Tom400CFI

'10 Hupp drive train repairs...

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With the rubbing only on one side I'm thinking the worn out carrier bearing plus a worn wheel bearing are the problem.

I do respect Edgar's comments and stand amazed at the amount of knowledge on these cars and their various parts,and evolution.

But I would suggest if the axles and hubs were not correct it would appear on both wheels, also if they were not correct the problem would have presented itself in the first mile ( if not 50 feet). How many miles would you say the car has since it's last restoration ?

Hope that helps,

Ken

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Hey Ken, I hear your reasoning on the rear, for sure. I'd guess that the car probably has well over 30,000 miles on it since the last restoration. There were many a summer where it would go over 2000 miles in the one summer...and it's been over 50 years since any mechanical restorations. In all those years, it's recieved a Magnito and a Crankshaft...and I'm pretty sure that's about it.

I don't know how long the rubbing has been an issue, but as long as I have worked on the car (10 years or so) it's been problem, and the "solution" that was in place when I took over was running the right wheel loose on the tapered axle. Which is why the tapers are all f'ed up. :) If I attempted to tighten the axle nut on the right side, the right wheel would lock up.

FYI, the 4th picture only opens partially. I can't view the entire pic. The rest show up fine though.

-Tom

Edited by Tom400CFI (see edit history)

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Hi Tom,

Ken kindly posted the pictures for me showing the difference between Model B and later model hubs. The B is the long one with aluminium cap. Later models have the short hub with brass cap as on your car. The hub on your wheel is neither. It is probably the later hub modified to fit your rear end on the tapered axles. If you happen to remove the hub from the wheel (I'm not suggesting you do) all will be revealed because Model B hubs are fitted to the wheel from the inside with a plate on the outside and the others are fitted from the outside using the hub flange for the outside with no extra plate because the brake drum is on the inside. The correct hubs match the front wheel hubs.

I think Ken is probably right about the bearings in the dif being the cause of the trouble. If your tapers are not giving a tight fit though, grinding them will only make things worse.

There are a few options open to you. The one I would choose is to have new hubs made to fit the existing axles with whatever compensations might be needed, and made to look like the originals from the outside i.e. a copy of the front hubs. The fitter and turner would want the axles to make a perfect fit of the tapers. He would set up his lathe to do axle and hub at the same time. Cheeper would be new axles to fit the present hubs.

Edgar

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In case you are interested the Torrington bearings are AXK4565 + thin pressure washers to fill the 7/32 inch gap between clutch drum and crankcase (check this gap, bearing in mind wear on the crankcase) and AXK4065 for internal Torrington bearing behind the clutch spring (if required) with pressure plates LS 4060 & AS4060. From memory this set up obviates the problem with the shoulder on the brass bush as it fits around it (However my memory is playing tricks on me now).

Good luck with the work, Tom.

This is good information and I'm using some of the same bearings. For me, the LS4060 and it's respective races didn't fit over the shoulder of my clutch housing. I had to throw it in the lathe and cut that bit down, even with the rest of the shaft, then polish it. Came out sweet, and I'm confident that it will work really well.. WAY better than the bushing stack that originally resided there.

I didn't have to replace the "behind the spring" ball thrust bearing, but I am also replacing the "throw-out bushing" with a needle thrust bearing too. In my case, I'm using a TRD-4458, which fits awesome, and I think it will work really well. Both bearings have 7000+ lbf ratings, and 7000+ RPM limits...so I think it's safe to say that they'll last a while in this application! :)

-Tom

Edited by Tom400CFI (see edit history)

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UPDATE: (sorry, no pics -didn't have time for pics on this session)

SO. My time to work on the Hupp is very limited. I've moved, but kept the car in my old house. Rented the house and told the renters that the back of the garage was "off limits", until I get the car done and out of there...along with all of my tools. I went up last weekend, with some new parts in hand. I finished assembling the transmission (with the proper main shaft end-play), got it attached to the engine, complete with all new roller thrust bearings on both sides of the clutch. Smoooooth as silk now! Should make a marked improvement for clutch-in operation, going forward.

I pulled the Magneto and adjusted all the valves while they were easy to get to. Then, I installed the engine/trans assy, hooked up all the shifting linkage, installed the radiator/crank, headlights, and hooked up all the ancillaries....engine and trans are almost ready to go! :) Only thing that I need to do are install (time) the Mag. Anyone know what the timing is supposed to be set at? I will find TDC using a "poor-man's" dial indicator and pointer, then I can set the timing to a spec from there...if there is one.

