Tom400CFI

'10 Hupp drive train repairs...

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When you re-assemble the back end, use roll pins in place of the solid pins on the sliding shackle bar which were riveted in and devilishly difficult to get if you need to pull it down again. I use roll pins on the brake levers as well. They may be scorned by purists but my car is for rallying and not exclusively for show. 6000 miles driven, some of it on dusty corrugated roads proves the reliablity of what I have done. That includes using air filters to keep dust out of the engine.

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I looked at the Bill Cuthbert dating identification chart ( c. 1971)

for the rear axle shafts ;

1909 Straight ends w/ keys & pins

1910 Tapered ends w/ keys & pins

1911 Tapered ends w/ Keys & nuts

1912 Tapered ends w/ keys & nuts.

Of course repairs done years ago and restorations may have changed things along the way .

A few other tid-bits ;

for 1911 a separate cooling fan made available "for hot climates" *

and the three "tension adjusting plugs" added to the clutch hub.

mid 1911 curved dash changed to straight top radiator shell changed from brass to painted.

Edgar may have some additional items to add.

* I have some ideas regarding this additional fan topic. Will address that later in another thread.

Ken

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Bill Cuthbert certainly knows Hupps. Interesting data Ken. Thanks for posting.

Another update for whom ever is interested. I got the rest of the rear completely apart, spent two days driving around the greater SLC area (and making calls) to find a machine shop that could help me with the work that I want done. I was shocked at how difficult that was. "We only do engines". Yeah...you HAVE all the tools to help me...but you don't want to spend the time to set up (and bill me for it). Kind of lame. I finally found two shops who can do the work that I need done, and of those, only one can do it in the time frame that I am limited to. I DID have good luck with Page Brake for re-lining the brake shoes; 2 days, and $35/shoe. A relative bargain, compared to the rest of the project!

Tomorrow, I am going to figure out a plan for bearings and seals, then head to the machine shop for media blasting, machining and general reconditioning of the axle housing and shafts.

Couple questions:

1. One machine shop told me that the rear wheel bearing design is not intended to support the axle shaft....with precision. I can slide the shaft into the bearing, then shake the shaft up and down about 1/16". The are telling me that is "normal" for that style/era roller bearing. Is it? To have any hope of sealing the axle shaft and not soak the brakes w/gear oil, I can't have the shaft moving around that much. I need a wheel/axle bearing that supports the axle shaft well.

2. Oil Drain plugs. The axle housing has no provisions for draining the oil! There is one plug at about the 10 o'clock position, and one at about the 8 o'clock...but none at the 6 o'clock! How is one to drain the oil?? Jack the front of the car up about 6' from what I can tell.

3. Rear Wheel Hubs. Can I remove the rear wheel hubs to get the taper reamed to match the fresh taper on the axles...w/o jeopardizing the integrity of the wheels/spokes? I don't know how the spokes/hub interface.

I think that's it for questions. Here are the pics...

Here are ALL the gears in the transmission. It's funny the way that thing comes apart; it's a process, and there is literally only one way to do it. Amazing how far manual trans technology has come.

IMG_6475.jpg

Here is why I tore the trans apart. The second gear was sliding forward, and using the reverse shift "fork" as a thrust surface. Need to space the clutch rearward to prevent this, I believe.

IMG_6476.jpg

Closer view

IMG_6477.jpg

Here is half of the "first gear". I was shocked at how worn it was (obviously from grinding), but even more shocked at how uneven the wear is, around the gear! You'd thing it would be pretty evenly worn, but it varies quite a lot, IMO.

IMG_6478.jpg

Look at all those gears!! LOL You know what's funny/odd; first gear in the Hupp is ABOUT the same as first gear in most modern, manual trans cars ~3:1. High gear, is obviously 1:1....same as most modern cars' 4th gear. Even many modern cars would struggle noticeably going from first to 4th exclusively.

IMG_6479.jpg

Here is the shift-detent...thing. Does it look normal? Or is it worn?

IMG_6480.jpg

The empty trans case...

IMG_6481.jpg

IMG_6482.jpg

In the rear, see the "small" hole, just under the outer race? I thought that was an attempt at an oil seal. Wait until you see what it was...

