'10 Hupp drive train repairs...

[Tom400CFI]

In case you are interested the Torrington bearings are AXK4565 + thin pressure washers to fill the 7/32 inch gap between clutch drum and crankcase (check this gap, bearing in mind wear on the crankcase) and AXK4065 for internal Torrington bearing behind the clutch spring (if required) with pressure plates LS 4060 & AS4060. From memory this set up obviates the problem with the shoulder on the brass bush as it fits around it (However my memory is playing tricks on me now).

Good luck with the work, Tom.

This is good information and I'm using some of the same bearings. For me, the LS4060 and it's respective races didn't fit over the shoulder of my clutch housing. I had to throw it in the lathe and cut that bit down, even with the rest of the shaft, then polish it. Came out sweet, and I'm confident that it will work really well.. WAY better than the bushing stack that originally resided there.

I didn't have to replace the "behind the spring" ball thrust bearing, but I am also replacing the "throw-out bushing" with a needle thrust bearing too. In my case, I'm using a TRD-4458, which fits awesome, and I think it will work really well. Both bearings have 7000+ lbf ratings, and 7000+ RPM limits...so I think it's safe to say that they'll last a while in this application!

-Tom

Edited April 19, 2011 by Tom400CFI (see edit history)

[Tom400CFI]

UPDATE: (sorry, no pics -didn't have time for pics on this session)

SO. My time to work on the Hupp is very limited. I've moved, but kept the car in my old house. Rented the house and told the renters that the back of the garage was "off limits", until I get the car done and out of there...along with all of my tools. I went up last weekend, with some new parts in hand. I finished assembling the transmission (with the proper main shaft end-play), got it attached to the engine, complete with all new roller thrust bearings on both sides of the clutch. Smoooooth as silk now! Should make a marked improvement for clutch-in operation, going forward.

I pulled the Magneto and adjusted all the valves while they were easy to get to. Then, I installed the engine/trans assy, hooked up all the shifting linkage, installed the radiator/crank, headlights, and hooked up all the ancillaries....engine and trans are almost ready to go! Only thing that I need to do are install (time) the Mag. Anyone know what the timing is supposed to be set at? I will find TDC using a "poor-man's" dial indicator and pointer, then I can set the timing to a spec from there...if there is one.

Now I'm waiting for the new R&P gears and machine work on the rear axle housing. Once I get a good stock-pile of parts for those items, I will head back for another "session". I THINK I can wrap it up in two more weekends of actual work. We'll see.

[Guest Edgar Bowen]

Hi Tom, I hope you gave your valve tappets the correct clearance. Most owners follow modern convention and then wonder why their engine is under powered. The clearances must be at least 16 thou for inlet and 18 for exhaust. I use 18 for inlet and 20 for exhaust.

The following is exactly and precisely the correct timing for the magneto. Don't deviate from it.

TIMING THE MAGNETO

1. Remove the quill from the back of the magneto. It slides forward off the top of the thing that looks like a little spark plug. Undo the two little studs that hold down the alloy cover between the magnets on the driving end of the magneto and lift this cover off carefully, avoiding any damage to the carbon brush underneath the cover.

2. Place the magneto in position on the side plate bracket. Turn the flywheel to T.D.C. position with No.1 valve closing and No.2 valve opening, and then turn the flywheel one more full revolution to T.D.C. again. This time the flywheel will be in the position where No.1 piston is at the top of its compression, or firing stroke when the spark is needed. Check that T.D.C. on the flywheel is 9-10mm (3/8ths inch) to the right of the punch marks on the front of the cylinder barrel.

3. Now turn the magneto armature until the big brass gear inside the front of the magneto (behind the distributor cap) is in the position where the carbon brush holder is at about 25 minutes past the hour (looking from the front of the engine) and the edge of the armature where the alloy plate was removed, has an opening of 9-10mm (3/8ths inch) between it and the magneto body. This is where the armature cuts the magnetic lines and produces a spark. Holding the armature in this position, marry the magneto drive gear to the timing gear on the side plate, and screw up only the two studs that fasten the alloy gear cover to the side plate. The Hupp 20 works best with the spark in this one position. There is no point in being able to manually advance or retard the spark. Because of its low compression ratio, the engine works with a fixed spark. It is that simple.

4. Push the magneto against the timing gear and then withdraw it very slightly so that the gears are not touching. Line the magneto up parallel with the engine and tighten the four studs securing it to the side plate from underneath. Turn the crank again and make sure there is still no gear meshing noise, bar rattles. Replace the alloy cover and the quill in the back of the magneto and replace the distributor cover on the front of the magneto, making sure that the carbon brush is still in place. Check that the lead from No.1 spark plug goes to the 25 minutes past the hour terminal on the distributor cover, that No.2 lead goes to 10 past the hour, that No. 4 goes to 5 to the hour, and that No.3 goes to 20 to the hour.