Now I'm waiting for the new R&P gears and machine work on the rear axle housing. Once I get a good stock-pile of parts for those items, I will head back for another "session". I THINK I can wrap it up in two more weekends of actual work. We'll see.

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Hi Tom, I hope you gave your valve tappets the correct clearance. Most owners follow modern convention and then wonder why their engine is under powered. The clearances must be at least 16 thou for inlet and 18 for exhaust. I use 18 for inlet and 20 for exhaust.

The following is exactly and precisely the correct timing for the magneto. Don't deviate from it.

TIMING THE MAGNETO

1. Remove the quill from the back of the magneto. It slides forward off the top of the thing that looks like a little spark plug. Undo the two little studs that hold down the alloy cover between the magnets on the driving end of the magneto and lift this cover off carefully, avoiding any damage to the carbon brush underneath the cover.

2. Place the magneto in position on the side plate bracket. Turn the flywheel to T.D.C. position with No.1 valve closing and No.2 valve opening, and then turn the flywheel one more full revolution to T.D.C. again. This time the flywheel will be in the position where No.1 piston is at the top of its compression, or firing stroke when the spark is needed. Check that T.D.C. on the flywheel is 9-10mm (3/8ths inch) to the right of the punch marks on the front of the cylinder barrel.

3. Now turn the magneto armature until the big brass gear inside the front of the magneto (behind the distributor cap) is in the position where the carbon brush holder is at about 25 minutes past the hour (looking from the front of the engine) and the edge of the armature where the alloy plate was removed, has an opening of 9-10mm (3/8ths inch) between it and the magneto body. This is where the armature cuts the magnetic lines and produces a spark. Holding the armature in this position, marry the magneto drive gear to the timing gear on the side plate, and screw up only the two studs that fasten the alloy gear cover to the side plate. The Hupp 20 works best with the spark in this one position. There is no point in being able to manually advance or retard the spark. Because of its low compression ratio, the engine works with a fixed spark. It is that simple.

4. Push the magneto against the timing gear and then withdraw it very slightly so that the gears are not touching. Line the magneto up parallel with the engine and tighten the four studs securing it to the side plate from underneath. Turn the crank again and make sure there is still no gear meshing noise, bar rattles. Replace the alloy cover and the quill in the back of the magneto and replace the distributor cover on the front of the magneto, making sure that the carbon brush is still in place. Check that the lead from No.1 spark plug goes to the 25 minutes past the hour terminal on the distributor cover, that No.2 lead goes to 10 past the hour, that No. 4 goes to 5 to the hour, and that No.3 goes to 20 to the hour.

5. If your magneto is not of the fixed spark type, Bosch DU4, but has an adjustable spark, it would be wise to check that the points are opening at exactly the right time. With the cap taken off the magneto points, turn the engine until the flywheel is 9-10mm (3/8ths inch) past T.D.C. on the firing stroke of No.1 cylinder. The carbon brush on the magneto’s brass wheel will then be positioned 25 minutes past the hour and the points should be just starting to open. If they are not, advance or retard the spark adjustment as required. It sometimes happens that even when the spark is advanced or retarded, the points do not open at the right time. In that case, remove the sleeve that holds the cams. It just pulls off when the cap is removed. A slot on the rim of the sleeve allows the sleeve to move within a limited range, but that range may not let the points open at the correct time. If that is the case, on the body of the magneto a small grub screw will be found which acts as a stop for each end of the slot when the sleeve is either advanced or retarded. Observe whether there is another hole in which the grub screw can be placed to allow the sleeve to operate in a different position, and try that. This problem only occurs when a magneto is obtained from a source other than another Hupp 20.

6. Replace the inlet manifold with carburettor. Connect fuel pipe, accelerator, etc. and the job is done. With the compression cocks still open, turn the crank handle rapidly, and there should be no gear noise at all.

7. Replace the crankcase draining petcocks and put new oil in the engine. It takes about a litre, half a litre for each pair of cylinders. Start the engine and check that there is no whine. Presto! the job’s done and the whole procedure will have taken a novice about 2 hours with everything on hand. This time includes fitting the side plate and removal and refitting the front mudguard (fender) and inlet manifold with carburretor.