IMG_6483.jpg

IMG_6486.jpg

IMG_6487.jpg

Shim stock. Lots of it.

IMG_6488.jpg

That is a lot of...*ahem*, shim stock.

IMG_6495.jpg

And here is the attempt at an oil seal...

IMG_6489.jpg

IMG_6490.jpg

At the other end of the axle tube, after you pull out the roller bearing, I found this. What is it?? I doubt that it belongs there...

IMG_6494.jpg

IMG_6492.jpg

Lastly, I discovered these threaded holes in the axle housing, with screws in them. I was happy to use those holes (with bolts) to push out the outer dif races. They worked perfect for that, but I wonder; could those be used to set the preload on the diff bearings rather than shims? W/the split housing design, it almost seems like the logical method. I mean, trying to "set up" the gears, by disassembling and re-shimming the outer race a million times, to get preload and backlash right...it gives me anxiety to think about it. Using those holes and screws would be a boon to gear set up. What do you all know about that?

IMG_6484.jpg

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Hi Tom, Another busy week end . I believe the three holes are to remove the race , as you discovered.

On your reverse pinion; I'm wondering if it was properly adjusted ( linkage, and the stop in the side of the case ) to be out of the way when not engaged.

I think one would change the oil in the differential with a siphon gun, most any parts store would have one .

Have you miked the main transmission shaft ends and their bushings yet? Also the outside of the drive gear and it's bearing ? As well as the OD of the clutch drum where it enters the rear main ?

I question that the outboard axles ends should have that much movement ( or any ) .

Dave , Karl , guys, what do you think ?

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On the rear hubs; I wouldn't want to remove them except as a last resort.

How bad are the tapers? You might be able to "fit" them with valve grinding ( course) paste.A bit time consuming ,but mat be all you need.

Ken

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On your reverse pinion; I'm wondering if it was properly adjusted ( linkage, and the stop in the side of the case ) to be out of the way when not engaged.

It was adjusted so that it was well out of the way of the moving gears. I had checked that a while back when I first had the problem w/the reverse for pin falling out.

I think one would change the oil in the differential with a siphon gun, most any parts store would have one .

Yeah, that would work...kind of. Those suction guns never work very well. But yep, that would be the best way, I suppose. I can't believe that Hupp didn't put a drain in there though.

Have you miked the main transmission shaft ends and their bushings yet? Also the outside of the drive gear and it's bearing ? As well as the OD of the clutch drum where it enters the rear main ?
Not yet, but will today. I think that all of those parts are in good condition. There wasn't much slop in any of those places.

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On the rear hubs; I wouldn't want to remove them except as a last resort.

How bad are the tapers? You might be able to "fit" them with valve grinding ( course) paste.A bit time consuming ,but mat be all you need.

Ken

10-4. Thanks for the input. The tapers are beat, but with a reconditioned taper, grinding paste may work on the hub.

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I looked at the Bill Cuthbert dating identification chart ( c. 1971)

for the rear axle shafts ;

1909 Straight ends w/ keys & pins

1910 Tapered ends w/ keys & pins

1911 Tapered ends w/ Keys & nuts

1912 Tapered ends w/ keys & nuts.

Of course repairs done years ago and restorations may have changed things along the way .

A few other tid-bits ;

for 1911 a separate cooling fan made available "for hot climates" *

and the three "tension adjusting plugs" added to the clutch hub.

mid 1911 curved dash changed to straight top radiator shell changed from brass to painted.

Edgar may have some additional items to add.

* I have some ideas regarding this additional fan topic. Will address that later in another thread.

Ken

The very original car I bought unrestored is No.7055 (early 1911) and has straight rear axles. It is definately a Model B according to the handbook.

I'll wait til you start another thread Ken, to comment on radiators and cooling.

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Tom, your gearbox is just fine. You have nothing to worry about from the pictures you show. The detent 'thing' is perfect. All you need to check is that the output shaft is not sloppy in its white-metal bearing. If it is the easiest remedy is to fit a new bronze bearing with an oil seal between it and the universal. Originally the oil ran out of the gearbox to lubricate the uv joint, then down the torque tube and into the dif. Then out along the axle tubes throught the felt seals and onto the brake linings!! There is an open hole under the axle tube near the wheel which is supposed to let surplus oil out onto the road but it is ineffective except for making a mess.