5. If your magneto is not of the fixed spark type, Bosch DU4, but has an adjustable spark, it would be wise to check that the points are opening at exactly the right time. With the cap taken off the magneto points, turn the engine until the flywheel is 9-10mm (3/8ths inch) past T.D.C. on the firing stroke of No.1 cylinder. The carbon brush on the magneto’s brass wheel will then be positioned 25 minutes past the hour and the points should be just starting to open. If they are not, advance or retard the spark adjustment as required. It sometimes happens that even when the spark is advanced or retarded, the points do not open at the right time. In that case, remove the sleeve that holds the cams. It just pulls off when the cap is removed. A slot on the rim of the sleeve allows the sleeve to move within a limited range, but that range may not let the points open at the correct time. If that is the case, on the body of the magneto a small grub screw will be found which acts as a stop for each end of the slot when the sleeve is either advanced or retarded. Observe whether there is another hole in which the grub screw can be placed to allow the sleeve to operate in a different position, and try that. This problem only occurs when a magneto is obtained from a source other than another Hupp 20.

6. Replace the inlet manifold with carburettor. Connect fuel pipe, accelerator, etc. and the job is done. With the compression cocks still open, turn the crank handle rapidly, and there should be no gear noise at all.

7. Replace the crankcase draining petcocks and put new oil in the engine. It takes about a litre, half a litre for each pair of cylinders. Start the engine and check that there is no whine. Presto! the job’s done and the whole procedure will have taken a novice about 2 hours with everything on hand. This time includes fitting the side plate and removal and refitting the front mudguard (fender) and inlet manifold with carburretor.

ADDENDUM

Regarding the timing of the magneto. Sometimes the magneto itself can be incorrectly timed, as happened with two magnetos that I had reconditioned. Then when I followed the driver’s handbook instructions for timing the magneto, I could not get it to work. The timing had been changed on the sleeve that opens and closes the points. Follow the above instructions to get it correctly timed.

Edited May 24, 2011 by Edgar Bowen (see edit history)

[KenHupp20]

Excellent information.

Here are the diagrams and text from the owner's instruction booklet.Same as Edgar's instructions but thought you might enjoy.

Ken

[Tom400CFI]

Hi Tom, I hope you gave your valve tappets the correct clearance. Most owners follow modern convention and then wonder why their engine is under powered. The clearances must be at least 16 thou for inlet and 18 for exhaust. I use 18 for inlet and 20 for exhaust.

I'm a little confused.

Ken posting the Owners Instruction Booklet pics REMINDED ME that I have one!! (duh!)

So I dug it out and thumbed through it last night and found two references to setting valve lash;

one says "no more than the thickness of a playing card" and the other says, more specifically, "No greater than .004""

Setting your valve lash at .020...you're probably losing a good chunk of your total valve lift, and a good bit of duration, as well. What has led you to settle on that number? I set mine at .008" and thought that was being generous, considering that there are no pushrods (to expand), just valve on lifter.

Edited May 25, 2011 by Tom400CFI (see edit history)

[KenHupp20]

I have another question ;can the timing be set by the cigarette paper in the breaker points method?

[Guest Edgar Bowen]

Hello Tom, I set my valve tappets originally at 6 and 8 thou and burnt the valves, so a mechanic friend asked me if I had another engine for him to check the valve settings on, which I did, and we found the other engine had the tappet gaps set at 18 thou. "There you are," he said, "there's your problem." Since then I have driven over 6,000 miles in my Hupp and it has a better performance than most other Model 20s I know. Yes, my driver's handbook says a card thickness but it begs the question, what sort of card? 20 thou is not very thick. It is like asking, how long is a piece of string?

As for the magneto points gap, I think mine is set at 12 thou.

Regards, Edgar

[Tom400CFI]

Interesting. Most of my valves were set at ~.008"...which helped me settle on that for a spec. There were about three that were REALLLY loose, and one that was really tight -about .004". And we've always felt that THIS Hupp went better than most! It tops 50 mph which is strong fro a '10 Hupp in my limited experience.

We'll see. When I start it, I'll get it as hot as I can (climb a big hill in first gear) then check the lash again, quick. See what we find. Thanks for the input!

Ken, are you talking about altering the timing using the points setting? Smaller opening = later spark, and larger opening = earlier spark (more advanced timing). Yes you could alter the timing some using that method, but you may also affect the spark intensity, depending on how saturated the windings are at the point of breaking the circuit.

If you're asking about simply setting the points' opening SPEC from a piece of paper...sure. As long as they open and break the circuit, you'll get a spark. But you may be able to "tune" the magneto to perform differently based on points setting.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Tom400CFI (see edit history)

[KenHupp20]

I was referring to the method of using a piece of cigarette ( extremely thin) paper to feel the points beginning to open, thus cause spark. Not to set the gap.It seems like a much simpler method than taking the back apart.

This old fashioned method works well when you don't have a timing light.

[Tom400CFI]

I got you now. Yep that is a good idea. That would work!