ADDENDUM

Regarding the timing of the magneto. Sometimes the magneto itself can be incorrectly timed, as happened with two magnetos that I had reconditioned. Then when I followed the driver’s handbook instructions for timing the magneto, I could not get it to work. The timing had been changed on the sleeve that opens and closes the points. Follow the above instructions to get it correctly timed.

Edited by Edgar Bowen (see edit history)

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Excellent information.

Here are the diagrams and text from the owner's instruction booklet.Same as Edgar's instructions but thought you might enjoy.

Ken

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Hi Tom, I hope you gave your valve tappets the correct clearance. Most owners follow modern convention and then wonder why their engine is under powered. The clearances must be at least 16 thou for inlet and 18 for exhaust. I use 18 for inlet and 20 for exhaust.

I'm a little confused.

Ken posting the Owners Instruction Booklet pics REMINDED ME that I have one!! (duh!)

So I dug it out and thumbed through it last night and found two references to setting valve lash;

one says "no more than the thickness of a playing card" and the other says, more specifically, "No greater than .004""

Setting your valve lash at .020...you're probably losing a good chunk of your total valve lift, and a good bit of duration, as well. What has led you to settle on that number? I set mine at .008" and thought that was being generous, considering that there are no pushrods (to expand), just valve on lifter.

Edited by Tom400CFI (see edit history)

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I have another question ;can the timing be set by the cigarette paper in the breaker points method?

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Hello Tom, I set my valve tappets originally at 6 and 8 thou and burnt the valves, so a mechanic friend asked me if I had another engine for him to check the valve settings on, which I did, and we found the other engine had the tappet gaps set at 18 thou. "There you are," he said, "there's your problem." Since then I have driven over 6,000 miles in my Hupp and it has a better performance than most other Model 20s I know. Yes, my driver's handbook says a card thickness but it begs the question, what sort of card? 20 thou is not very thick. It is like asking, how long is a piece of string?

As for the magneto points gap, I think mine is set at 12 thou.

Regards, Edgar

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Interesting. Most of my valves were set at ~.008"...which helped me settle on that for a spec. There were about three that were REALLLY loose, and one that was really tight -about .004". And we've always felt that THIS Hupp went better than most! :) It tops 50 mph which is strong fro a '10 Hupp in my limited experience.

We'll see. When I start it, I'll get it as hot as I can (climb a big hill in first gear) then check the lash again, quick. See what we find. Thanks for the input!

Ken, are you talking about altering the timing using the points setting? Smaller opening = later spark, and larger opening = earlier spark (more advanced timing). Yes you could alter the timing some using that method, but you may also affect the spark intensity, depending on how saturated the windings are at the point of breaking the circuit.

If you're asking about simply setting the points' opening SPEC from a piece of paper...sure. As long as they open and break the circuit, you'll get a spark. But you may be able to "tune" the magneto to perform differently based on points setting.

Edited by Tom400CFI (see edit history)

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I was referring to the method of using a piece of cigarette ( extremely thin) paper to feel the points beginning to open, thus cause spark. Not to set the gap.It seems like a much simpler method than taking the back apart.

This old fashioned method works well when you don't have a timing light.

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MOving has sucked, with regard to this project. But FINALLY, things are moving again...resulting in more questions.

The rear whee hubs are all "hogged out" and the axle shaft ends are haggard. The machinist wants to put the hubs in the lathe and rebuild the ID of the hub, then rebuild the ends of the axle shafts. To put the hubs in the lathe, requires removing the hubs from the wheels. I have never done this. He says that it looks like there is some kind of epoxy holding the wood/hub assy together.

Anyone have experience with rear hubs? If so...please talk to me about rear hubs and how they're assembled. One positive side effect of rebuilding the hubs is that I could potentially get the wheels to run completely true -which they never have.

Thanks!

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Do you ,and the machinist think they are too far gone to simply lap them in for a better fit?

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We feel that lapping could work, and we may go that route...but we feel that re-machining would be the BEST method...if hub disassembly is a reasonable option.