I lubricate the uv with a special light grease applied through the two screw in bungs. I run SAE 250 equivalent gear oil in the dif which horrible to do anything with. It is like heavy treakle. The hole at 10 o'clock is to fill the dif with a syringe and the lower hole is the height of the oil in the dif. I also found I had to put oil seals in the dif to stop the crown wheel from pumping the oil out of the dif and down the axle tube. Once the dif has oil in it I think you may have to hoist the car by the front axle to drain it out!! In other words it is darned hard to empty it.

Don't fret yourself over the damage done by incorrect adjustments of the gearbox. It are not terminal.

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GEARBOX ADJUSTMENTS ON 16/20HP HUPMOBILES (1909-13)

The gearbox is basic and simple with two main adjustments in the gear lever linkages. One linkage adjusts the position of the gear lever in the gate. The other linkage adjusts the position of the reverse gear pinion inside the gearbox. A third important adjustment inside the gearbox locates the position of the sliding gears. Two screws with lock nuts on the outside of the gearbox are stops for the ‘reverse clevis lever’ and the ‘reverse pinion support.’ These two screws help to keep the linkages inside the gearbox correctly located.

Adjustments are made as follows:

1. Jack the rear wheels off the ground.

2. Remove the plate off the top of the gearbox and loosen the two adjusting screws on the side of the gearbox. With the gear lever pushed fully forward (top gear), turn the engine over and observe whether the sliding gear catches on the reverse gear pinion. It should just miss it, being very slightly behind it. If the sliding gear catches on the reverse gear pinion, the sliding gear selector is incorrectly adjusted. In that case the stud which clamps the selector to the gear shifter shaft must be loosened and the other end of the shaft disconnected so that the shaft can be screwed around inside the selector to enable the sliding gear to be moved back closer to the back of the gearbox. The position of the gear shifter shaft in the gearbox is determined by a little spring loaded stop, so the shaft slides backwards and forwards into one of three positions, top, neutral or low. Once the sliding gear selector is correctly located the clamping stud can be tightened again and the linkage reconnected.

3. With the sliding gear correctly positioned, move the gear lever back into neutral position where it should line up with the reverse gate. If it does not line up after adjusting the gear selector, it can be made to do so by adjusting the screwed ‘eye’ in the end of the ‘change speed control link.’ This ‘low - high’ linkage connecting the gear lever to the gearbox is found under the floor.)

4. With the gear lever still in neutral position the reverse pinion should be pulled clear of the sliding gear, when the engine is turned over. If the pinion is not clear, adjustment can be made on the ‘reverse push rod’ by screwing the ‘eye’, at the opposite end to the gear lever, until the pinion is completely free. This adjustment is also under the floor.

5. Push the gear lever into reverse position and check that the reverse gear pinion is engaging the sliding gear. If the pinion is not meshing properly, the ‘reverse push rod’ may need further adjustment so that it meshes the gears when in reverse position but clears them when in neutral position. It may also be necessary to adjust the two screws in the side of the gearbox to make the reverse pinion move smoothly as the gear lever is shifted in and out of reverse. The top screw stops the reverse change shaft from going too far when in the gear lever is in reverse position. The bottom screw acts against the ‘reverse gear pinion support.’

Sorry no pictures unless I go out and take them.

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Tom I forgot top respond to other items. The screws in the dif housing can be replaced with square headed grub screws and used to adjust preload with Timken tapered bearings -very good. You may need more shims inside.

The hyatt roller bearings should fit snugly on the rear axles. T Fords have exactly the same arrangement so there should be heaps of advice around. You can actually cut T Ford bearings shorter and use them. Sloppiness can be taken up by shim metal between the outer housing and the heardened steel sleeve in which the bearing runs.

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I am still a bit puzzled over your axles Tom. Are they straight or tapered? I thought I read that they were straight but then you talk about having the tapers machined. Beware! you are moving into dangerous territory. Your car is a Model B and tapered axles belong to Model C with the bigger brake drums. The hubs on the rear wheels should look just like the front hubs and they should have a hole to peg the hub to the axle.

