Tom400CFI

'10 Hupp drive train repairs...

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Hi Ken and Tom, sorry I got your names mixed.

I used Timken tapered roller bearings for the dif. carrier. No.28682 with cup No.28623. Pre loading adjustment is done with any washer shims as required behind the bearings in their housing and then fine adjustment by removing the grub screws in the dif. housing (for drifting out the bearings) and replacing them with square head studs with lock nuts that press against the bearings or shim washers.

Yes of course, my clutch does not have the adjustment either, I forgot because as a temporary measure I used a later model engine and gearbox. I am currently working on the original power unit to replace that and get my 100 year plaque. My car is No.5208, probably made around August/September 1910 but restored as a 1910 season and not 1911 season car. i.e.painted red instead of blue with five leaf front springs, original 1910 axle with no spring seat and aluminium hub caps on the wheels. It has the small brake drums and non adjustable torque tube so getting the preload on those bearings was a trifle challenging.

In case you are interested the Torrington bearings are AXK4565 + thin pressure washers to fill the 7/32 inch gap between clutch drum and crankcase (check this gap, bearing in mind wear on the crankcase) and AXK4065 for internal Torrington bearing behind the clutch spring (if required) with pressure plates LS 4060 & AS4060. From memory this set up obviates the problem with the shoulder on the brass bush as it fits around it (However my memory is playing tricks on me now).

Good luck with the work, Tom.

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Thanks guys. I have not progressed since my last report, but the info above is fantastic. Thanks for the part numbers. I had planned on replacing the clutch bushings with a roller thrust bearing, and the differential carrier bearings w/tapered rollers...so good to know someone has done that and it worked out.

I hope to move along this coming weekend, and if so, I'll post more pics.

Ken, my factory dif carrier bearings look nothing like yours at all. I will post pics...

-Tom

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Hey guys. in response to some earlier posts about ring and pinions, any information that I could get would be extremely helpful. It's clear that I need a R&P -you can see just by looking at the pictures. Drawings woudl be fantastic, and actual parts woudl be even better.

-Tom

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Hi- contact Don Smarker, dsmarker@cox.net, 785-2334040. He makes the gears you need for the Model 20. Its 11 tooth pinion to 48 tooth ring gear, so a little low geared and you won't get the speed that a 4:1 ratio would give you (that's what mine has, I think there was a 3.5:1 ration available for flat country).

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That is awesome info. I will try contacting him. The 48/11 is a 4.36:1 ratio. I'm pretty sure that I currently have a 4.50:1 in there right now, but I will have to count and check.

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Your current ratio should be stamped on the torque tube, offhand I can't remember which end.....

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That is awesome info. I will try contacting him. The 48/11 is a 4.36:1 ratio. I'm pretty sure that I currently have a 4.50:1 in there right now, but I will have to count and check.

You would be right about 4.5:1 dif ratio. Most of the later Model 20s were fitted with that ratio. Early ones were 4:1 and the torpedo was 3.5:1 which makes for a more exciting car! Touring car had 4.8:1 ratio.

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I think it originally had a 4.50:1, but I just took it apart, counted teeth, and it currently has a 48/11...a 4.36:1. Those gears are what I was able to scab together after it broke a pinion a couple years ago.

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Dial-up warning! Here are more pics, these of the rear disassembly.

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YOU can see here that my carrier ran on ball bearings. I have no idea if this is correct or not, but if it IS, watch out when you split the case; balls will go everywhere if you're not careful!

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Mine had 36 balls, total.

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Here you can see a couple shots of the races, diff carrier, etc.

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Here is an "uh-oh"! I can't believe that this didn't reek havoc!

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Here you can see the end of the axle shaft is in bad shape. I don't know if it would be better to build it up (weld) and turn it back down, or have new shafts made...

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This race is flaking apart...and also lose on the carrier assy.

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Taking the ring gear off...

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Here is the diff, coming apart...

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Here is a pretty beat-up ring gear.

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Here are some pics of the torque Tube. I can't figure out how to get the thing apart. When I took the access "plugs" out -the ones that allow access to the front U-joint, I found another "Uh-oh". Yikes...

IMG_6467.jpg

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I guess those are the only pics I took of the TT, but I removed the clamping bolt and I can spin the forward section -I guess you'd call it the U-joint housing?, but I can neither slide it down the tub, nor pull it up/forward. I also removed the pin that should retain the u-joint to the drive shaft, and now the joint feels very slightly loose on the shaft...but I can't get it off. Or even begin to slide it off the shaft. Any ideas?

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The U-joint assembly is, if I remember correctly, both pinned and keyed to the pinion shaft. The pinion is not a separate gear mounted to a shaft, but rather a gear cut into the end of the shaft, it's all one piece. Thus, it only comes apart from the front, or the end with the universal joint.

Once the pin is out, it's a press fit, so you'll have to hold the tube in a large vise or other constraint, and with a drift tap the universal joint off. The other option is to be able to grab the front of the universal joint and pull, but that's easier said than done, and may damage the joint.

Was the pin loose, was that the one picture when you took the plug out? It's a tapered pin, if I remember correctly, and was then peened on the small end to hold in place.

Ken, you may remember this assembly better than I do, chime in if I described it incorrectly.

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The U-joint assembly is, if I remember correctly, both pinned and keyed to the pinion shaft. The pinion is not a separate gear mounted to a shaft, but rather a gear cut into the end of the shaft, it's all one piece. Thus, it only comes apart from the front, or the end with the universal joint.
Yep, that is all correct. i assumed that when I pulled the pin (the rest of the way out, YES, that pic was of the pin, almost 1/2 way out as it was when I removed the plugs!), the joint would slide off the shaft. Nope. Thanks for the reply. :)

-Tom

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Hi Tom , Nice to see the progress report. You sure did have two big Uh -ohs !