[Tom400CFI]

MOving has sucked, with regard to this project. But FINALLY, things are moving again...resulting in more questions.

The rear whee hubs are all "hogged out" and the axle shaft ends are haggard. The machinist wants to put the hubs in the lathe and rebuild the ID of the hub, then rebuild the ends of the axle shafts. To put the hubs in the lathe, requires removing the hubs from the wheels. I have never done this. He says that it looks like there is some kind of epoxy holding the wood/hub assy together.

Anyone have experience with rear hubs? If so...please talk to me about rear hubs and how they're assembled. One positive side effect of rebuilding the hubs is that I could potentially get the wheels to run completely true -which they never have.

Thanks!

[KenHupp20]

Do you ,and the machinist think they are too far gone to simply lap them in for a better fit?

[Tom400CFI]

We feel that lapping could work, and we may go that route...but we feel that re-machining would be the BEST method...if hub disassembly is a reasonable option.

[Max BURKE]

G,day to all and Tom

Well tom you seem to be forging ahead blindly or otherwise. I can see from your picture that the back of your crankcase needs to be resurfaced,the oil groves are gone on their outer radius. Seems someone has placed a lip seal at the rear main. Whatever you are going to push against it with your clutch be it needle roller or original type phosper bronze it is going to try to dish.Edgar and I dissagree on the needle rollers Imagine the speed those needles are doing with your foot on the clutch at the lights Never pack back the clutch It needs all the engagement length on the two keys which are dot marked as are the clutch components. Make sure the clutch hub is not going right through and bottoming on the crankshaft web before your new bearing is engaged Did you find the mainshaft end float adjustment, its under the thrust washer in the top gear and is a shim pack.Most folk here use Ford Crown and pinion a fraction of other cost. More if you need it.

Max Burke Nulkaba Australia

[Max BURKE]

G,Day to all and Tom

We use o12 thou on both inlet and exhaust valves. We use austinetic valves in inlet and exhaust .When very hot after a heavy load chek what you have. If more than 8 to 10 thou you can bring back the clearence as there is not enough lift in the first place to loose any.Edgars valves may have tremendous stem expansion. By the way we took out all the fibre blocks and used the last type of threaded adjusters and caps with split lock cotters We have not had valve trouble.

Tom ,going to the back and your hubs. Surely your early car would have run parallel hubs and axles. Seems Hup or a subsequent repairer did mix and match a bit. Our Mod D has straight hubs and axles but with adjustable bell torque tube and the large brake drums.Our mod C roadster with original enclosure kit has taper hubs and axles and a one piece torque tube with no hyatt bearing ,adjustment by shims. It has the larger brake drums.Cast in the rear axle housings around the rivets is a white metal bearing block . It is to restrain the grease migrating along the axle. If you go to new axles and they are larger dia at this point they wont pass through. Melt out the babbit as you cant drive it out.Jobbers (yankee term) stocked hard steel shims to take up axle taper slack.That was in the 1950s but you can make them to give it a try. Our C is about 250 earlier than our D.@# 9499 Landed in Australia September 1911 More if you need it

Max Burke Nulkaba Australia

Edgar,Why is your entry not on the list for the National in Ipswitch.? Its almost next door for you.

[Guest Edgar Bowen]

Removal of hubs from a wheel is easy but be sure to have new hub bolts on hand for re-assembly. I note in previous pictures that you have 8 inch brake drums which means the bolts have counter sunk heads on the inside of the brake drum with nuts on the outside. Why you need new bolts is because the old ones are peened to stop the nuts coming undone. You will have to grind off the peen. Get new bolts that can be held with hex keys for tightening up.

Drift out the old bolts and then supporting the spokes, knock the hub out off the wheel with a wood mallet taking care not to damage the thread for the hub cap. You should have had straight axles with the hubs held on by a pin through the hub. If the pin is still there drift it out.

If the hub is glued in with epoxy, start by easing off the brake drum with a knife or spatula between it and the spokes. Then you may be able to get the hub out easier. If the worst comes to the worst, number each spoke, then remove the rivets that hold on the clincher rim, warm it up and tap out the felloes with spokes, marking everything so it goes back together exactly the same way. Now you may be able to ease out the spokes one at a time and so remove the hub without wrecking the spokes. If you have to make new spokes, I'll tell you how to do that too (without a lathe). Good luck.

[Max BURKE]

G,day to all and Edgar

Edgar ,would you agree that Toms Hup has been subject to mix and match to a very wide degree. Notice the crown wheel carrier bearings. Cup and cone Ball.I have seen only one like it before and that was model A. He has only 2 planet gears on a pin not a cross The bronze block may be date stamped,many are. All A or early B. I recon the axles and back hubs have been changed to taper when the torque tube was changed to an adjustable Bell. The front stub axles are the early type ball race type.I agree with you the gearbox looks like Tom will get another run out of it after he puts some teeth back on the low gear cluster. In your first post Tom you said you wanted to keep her running and not have a major rebuild. I do hope you were laughing. Edgar ,is your entry in for the Hup rally?