In the latest pictures I see a tapered axle with the hubs held on by a nut screwed onto the end of the axle. That is a Model C configuration, so I suspect the axles have been changed. What happened in the old days was that the hubs wore on the straight axles so the wheels waggled about and made the car hard to steer. I would like to see a picture of your rear wheel hubs viewed from the hub cap side because there could be something not quite right, and you don't want to get machining done until you are sure of what has happened. Do you have the original and correct hubs running on tapered axles? If so I'll tell you what to do when I get your reply. Incidently you can remove the hub from the wheel but be sure to have replacement bolts on hand because you can't use the old ones. I used countersunk heads for allen keys with plain nuts on the outside. Do not try to use acorn nuts for show! and you must put the hub back in exactly the same position on the wheel.

I have been working on these things for years and had many a heart ache.

(Please pardon all my spelling mistakes.) I could warn you about a few other Hupmobile quirks, but deal with one thing at a time.

Good luck Tom and everone else interested.

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"Many a heart ache" - Amen to that !

Edgar your instructions on adjusting the transmission are excellent. Way more detailed than what I have in my copy of the Owner's instruction booklet ( revised May,1914).

Did you write them up from experience or is there another ( shop ) manual available ?

Ken

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"Many a heart ache" - Amen to that !

Edgar your instructions on adjusting the transmission are excellent. Way more detailed than what I have in my copy of the Owner's instruction booklet ( revised May,1914).

Did you write them up from experience or is there another ( shop ) manual available ?

Ken

Hi, I wrote them up specially for a query from Portugal. There are no other manuals other than the spare parts manual to my knowledge.

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Edgar

Thanks for the tranny instructions they are invaluable.

What happened to you Aussies at the World Cup ???

Whats even more astounding is that us Kiwis (probably the most inconsistent cricket team on the planet and fresh from losing 10 in a row prior to this tournament) beat and bundled out South Africa - Go figure !

I wish I had some dollars on those results - Who could have predicted that.

Karl

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Edgar, Thank you very much for the detailed posts, information and instructions. Those are some excellent posts, above.

I am still a bit puzzled over your axles Tom. Are they straight or tapered? ...I would like to see a picture of your rear wheel hubs viewed from the hub cap side because there could be something not quite right, and you don't want to get machining done until you are sure of what has happened. Do you have the original and correct hubs running on tapered axles?
Here are some pics of the tapered axles, and hubs that are on our car. I have no idea if this rear is original or not...

IMG_5351.jpg

IMG_5352.jpg

IMG_5341.jpg

HERE is what prompted me to want to "recondition" the axle's taper. This hub rides too far "in" on the taper, and you can see where the end of the axle tube has started to cut the hub. Also, the inside of the drum has rubbed the brake shoe posts.

IMG_5343.jpg

Other wheel. No axle tube or brake post contact here. At least not recently...

IMG_5346.jpg

IMG_5347.jpg

Incidently you can remove the hub from the wheel but be sure to have replacement bolts on hand because you can't use the old ones. I used countersunk heads for allen keys with plain nuts on the outside. Do not try to use acorn nuts for show! and you must put the hub back in exactly the same position on the wheel.

That is good to know. Taking the hubs off would make cleaning and reconditioning MUCH easier! I ASSUME, that what really holds the wheel spokes to the hub, is the clamping force of the hub halves, on the wood. Yes? No?

.

Edited by Tom400CFI (see edit history)

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Here are some more updates and VIDS, this time to show what is going on. First one is about the tranny, and specifically, the output gear's forward thrust, issue...

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/hI7RC9psBO8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Here is a more specific look at the output gear/mainshaft bushing...

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prQTz87cBcY"frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Here is a quick vid of the clutch-end bushing for the main shaft...

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/T-ZWc1FKQTA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

REAR "WHEEL" BEARINGS: I didn't take pics of it, but I have this vid of the rear wheel bearings. Take a look and see what you think...

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/4HP9R0UNpQs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

.