No need to take the torque tube apart as David ( trimacar) mentioned. You'll need to convince the u-joint to come off. I did more putting together than taking apart, but I'd soak it good first overnite at least. I'm told a 50:50 mix of auto transmission fluid & acetone is pretty good , but everybody has a favorite. Maybe a slide hammer if you have one and can get a bite on the u-joint, or I think I used two prys in the plug holes and just catch the edge of the holes of that pin that fell out( being mindfull of the threads ,of course.

You also might try prying under the pinion gear at the other end , but you'd be fighting both the u-joint and getting the rear bearing out of the bore. Of course I soak that end too.

And I 'm sure you know to use some heat if nothing is budging.

Have you made any further progress in the tranny ?

Did that bolt in the differential break in the middle or just under the head. DId you find the other piece ? Or did it get ground up ?

Later, Ken

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Thanks for the advice on getting the Ujoint off. I'll give 'er a whirl.

That broken bolt broke just under the head. The head of the bold was still intact....I don't know how.

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I didn't explain it well I guess, wasn't suggesting taking the torque tube apart...Ken, you just have a better way with words! Many thanks again for the seat patterns, getting the upholstery finished soon, it's all sewed up.......

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You know don't you, that the universal housing screws onto the torque tube. Yes there is a key on the end of the drive shaft where it attaches to the universal.

Loctite Freeze and Release is marvellous stuff for getting things undone. It comes in a pressure pack and you don't need to spray on much.

My dif. ring gear was a lot worse than yours Tom, with half teeth sheared off. I took it to a gear expert and he told me it would work fine like that. Anyway I used the T Model Ford internals in the end.

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You were certainly due for an overhaul on this differential.

Your comment on building up the axle shaft with weld caught my attention. I did that exact thing on a '78 Vette I owned way back when. Not long after making the repair the axle broke off. Evidently the arc welding made it brittle.

There's a system for an acetylene torch that I've had better luck with. It sprays powdered metal onto the part with the flame going. Spin the shaft on the lathe while building it up for an even layer. I've used this method with good results, as you don't need to heat the part so much.

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There is another option as well. I have straight axles and there was too much play. I took the axles and the hubs to a precision grinding company ( I live out in the sticks ,and there was one 10 miles away!) they ground enough to true them up,then sent them out to be hard chrome plated, then back to the grinder. I had them go in inboard enough for a new surface for the seal & wheel bearings. Expensive, but perfect.

Ken

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Interesting, hadn't thought of that, mine has straight rear axles too, and it's up in the 5800 serial number, so they were fairly late in 1910 still doing straight (not tapered) axles.

And no, I didn't realize the universal housing was screwed to torque tube, thought it was just riveted.

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Intereting comments here.

Mine is serial number 3808 I believe and has the tapered axles. I'm understaning from your posts that taper axles came later?

Also, my u-joint housing is clamped to the torque tube, not threaded on. You can see how it clamps in one of the pictures.

-Tom

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I have no idea, maybe the tapered axles were earlier. There's no doubt that mine is original, however, in the 5800 range, with straight axles no taper.

Anyone know when they changed, one way or the other?

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One would think straight axles first then tapered, same with rivited ends on the torque tube ,vs. clamp type. I'll do a bit of looking ,see if I can find dates on the changes.There was a change in the type of radius rod clamps at some time also .

Ken

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You guys know WAY more about this stuff than I do.

Here are a couple more pics of front end stuff...

The spindles are different from each other. Not earth shattering...but

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Other side...

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Here is the left one again. Clearly been damaged and welded on in the past...and not very well done, either, I might add.

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Now I don't get what these things are. I THOUGHT they were wheel seals, until I cleaned them up and saw that 1. there is not rubber, and 2. the are THICK...not stamped steel like a wheel seal normally is...

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This one is "caved in" or pushed in too much to get the balls out. I applied pressure to them w/a seal remover and they wouldn't budge. I didn't want to try harder, until I understood their purpose. I'm guessing that it's a dust/small animals seal, but not sure.

IMG_5283.jpg

-Tom

Edited by Tom400CFI (see edit history)

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Let me enlighten you about the torque tube first. Early production were riveted at both ends with part Nos. 388B dif end, and 397B UV end (B stands for Model B). Sometime In 1911 they changed to screw on with a clamp on the UV housing but the clamp appeared on the casting without a bolt hole before they were made to screw on, parts 388 and 397. I have all three variations in my collection. Model C followed Model B and Model G 1913 with a cowl followed that in the runabout style cars.

Rear axles were straight part no.341B until sometime in 1911 when they were made tapered part 341 for a slightly different wheel hub 972 replacing 972B. I didn't know about the straight axles when I had new axles and hubs made, and machined old type 1910 hubs with tapers. The fitter and turner told me he had never seen or made such long tapers in his life before and insisted something was wrong. Then when I bought an unrestored January 1911 Model B car we found out the truth, but I got my tapers which are more reliable! Just thought you would be interested.

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You are correct about the seals on the wheels. They were thick felt held in to the wheeh hub with a pressed on steel cover and running on the bearing still on the stub axle. Lever these caps off by hooking them out with a screw driver on the inside next to the felt, and straighten them with a light hammer if they get bent in the process.

I would be worried if a stub axle has been welded back on. It sounds as though you might have to get a new one fabricated out of steel and ground down to look like the original. Alternatively have new ones cast in C5 steel which is what I did using the old ones for patterns. I slid a piece of PVC pipe over the spindles to cast them bigger for machining back to size.

By the way you may be able to use Timken tapered bearings in place of the ball bearings. The nuts are left and right hand threaded same as T Fords.

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