Max Burke Nulkaba Australia

[Guest Edgar Bowen]

G,day to all and Edgar

Edgar ,would you agree that Toms Hup has been subject to mix and match to a very wide degree. Notice the crown wheel carrier bearings. Cup and cone Ball.I have seen only one like it before and that was model A. He has only 2 planet gears on a pin not a cross The bronze block may be date stamped,many are. All A or early B. I recon the axles and back hubs have been changed to taper when the torque tube was changed to an adjustable Bell. The front stub axles are the early type ball race type.I agree with you the gearbox looks like Tom will get another run out of it after he puts some teeth back on the low gear cluster. In your first post Tom you said you wanted to keep her running and not have a major rebuild. I do hope you were laughing. Edgar ,is your entry in for the Hup rally?

Max Burke Nulkaba Australia

Tom, Max and all,

I have studied your pictures carefully Tom and can say that your Hupp is unquestionably a Model B made before mid 1911 but the original rear axles and hubs have been replaced with modified Model C hubs and axles. Before I tell you what to do, don't worry about the 1st gear cluster. It will work fine as it is, provided you adjust the gearbox correctly. Building up the teeth is fraught with peril and it isn't worth doing that.

I really would consider replacing your differential carrier bearings with Timkens (numbers provided earlier in this thread). This would give a really positive pre-loading of the bearings using your existing washers to line up the crown wheel with the pinion and the grub screws in the diff housing which you point at with a finger in one picture, as the fine adjustment. Replace the grub screws with square head studs for ease of adjustment with a lock nut to hold them firmly.

I recommend having the inside of the diff housings machined to fit oil seals on the wheel side of the bearings otherwise diff oil gets pumped down the axle tube and comes out onto the brake linings no matter what oil you use.

I see that the wheel bolts have been welded to the brake hubs, so leave them alone. Undo the nuts holding on the wheel hubs and drift off the hubs from inside the drums. If epoxy has been used run a knife, spatula, or if necessary a hacksaw blade to separate the hubs from the brake drums. The wood spokes are clamped between the hub and brake drum. After the hubs have been built up and matched to the axles, you can put them back on the wheels and loctite the nuts on after you make sure every things lines up correctly with the back axles assembled.

I found that the torque tube has a tendency to come loose on the diff. housing, so use of loctite on the studs and nuts is a good idea. Make sure the pinion meshes properly with the crown wheel.

Max is concerned about your diff spider having only two sun wheels. That is correct for a Model B. Models C and on had three sun wheels.

Max I sent in my application and fee for the Australian national veteran rally back in March. I am still in the UK until July 2nd.

[Max BURKE]

G,day to all' Tom & Edgar.

Hurry back Edgar or we wont be able to understand your speech on your return.

Of course Toms low gear will still run BUT it is simple to set it up in the mill while the original teeth are still there after putting them back with 6/80 or something simular.I expect if you have to pay someone for this work then it may be wrought with problems but I do my own . I admit it helps to have a sponsor for the welding rods.Now then Edgar you did not say if you had encountered the cup and cone with loose balls on the CW carrier. I have seen only one but i would recon they were only used in Model A What say you? Further when John took down the torque tube on car no 9223 there was no pin installed in the uni joint. Imagine the effect on the backlash at the other end. It was the rivitted Bell and a 2 bearing type(no Hyat) I replaced it with a screwed Ball t tube

In our touring car I have two Timken bearings back to back in each of the rear wheels with a lip seal on the oil side and another in the retaining nut which screws onto the axle housing to retain the assembly. Preload is by a selective fit sleeve. Our Qld roadster is in original style but not original parts and leaks at the drain holes and seeps into the brakes

Max Burke Nulkaba Australia

[Max BURKE]

G,day Tom ,Edgar and all.

No Edgar Im not concerned about two only planitary gears at all. What i am saying is look to the bronze block for a date Stamped into the block.Looks to me that with the Ball carrier bearings and the two unit diff gear, the axles ,hubs and torque tube have been swaped about in earlier times. Ford drivers stop the rear hub oil leaks by taking off the hub and pulling the hyatt bearing. Then these resoursfull fellows cut about 50 washers from feltex and ram them up the housing with a length of exhaust pipe untill no more will fit.Soaks up the leak to be sure.Trouble on Hup 20 the rivets protrude on the inside enough to prevent the felt going up to the babbit metal block there in.Tom have a good look where the torque tube studs onto the diff housing . If there are cracks(common) this is where you will find them. Run your oxy torch gently here and if there are cracks they will jump out at you.

Edgar, you are not on the national VCCQ rally entrants list.(Ipswich) Are you sure you didnt enter the Hup rally(Bundaburg) by mistake. They are seperate events a few days apart. I realise you had a lot of grief at the time that entries were called.There would still be time to sort it out with Trevor F.