Edited by Tom400CFI (see edit history)

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Hi Tom, A couple of quick comments. The rear wheel hub rubbing might also be caused by a worn "tee" bronze bushing at the other end of the axle @ the bevel gear,and / or the bronze spacer between the spider gears, or the wear in the carrier bearings. Normally I wouldn't think the taper would have much chance to wear. I would get those taken care of first, then see where the wheel rides on the taper.

In the video showing the front end of the tranny shaft that looked like a bit too much play, but it 's a little hard to see exactly. This is the one I had troubles with. As Edgar put it "heartache". You don't want to take your engine out two more times like I did !

Measure the shaft, measure the bushing ( near opening & down inside to check for taper) ,you only want .002 for oil clearence. My thinking is this has a lot to do with how you clutch,transmision ,shifting will act.

On the driving gear I think you need to fit all components in , then check. That was a little hard to see in the video.

There should be a sleeve inside the axle tube for the bearing to ride in. There are special tools to insert or remove it .I 'lltry and post a pic of one .

Just some thoughts from here , Edgar and the others I'm sure will have some good advice .

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A couple of shots of the sleeve for the wheel bearing .

You'll see a hole , that's for the removal tool .

And a "dimple" , that's to locate the sleeve in the tube.

post-59140-14313849597_thumb.jpg

post-59140-143138495976_thumb.jpg

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Those are great pics Ken! Thanks for posting! Looks like I'll be making a tool to pull those sleeves.

EDIT: I mean to comment on what you said about the the "T bushings" in the diff. I think they are fine. They look great and they fit the side gears very snuggly. Also, when I assemble the diff, there is little lateral slop of the axle shafts in the diff housing. I'll have another look at that..but I think that part might be O.K.

Edited by Tom400CFI (see edit history)

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In the video showing the front end of the tranny shaft that looked like a bit too much play, but it 's a little hard to see exactly. This is the one I had troubles with. As Edgar put it "heartache". You don't want to take your engine out two more times like I did !

Measure the shaft, measure the bushing ( near opening & down inside to check for taper) ,you only want .002 for oil clearence. My thinking is this has a lot to do with how you clutch,transmision ,shifting will act.

My car shifted fine before taking it apart. The clutch functioned O.K. too...except for the excessive friction when depressing the clutch pedal...which is due to the shot thrust bushings, IMO.
On the driving gear I think you need to fit all components in , then check. That was a little hard to see in the video.
Sorry that wasn't clear. In the first vid, that is "assembled". The clutch housing is in the engine, the trans is bolted to the crank case w/the main shaft and output gear installed. Basically just as it would be in operation...and you can see how much fore and aft movement there was. Over an 1/8". I have no problem spacing the clutch rearward to take up that space...but I was mildly concerned about the proximity of those mainshaft keys, to the output gear.

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I am confused. I don't understand why I see pictures of tapered axles in a Model B rear end assembly when they should be straight axles with the wheel hubs pegged onto the axles. What worries me is that Model B axles and wheel hubs are totally different from those on a Model C and subsequent models. This seems to me to be the reason why the brake drums are being trashed by the brake shoes. They aren't interchangeable. Something is not right. I want to see a picture of the outside of the hub not the inside. I suspect you have a Model C axle and wheel hub in a Model B rear end and the Model C axle is too short.

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That would explain the clearance issue. I'll take a pic of the outside of the hub, tonight when I get home and post it for you.

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Another question for you Tom; Which wheel is rubbing on the brakes ?

I suspect the right side . I'm thinking you have play in the differential carrier bearing allowing both axles ( and differential ) to shift to the left ( as the pinion would not allow shifting to the right).

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KEN: Right side. And I did have play in the diff carrier bearings. One of the main reasons why I started into this project. :)

Edgar, Here are three pics of the hub...

IMG_6509.jpg

IMG_6510.jpg

IMG_6511.jpg

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Hi Tom, Edgar sent me these photos and asked me to post them for you. I will let him take it from there as to which is which ,and correct for your car.

Photos are numbered

238

240

243

246

Ken

post-59140-143138497265_thumb.jpg

post-59140-143138497285_thumb.jpg

post-59140-143138497306_thumb.jpg

post-59140-143138497324_thumb.jpg

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