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G,day to all and Tom

Well tom you seem to be forging ahead blindly or otherwise. I can see from your picture that the back of your crankcase needs to be resurfaced,the oil groves are gone on their outer radius. Seems someone has placed a lip seal at the rear main. Whatever you are going to push against it with your clutch be it needle roller or original type phosper bronze it is going to try to dish.Edgar and I dissagree on the needle rollers Imagine the speed those needles are doing with your foot on the clutch at the lights Never pack back the clutch It needs all the engagement length on the two keys which are dot marked as are the clutch components. Make sure the clutch hub is not going right through and bottoming on the crankshaft web before your new bearing is engaged Did you find the mainshaft end float adjustment, its under the thrust washer in the top gear and is a shim pack.Most folk here use Ford Crown and pinion a fraction of other cost. More if you need it.

Max Burke Nulkaba Australia

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G,Day to all and Tom

We use o12 thou on both inlet and exhaust valves. We use austinetic valves in inlet and exhaust .When very hot after a heavy load chek what you have. If more than 8 to 10 thou you can bring back the clearence as there is not enough lift in the first place to loose any.Edgars valves may have tremendous stem expansion. By the way we took out all the fibre blocks and used the last type of threaded adjusters and caps with split lock cotters We have not had valve trouble.

Tom ,going to the back and your hubs. Surely your early car would have run parallel hubs and axles. Seems Hup or a subsequent repairer did mix and match a bit. Our Mod D has straight hubs and axles but with adjustable bell torque tube and the large brake drums.Our mod C roadster with original enclosure kit has taper hubs and axles and a one piece torque tube with no hyatt bearing ,adjustment by shims. It has the larger brake drums.Cast in the rear axle housings around the rivets is a white metal bearing block . It is to restrain the grease migrating along the axle. If you go to new axles and they are larger dia at this point they wont pass through. Melt out the babbit as you cant drive it out.Jobbers (yankee term) stocked hard steel shims to take up axle taper slack.That was in the 1950s but you can make them to give it a try. Our C is about 250 earlier than our D.@# 9499 Landed in Australia September 1911 More if you need it

Max Burke Nulkaba Australia

Edgar,Why is your entry not on the list for the National in Ipswitch.? Its almost next door for you.

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Removal of hubs from a wheel is easy but be sure to have new hub bolts on hand for re-assembly. I note in previous pictures that you have 8 inch brake drums which means the bolts have counter sunk heads on the inside of the brake drum with nuts on the outside. Why you need new bolts is because the old ones are peened to stop the nuts coming undone. You will have to grind off the peen. Get new bolts that can be held with hex keys for tightening up.

Drift out the old bolts and then supporting the spokes, knock the hub out off the wheel with a wood mallet taking care not to damage the thread for the hub cap. You should have had straight axles with the hubs held on by a pin through the hub. If the pin is still there drift it out.

If the hub is glued in with epoxy, start by easing off the brake drum with a knife or spatula between it and the spokes. Then you may be able to get the hub out easier. If the worst comes to the worst, number each spoke, then remove the rivets that hold on the clincher rim, warm it up and tap out the felloes with spokes, marking everything so it goes back together exactly the same way. Now you may be able to ease out the spokes one at a time and so remove the hub without wrecking the spokes. If you have to make new spokes, I'll tell you how to do that too (without a lathe). Good luck.

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G,day to all and Edgar

Edgar ,would you agree that Toms Hup has been subject to mix and match to a very wide degree. Notice the crown wheel carrier bearings. Cup and cone Ball.I have seen only one like it before and that was model A. He has only 2 planet gears on a pin not a cross The bronze block may be date stamped,many are. All A or early B. I recon the axles and back hubs have been changed to taper when the torque tube was changed to an adjustable Bell. The front stub axles are the early type ball race type.I agree with you the gearbox looks like Tom will get another run out of it after he puts some teeth back on the low gear cluster. In your first post Tom you said you wanted to keep her running and not have a major rebuild. I do hope you were laughing. Edgar ,is your entry in for the Hup rally?

Max Burke Nulkaba Australia

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G,day to all and Edgar

Edgar ,would you agree that Toms Hup has been subject to mix and match to a very wide degree. Notice the crown wheel carrier bearings. Cup and cone Ball.I have seen only one like it before and that was model A. He has only 2 planet gears on a pin not a cross The bronze block may be date stamped,many are. All A or early B. I recon the axles and back hubs have been changed to taper when the torque tube was changed to an adjustable Bell. The front stub axles are the early type ball race type.I agree with you the gearbox looks like Tom will get another run out of it after he puts some teeth back on the low gear cluster. In your first post Tom you said you wanted to keep her running and not have a major rebuild. I do hope you were laughing. Edgar ,is your entry in for the Hup rally?