Max Burke Nulkaba Australia

[Tom400CFI]

Hello gentlmen. Thank you for all the comments and input.

We are not going to disassemble the wheels at this point. We are going to lightly hone them and rebuild the axle ends, then lap them together.

I had no idea, previously, if the parts were authetic/correct, and don't care (not to sound rude -the information, and having the facts is valuable to me!) But this car is far from show quality/correct; it is purly a driver and gets used as such...which is the reason why I dove into this project in the first place. I felt that further touring was getting into the realm of unsafe, and excessive wear to parts.

I agree that my trans gears are fine and usable as is. That wasn't an issue any longer, in my mind, and neither is the use of roller thrust bearings as they're rated for something like 7500 RPM...hardly in the realm of Hupmobile rev's right? When I rebuild the clutch in my Corvette, I'll worry about thrust bearing speed limits! Joking aside, the trans is done, back on the engine, in the car and I'm past that now. It's ALL about the rear, brakes, and torque tube at this point.

Speaking of which:

Edgar, I agree and have seen the TT nuts come loose. Check, on the loc-tite when I get to that point. I'm also having the machinist install a locating dowl pin on the front/face/flange of the left side (ring gear side) of the housing so that will help stabilize the TT on the diff housing, IMO. Also will make it much easier to set up the gears properly.

Things are moving though, (albeit blindly?) and I hope to have it back in a couple weeks so I can assemble. Then I have to go get the rest of the car from UT, bring it down to the middle of no-f'n-where, Colorado, so I can put the whole thing back to gether. Man, I can't wait until it's done and behind me. Moving really ruined what should have been a fun project. Now it's just a burden that I want to be over with. Anyway, I appreciate the help and input. It definiltey helps to get experienced comments and opinions.

[Tom400CFI]

Well I have somewhat of an update.

Machine work is done on the axle housing, shafts, and hubs. Brake shafts, bores, arms are all rebuilt and are magnificant! All he has left machining wise, I believe, is putting in the dowl pins for the housing halves and the torque tube. Should be ready for final assy shortly (fingers crossed)!

As I said earlier in this thread, I asked him to face the housing halves where they bolt together, so that I could avoid using paper gaskets in the future. I still can't understand how you set up diff/carrier bearings when you hare using a compressable gasket. (?) Anyway, he said that one of the face/flanges was out by over .030". Or 1/32". Yikes.

He has all the bearings in, and I gave him the R&P gears Friday that I had made at Lawler Gear. I'm getting excited. I'm looking forward to "setting up" the gears and getting this thing put back together. Will take pics and post when I get all the parts back and start final assy.

-Tom

[Tom400CFI]

UPDATE!

Well, a few things have happened since my last posting:

1. Telluride job went to sh-t, so we moved back to civilization (Park City, UT)

2. Machine work was finished

3. Assembly has begun.

The owner of the ski resort that I went to work at, decided to assume control of the resort operations. Although he has zero experience business operations, he came to town, fired the CEO (someone who ran the resort profitably, and brought it to #5 ranking in North America). Chaos ensued and about 1/3 of the senior team either quit or was fired. One of those casualties was my boss. Everything that she had hired me to implement and drive, the owner thought was "stupid". You know, things like KPI's, Accountability, Damage control, etc. "Stupid". He came to my office in October and told me; "I don't like you. I don't like you're ideas. I think your ideas are stupid. We're going to eliminate your position." And that was it. Our time in Telluride was over. I can't say that I've ever had an encounter like the above, before. It was...surreal. Maybe if the guy knew something about me, or my ideas (or where the ideas came from) he'd have considered them more? I don't know, but his loss. Since I've left, the Corp Lawyer, CFO, head snowmaker, VM manager, VP of retail, VP of F&B and others have either quit or been fired. What a mess.

On to HUPP stuff.

I told the machinist that I had lost my job and we were leaving in a month or less...so FINISH IT! We literally, stopped on the way out of town, IN THE MOVING TRUCK, to pick up the freshly finished parts. How's that for cutting it close! The work on the parts, however, was fantastic and the guy really put a lot more hours into it than he charged me for. He did well.

The following are a few pics of the "reman'ed parts"...

Here are the bearing that we chose to use. The six, sealed ball bearings are for the ends of the axle shaft; the wheel bearings. There are going to be three per side. Total over kill. The wheel seal will go on the outside of those bearings. The seal will actually FIT into the housing now, and fit the shaft! No more oiled brake shoes. The large ball bearings are for the diff carrier.

Here is one reman'ed shoe, and the rebuilt brake actuators. The old ones were so worn out, and the housing hogged out too. They wobbled all over the place. Now? Nice, tight fit...smooth operation.

Here is the respective, rebushed bores for the brake actuators. They were visibly "oval" before.

Here is the new Ring gear (thanks to Lawler Gear), on the assembled diff.

