrow, if I continue to feel better.

#10 Dean_H.

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 07:09 PM

Tom,
Bad deal on the sickness, glad to hear you are getting over it. It would have been easy to patch your car enough to make the next tour. Way to go on fixing it right.
I have a basket case '12 Hupp, and your pictures are helpful for me. Thanks for posting. One question, in your second picture it looks like there's a brace or ? behind the seat. What is that?

#11 Tom400CFI

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 07:21 PM

One question, in your second picture it looks like there's a brace or ? behind the seat. What is that?

The black thing sticking off the left side of the top of the seat? If that, that is the support for the top's frame when the top is down.

#12 KenHupp20

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 10:53 PM

Tom, Sorry to hear you 've been under the weather. Glad you're on the mend.
Dean, when are "we" going to start on your little Hupp ? David (trimacar) and I have been through most of what you and Tom will be dealing with , and glad to help if we can .
Ken

#13 Dean_H.

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 06:09 AM

Thanks Ken. Seeing Tom working on his Hupp 20, got me thinking about it. Hopefully I can get going on it soon.

#14 Tom400CFI

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 04:46 AM

Well, I made a little progress today. Here are some pics and vids for your viewing pleasure...

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This is just a vid of the engine, here. Nothing too special...
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Here are some close-up shots of the clutch thrust surfaces. I don't know what they are supposed to look like, but these look pretty worn to me....
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Here is a vid of the trans, and what is wrong with the thing....


Here are a couple shots and vids of the rear....
http://www.youtube.com/v/i5pRkTjMwCo

This video shows the slop in the carrier bearings, and the resulting pinion movement...



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http://i176.photobuc...61/IMG_6413.jpg

http://i176.photobuc...61/IMG_6415.jpg

http://i176.photobuc...61/IMG_6420.jpg

Look at the amount of color/metal in this oil! A wobbly carrier, and poorly meshing ring&pinion are the culprit, I'd say. This oil has roughly 500 miles on it. A lot, for an antique car...but not enough for this level of contamination.
http://i176.photobuc...61/IMG_6422.jpg

Edited by Tom400CFI, 23 February 2011 - 01:16 AM.


#15 KenHupp20

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 03:36 PM

Hi Tom , you've been busy , good work. Was that a piece of metal you pulled out of the back of the engine in the video ?
Interesting your car had three bronze in front of the clutch drum, the book calls for the middle one to be fiber, but I would think bronze would be O.K. (David,your input ?).What is important is the correct distance from the back of the engine so the clutch will operate correctly.
I think you should open the clutch drum assembly ( caution here ! needs to be done in a press). The bushing inside will be worn and cause a lot of grief ( I could write a whole chapter on that !) .
I believe the drive gear is held in position by the shaft so those bushings front & back are very important.
Look forward to you opening up the rear axle.
Do you have a parts book ?
good luck ,Ken

#16 KenHupp20

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 03:43 PM

Here is a pic of the front bushing. The "step" or counter bore is important.
This bushing had too much play, I had a new one made.

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#17 Tom400CFI

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 05:01 PM

Hi Tom , you've been busy , good work. Was that a piece of metal you pulled out of the back of the engine in the video ?

I don't know. It looked like a piece of cotter pin, to me.


I think you should open the clutch drum assembly ( caution here ! needs to be done in a press). The bushing inside will be worn and cause a lot of grief ( I could write a whole chapter on that !) .

Will do, and have a look.


I believe the drive gear is held in position by the shaft so those bushings front & back are very important.

Are you saying that the transmission "mainshaft"/input shaft is what is supposed to locate the "hi" gear w/in the transmission? If so, I'd say that the clutch needs to be shimmed rearward, to hold that shaft back.


Look forward to you opening up the rear axle.
Do you have a parts book ?
good luck ,Ken

I do! :)



The bushing in the pic, in the post above....that is the "fron bushing"...front of what?

-Tom

#18 KenHupp20

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 05:32 PM

The bushing in the photo is for the front of the main shaft ( it is located in the front of the clutch drum). Once you pull the shaft out of the clutch assembly you'll see the shoulder on it that corresponds with the "step" in the bushing. That step may be worn and /or you may need to space the clutch drum towards the rear a bit.

#19 trimacar

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 08:03 PM

Hi- the three bronze bushings should work, I put mine together with the fiber one in the middle as Ken states. These act as a thrust bearing when you put the clutch in, so they have to slip....

tTe other thing to check while you have the transmission out is the rear bushings in the trans.

There are two. One large one in the rear of the housing, into which the large main gear fits. Mine was totally worn out.

The other bushing is actually in the main gear itself, a small bushing that holds the rear of the main transmission shaft.

Both of these have to be in good condition to allow transmission gears to mesh and shift correctly.

Very simple transmission, easy to take apart, just take notes and pictures so you know where all the set screws go back!

Good luck with your rebuild.....
David Coco
Winchester Va.
(early upholstery, will discuss
2015 projects)
1910 Model 20 Hupmobile runabout
1910 Buick Model 16 toy tonneau
1910 Hudson Model 20 fore door roadster
1927 Dodge fast four convertible coupe
1931 Chevrolet tudor
1931 Pierce Arrow Model 43 phaeton
1937 Cord standard phaeton
1938 Packard Super 8 convertible coupe
1953 Chevrolet 5 window pickup
1967 Lincoln Continental convertible
1969 Cutlass convertible
1971 Pontiac Firebird Esprit

#20 Tom400CFI

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 11:57 PM

I brought the clutch into work today, so I could use the press...and pulled it apart. I do not see the bushing in the pic above. Also, I can't figure out how to get the discs off the clutch hub. The rear most one comes right off, but the first one forward, that is splined to the hub, rather than the shell, won't come off, because the thrust surface is preventing it from moving off the hub.

I was shocked to see a BALL bearing, thrust bearing. Weird that they'd use that nice ball bearing inside, but not on the clutch housing-to-crank case or the release fork-to-clutch housing surfaces. Anyway, here are some more pix...

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HERE, you can see the second from the rear most disc, unable to come off as it is hitting the thrust/release surface....
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HERE is a pic of some clips?
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And then these "plugs"? What are they for? I can see no purpose for these things...
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EDIT: I figured out what the "plugs" are for; adusting the spring tension on the clutch, as the plates wear. The spring seats on those "plugs", so screwing them IN, would increase the tension on the spring and plates.

Edited by Tom400CFI, 25 February 2011 - 12:14 AM.





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