Max Burke Nulkaba Australia

Tom, Max and all,

I have studied your pictures carefully Tom and can say that your Hupp is unquestionably a Model B made before mid 1911 but the original rear axles and hubs have been replaced with modified Model C hubs and axles. Before I tell you what to do, don't worry about the 1st gear cluster. It will work fine as it is, provided you adjust the gearbox correctly. Building up the teeth is fraught with peril and it isn't worth doing that.

I really would consider replacing your differential carrier bearings with Timkens (numbers provided earlier in this thread). This would give a really positive pre-loading of the bearings using your existing washers to line up the crown wheel with the pinion and the grub screws in the diff housing which you point at with a finger in one picture, as the fine adjustment. Replace the grub screws with square head studs for ease of adjustment with a lock nut to hold them firmly.

I recommend having the inside of the diff housings machined to fit oil seals on the wheel side of the bearings otherwise diff oil gets pumped down the axle tube and comes out onto the brake linings no matter what oil you use.

I see that the wheel bolts have been welded to the brake hubs, so leave them alone. Undo the nuts holding on the wheel hubs and drift off the hubs from inside the drums. If epoxy has been used run a knife, spatula, or if necessary a hacksaw blade to separate the hubs from the brake drums. The wood spokes are clamped between the hub and brake drum. After the hubs have been built up and matched to the axles, you can put them back on the wheels and loctite the nuts on after you make sure every things lines up correctly with the back axles assembled.

I found that the torque tube has a tendency to come loose on the diff. housing, so use of loctite on the studs and nuts is a good idea. Make sure the pinion meshes properly with the crown wheel.

Max is concerned about your diff spider having only two sun wheels. That is correct for a Model B. Models C and on had three sun wheels.

Max I sent in my application and fee for the Australian national veteran rally back in March. I am still in the UK until July 2nd.

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G,day to all' Tom & Edgar.

Hurry back Edgar or we wont be able to understand your speech on your return.

Of course Toms low gear will still run BUT it is simple to set it up in the mill while the original teeth are still there after putting them back with 6/80 or something simular.I expect if you have to pay someone for this work then it may be wrought with problems but I do my own . I admit it helps to have a sponsor for the welding rods.Now then Edgar you did not say if you had encountered the cup and cone with loose balls on the CW carrier. I have seen only one but i would recon they were only used in Model A What say you? Further when John took down the torque tube on car no 9223 there was no pin installed in the uni joint. Imagine the effect on the backlash at the other end. It was the rivitted Bell and a 2 bearing type(no Hyat) I replaced it with a screwed Ball t tube

In our touring car I have two Timken bearings back to back in each of the rear wheels with a lip seal on the oil side and another in the retaining nut which screws onto the axle housing to retain the assembly. Preload is by a selective fit sleeve. Our Qld roadster is in original style but not original parts and leaks at the drain holes and seeps into the brakes

Max Burke Nulkaba Australia

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G,day Tom ,Edgar and all.

No Edgar Im not concerned about two only planitary gears at all. What i am saying is look to the bronze block for a date Stamped into the block.Looks to me that with the Ball carrier bearings and the two unit diff gear, the axles ,hubs and torque tube have been swaped about in earlier times. Ford drivers stop the rear hub oil leaks by taking off the hub and pulling the hyatt bearing. Then these resoursfull fellows cut about 50 washers from feltex and ram them up the housing with a length of exhaust pipe untill no more will fit.Soaks up the leak to be sure.Trouble on Hup 20 the rivets protrude on the inside enough to prevent the felt going up to the babbit metal block there in.Tom have a good look where the torque tube studs onto the diff housing . If there are cracks(common) this is where you will find them. Run your oxy torch gently here and if there are cracks they will jump out at you.

Edgar, you are not on the national VCCQ rally entrants list.(Ipswich) Are you sure you didnt enter the Hup rally(Bundaburg) by mistake. They are seperate events a few days apart. I realise you had a lot of grief at the time that entries were called.There would still be time to sort it out with Trevor F.

Max Burke Nulkaba Australia

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