Here is the freshly "faced" Torque Tube Flange.

Now the diff case flanges, I asked him to do two things;

1. "Face" them, so they were flat and would seal w/o a gasket

2. Drill for dowel pins, so they they'd assemble the same every time

Both those things are a boon for getting a correct set up of the gears. How can you set diff bearing preload when crushing a paper gasket? I don't know. Get rid of the gasket. Anyway, the face was out of flatness, by a whopping 1/32"!! Yikes. No wonder the thing leaked. And who knows if the two axle tubes were even pointing in the same direction. Anyway, surface is flat and true, dowel pins will be pressed in by me and I can start setting up the gears and bearing preload.

Here is the "new" ends of the axle shafts. Bearing surface, sealing surface, and taper, all rebuilt. Nice. Note that the new bearing won't be running ON the axle shaft as the originals did.

Here are two pics of who I'm going to align and set preload on the diff carrier bearings. The thing originally had about 1/4" worth of shim stock behind each side of bearings. This didn't work at all, and the diff was basically "floating" around in there, making a mess of the bearings, and R&P gears. I feel that this is a better solution.

Edited January 28, 2013 by Tom400CFI (see edit history)

[Tom400CFI]

Made some more progress and thought I'd post a few more pics...

Diff end of the torque tube, here is the bearing solution; two sealed ball bearings to support the shaft...

...Followed by a tapered roller to take the thrust. Other end of the TT uses a plain, sealed ball bearing...

Here is the new shaft...

Shaft with tapered bearing, gear, and spacer for pinion depth in place...

Shaft in the tube...

Thrust Bearing on...

Spacer and gear on too...

Shaft poking out the other (trans) end..

I need to have about .20" removed from the spacer behind the pinion, to get the pinion depth right,

....then I can work on setting the backlash and the carrier bearing preloads. Then...ASSEMBLE! The only thing that I don't have clarity on is how to attach the pinion to the drive shaft; the shaft is splined, and Lawler cut a groove for a Circlip to retain the gear. I don't like that design, and the gear has a small amount of play on the splined shaft. I think that I may try red Loctite, the tack weld the nose of the gear to the shaft. Any thoughts there?

Edited April 20, 2013 by Tom400CFI (see edit history)

[F&J]

the gear has a small amount of play on the splined shaft. I think that I may try red Loctite, the tack weld the nose of the gear to the shaft. Any thoughts there?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

I would not tack weld or weld solid. Tacks won't hold with different hardness...(especially if there was slop)in my past experiences, and what i have seen on old repairs.

If you have a way to compensate for that play, and get the gear perfectly centered; Locktite makes a product for filling in slop, on bearing races, etc. So, it must be pretty strong. I had some from a Caterpillar dealer with their name, but it was made by Locktite. I believe it was green, and I believe it was rated to .005" gaps.

[Tom400CFI]

Copy that...and thanks for your input. I like the Loctite idea as it doesn't involve heating, and you're right..it is wicked strong stuff.

[Guest Edgar Bowen]

Loctite 680 is the grade which stands up to heat and is nearly as good as a weld. I don't know its colour. It is a while since I had my diff apart so I can't remember how I Fastened on the drive shaft pinion. I will be taking it apart soon to attend to some oil leaks and will let you know if it isn't too late. I do remember I had to fit an oil seal on the wheel side of the diff carrier bearing on the left side because the pinion was pumping oil down the axle tube.

I think the machining of the diff housings was inaccurate when originally manufactured because mine was running out 1/8th inch making the whole rear axle V shaped. I had to have it re machined and then compensated for the loss of metal with a steel gasket between the two halves.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Edgar Bowen (see edit history)

[Tom400CFI]

Thanks for the post, Edgar.

My housing the flange was off square by a whopping 1/32". I agree with you; the machining (and casting) of the parts was pretty bad.

I think that I'm going to use the Loctite 680, and also a counter sunk machine screw, screwed into the end of the shaft, with a head that extends wide enough to capture the ID of the gear.

[Tom400CFI]

Well, one step forward and several back. Moved..AGAIN...this time back into our own home. Moving sucks.

I settled on a solution for retaining the pinion gear that I am happy with. MUCH happier than the manufacturers solution. I drilled tapped and installed a countersunk allen into the end of the gear and shaft. See pics, and yes, I am still using Loctite to help retain/stabilize the gear.

Now for the "steps back". With the pinion depth properly set, and the pinion properly retained, I happily moved on to setting backlash. Well that "project" lasted about 5 minutes and I discovered that the ring gear had run out. About .030" or more. No way I can set backlash with that. Further investigation showed me that the flange and shoulder that the ring gear mounts on the differential case was severely mis-machined (originally, I assume), and it appeared to be my problem. I took the differential case to a machine shop and had them weld up, then cut back down that face.

After that, we slapped the ring gear on and @#$@#%!!! Ring gear STILL had runout (~.020" now). I finally placed just the ring gear on my diff case bearing, spun it w/the dial indicator and...it's bent/warped. The ring gear, brand new...is freakin' bent. In the following pic, you can see markings that show where/how it is bent.

L=Low point

M=Mid

H=High point

You can also see from this, that the warping is not symmetric; it is concentrated mostly in one spot...

I'm going to overnight the gear to Lawler today, and they're going to try to fix it....FINGERS CROSSED!

In the mean time, I'm debating using the old ring gear here...

...but everything I know about Ring and pinions says that if I do, the mis-matched gears will basically chew each other up. Plus, I already spend money for nice, NEW gears.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Tom400CFI (see edit history)

[Guest Edgar Bowen]

I feel greatly for you Tom. I ended up machining the housing to fit a T Ford dif gear set. The T Ford parts also had to be adapted slightly. It has proved reliable and the upside is more speed.

[1910Hupp]

Sorry Tom I feel for you as well. After pulling my motor recently to replace the camshaft which in the end necessitated a new cam and bottom end rebuild. I have now developed a rattle when the car is warm .Only intermittent at idle in the back of the motor or clutch /gearbox area -It really sounds like something is loose in there and bouncing around . So out comes the motor/gearbox again to investigate this . Frustrating aren't they ! Karl

[Tom400CFI]

Thanks for the nice comments guys. This IS frustrating...especially since I have a deadline. The frustration isn't so much the CAR...that is a little frustrating when you discover something that was made so poorly, but everything can be fixed. The real frustration for me is the PEOPLE. I didn't mention this above, but the FIRST time that I took the diff carrier to the machine shop to have it trued up, they had it for three days, charged me $300 and when I got it back...the flange for the ring gear still wasn't true! Geeze! I took it back and stood there and watched them cut it again in a CNC lathe (the pic above) and I could see it go from totally out of whack, to nice and true. Progress, but I had to "baby sit" the process to make it happen.

Now with the ring gear, I sent it back to the place that made it. I spoke with them yesterday to confirm that they had received it and were working on it. They were so that was good. Unfortunatly the gentleman who I spoke with bascially told me that ring gears are never true. He said that on most modern cars, when you buy a new R&P, the ring gear has runout anyway. He was basically saying that he couldn't understand why runout was a problem for me when "everyone else uses ring gears that have runout". He also explained that when you heat treat a gear, it's going to warp...now way to avoid it.

This is BS. New cars' ring gears aren't warped and they do not have run out. There is no possible way to set backlash with any ring gear that has runout! They emailed me this AM saying that "WE HAVE TRUED UP THE MOUNTING SURFACE AS BAST AS CAN BE DONE. THIS PART WILL BE SHIPPED TODAY." ...so we'll see how it came out, but for $1800...that thing better be straight.

So while the car presents it's challenges, I accept and enjoy solving those challenges. It's dealing with people who don't "get it" that presents the major challenge. A co-worker of mine used to say, "If you don't have people problems, you don't have problems". It's true. I SO WISH that I had machining tools in my garage.

Karl, I'm bummed to hear that you're having noise in your motor...but curious to hear what is causing it. Good luck w/your investigation!!

-Tom

Edited June 5, 2013 by Tom400CFI (see edit history)

[Tom400CFI]

Fired it up last night! First time the engine has fired in several years. Wow. Anyway, fired right up and sounds good, which was nice. No reason why it shouldn't have, but still, it's nice when it does. I set my timing at 15* BTC and I think it's about the same as it was before I took it apart (didn't check it when I took it apart), based on the way it runs and sounds.

I discovered a couple things, one I predicted, one that I did not and am a little disappointed about. When I replaced all the clutch bushings with roller bearings, I hoped that it would dramatically reduce friction. It did, which created good results..and a bad one. I can put it in second gear, depress the clutch pedal, and turn the transmission output shaft by hand. That would have been impossible before. So the bearings work. Unfortunately, they work so well, that when the engine is running and you depress the clutch, the input shaft of the trans never stops spinning! The "drag" of the oil on the multiple clutch disks is far greater than the drag of the bearings, so when you release the clutch, the disks keep spinning at engine speed. This makes it impossible to put into gear w/o a little grinding. I don't know what to do about that...or if I should do anything. There is very little (no meaningful) inertia to the disks, so moving it into 1st gear quickly results in very little grind -more like a "whack"....it's basically very similar to clicking a dirt bike into gear from neutral. I'm not sure what to think about this issue.

Still waiting on the ring gear. Thing better be straight when it arrives, but I don't have much hope that they were able to "fix" a warped gear.

[Guest Edgar Bowen]

Great to hear you have had the engine running Tom. Your problem with the clutch sounds to be of your own making and simple to fix. Have you put a heavy oil in the gearbox? If you have, drain it all out and flush the gearbox with kerosine because it runs on engine oil. I use an SAE 20-50 multigrade oil in both engine and gearbox.

I check and top up the engine oil every 1½ - 2 hours running time and change the engine oil only, every 10 hours of running time. It takes a mere 1 litre (2 pints), and with no filter I figure that is cheap insurance. When I pulled the engine down after 150 hours work it was as clean as a whistle with no sludge.

You will find the gearbox performs beautifully and with a little practice you will not only change from low to high but by double de-cutching from high into low as well. I generally wait until the speed drops to 10 MPH before slipping the lever into neutral, revving hard and then moving it into low. Actually I always double de-clutch going into high speed as well to preserve the gears. If you get a lot of chatter when you let out the clutch it means that it needs tightening up on the coil spring. That is done with the three square holed screws accessible through the gearbox cover. If you have a 1910 Model B, tough luck because there is no adjustment.

From Edgar Bowen

[Tom400CFI]

Thanks for the tips Edgar. I'm running Valvoline 75w-90 full synthetic gear oil in the trans, which is about the same viscosity as 20w-50 engine oil that you are running.

I received the ring gear back today, and it was still f'ed. It was less bent than when I sent it, but still bent, and in two places. Spinning it w/my dial indicator on it, the dial indicator would show tow "high spots" and two "low spots" per revolution. I"m running out of time, here and getting anxious, so I worked on the gear myself and got it pretty darn true. I think that it's about as good as it's going to get. I'm going to move forward w/the assembly of the rear as it is.

[KenHupp20]

Hi Tom, Nice to hear you are getting close. Did you replace the clutch shifter ring thrust washer ( #221 1/2 - the big bronze washer) with a roller thrust bearing ?

The bronze acts as a clutch brake ( also a hill brake) .

You might try shifting into reverse first.

Ken

[Tom400CFI]

Yeah, I replaced every both the throw out bushing and the thrust bushing with roller/needle thrust bearings. I wanted to eliminate the friction that makes the car "brake" when you depress the clutch pedal for several reasons, but I completely failed to think about the friction between the disks when the clutch is depressed from oil/close proximity of the disks.

The thing will work, it's just disappointing that it will always grind or bang going into gear now, and shifting UP 1>2 will be tough going up hill, as the motor will have to slow all the way down to 2nd gear speed before you can go to second w/o a grind. My goal was to eliminate friction and try to improve shifting but there just isn't any great solution and that is b/c of the wet clutch design.

We'll see how it drives for real, soon I guess. Thanks for the comments

-Tom

[Tom400CFI]

UPDATE....and then I need HELP.

More progress on the rear. Here are the new rear wheel bearings. There are three on each side. Load rating is 2400 lbs, so with 6 back there, my GRWR should be >12,000 lbs!

Here is the seal solution. No more "oiled" brakes!! Woo-hoo!

Here is a pic showing my dowel/locating pins....

Rear assembled...

Getting a little help with the brakes...

Now for the HELP! part....

I installed the new tires onto the rims. Learned a couple things about that, that sped up the process...one of which is that the "trash bag method" sucks. It didn't help the tire go on appreciably easier, and then I couldn't get the thing out! I had to pull the tire again, to get the trash bag out. Anyway got the tires on and went to pack the wheel bearings and put the wheels on. Upon cleaning the races, I found this on the outer race....

I don't know if you can see in the pic but the race looks BEAT. Also, it LOOKS like there is some kind of steel ring pressed onto the outer most part of the race (?) and that part looks broken....or something. To check, I put the balls in the outer race, then took the inner race/nut and put in on the balls -my intent was to spin it and see how rough it felt. Well, I couldn't even test that, b/c the I/D of the inner race/nut hit the I/D of the outer race (in the hub) before the inner race/nut contacted the balls! That's how shot, the outer race (in the hub) is! Yikes. I checked the other wheel and it was the same. SO, The outer race needs to come out. I used a bearing punch to push the race out of the hub, and this is what I got;

The race came with the threads that the hub cap screws onto. Did I break the end of the hub off?? IDK. Here is a pic of the hub...which has what looks like....and outer bearing race! WTF!?

Well, I decided to try to pull that piece of steel/ring out of the outer race. I used a seal puller tool, and applying NOT much pressure, this happened...

So I don't know WHAT is going on w/this hub/bearing assy. Man, I am frustrated. I was really hoping to actually DRIVE the car today, but that isn't going to happen. What do I do now? Any clarification on what the hub assy is supposed to look like? THANKS in advance!

-Tom

[Guest Mochet]

Tom... What ball-bearing sizes are you using on the wheels?

Use soap (or tire lubricant) on your tires to help them slip over the rims. The trash bag method works nicely, except when it doesn't!

Phil

[Tom400CFI]

The balls that I have are very slightly smaller than 3/8 inch on the outside (where the problem is). They are .372" or so...probably from wear. The inner balls are .513" -probably supposed to be "1/2" " but like almost everything on this car, the actual measurements aren't quite what you'd think they would be.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Tom400CFI (see edit history)