Just bought a 63 to fixup for my dad.

[tjthorson]

NOTE - I gave a little background to those who may be curious. For the tech part of my question, please jump to the asterisks below.

My dad was always a car guy. He got me started - he loved his cars, but didnt do much work on them. I kinda took it to the next level, repairing and bringing cars back from the dead as a hobby. My first car was a 72 Skylark custom. 350 2BBl. I grabbed a 455 from a junkyard out of a 70 Electra and I was hooked. I drove home with the 455 in my trunk and had to disassemble it in my driveway to make it light enough to get it out of the trunk by hand since I didnt have a lift. That was my first engine swap and I havent looked back. My current love is the Turbo Regal, specifically the 86/87 GNs and TTypes. But anyway.... The one car my dad has always brought up more then the others was his 65 Riviera. That was before years of Wildcats, Lesabres, Skylarks, etc. Even though it is not something I can just throw money at right now at my stage of life, last year I set out to find an old Riv (I figure 63-65 was close enough) to give him to enjoy. He is only 67, and good health - and I just felt the need to do this for him because I never want to say "If only I would have....." He would never do it on his own - figures he is too old, its too much money, etc....

So.... fast forward to MONTHS of searching on the internet, looking at every rust bucket from Rockford, Il to Iowa, to St. Louis, to Kentucky.... Since my budget is soooo limited, I needed to find something that needs work. I dont care about any mechanical work per se - Ill pull engines, rears, trans. I HATE RUST and Bodywork. And I dont have the money to pay someone to do it right. Sealing and patching surface rust is fine - even some small floor and trunk patch (that no one sees!) is OK. But fabbing up panels, and welding in rockers is not my thing.

After months of discouraging searches, I had begun to think about maybe getting him a high mileage Miata or some other toy to play with. Half asleep the other morning, I stumble on to this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&viewitem=&item=110144139907

I caught the auction within a few hours of it going up - couldnt believe the buy-it-now and that it was 2 hours from home. I immediately hit the buy-it-now and then tried to figure out how to come up with $2500. So - a few cash advances later, I am on my way tonight to pick up this 63. That being said - I am well familiar with everything concerning brakes, brake lines (I bet they are solid clogged with rust) - fuel lines, tank, etc. I am just going to pull the motor right away, and at the least clean it up, hone it, new seals gaskets and rings and button it up. So, I have a few questions for the experts.

**************************************************************************************************

This car I am sure is a 401 but I might get lucky and have a 425. I know where to find the casting mark for the 425 and will check. The big question here is I have heard the Buick engines from that era have a higher nickel content and are not subject to valve seat issues with unleaded gas. Is that actually true - or should we be running lead substitute through the thing?

If the carb is beyond savings from corrosion - and I want to put a generic Carter or something on it - any recommendations on model? I assume around a 600cfm ought to be plenty? ANyone play with needle and jet sizes to get me close?

I have never worked with a Dynaflow. That is the one piece I am really worried about. While the engine is out, should I just change the fluid and hope for the best since the car only had 67K when parked? Anything else I can check? Should I maybe just swap in a TH350 instead? Would my normal trans guy that works on 200-4r's and such even know what to do on a Dynaflow?

What about this rear CV joint thing I have heard about? Any manintence on that?> Should I just replace it for giggles?

Any other suggestions? Pitfalls? Stuff to check besides the usual? Its not going to be a show car - I just want to give him a nice driver to enjoy....

Thanks for your time!

[RivNut]

Congratulations on your purchase. I think your dad will be very pleased with what you're doing for him.

The 1963 is a unique Riviera. The first year for a new body style but the last year for the Dynaflow and the heater and a/c controls. There are some unique parts for this year - wheel covers, hood ornaments, tail lights emblems, etc. - in 1963, the Rivera still used the Buick logo instead of the Riviera R.

The question about what size engine can be found on this link to Buicks.net http://www.buicks.net/shop/reference/engine_ident_where.html J is the code for 1963, T is the code for a 401, and W is the code for a 425.

There's an AFB carb on ebay right now that will work on your car. The Carter AFB's are easier to work on, find parts for, and are more reliable than the Rochester 4GC's. Any AFB from 59 - 63 will work for you; it's the linkage that controls the transmission kickdown that makes the difference. Differences between years and displacements is usually due to jets and metering rods.

You are correct when you state that the high nickel content in the Buick heads precludes them from having to have hardened seats installed. Go to Yahoo groups and find the NailheadBuickGroup. Look in their archives for horror stories about installing hardened seats.

The dynaflow shouldn't be any problem for a confident trans repair shop. Buy yourself a Buick Bible (a 63 chassis manual) and a new kit if needed and the process described in the chassis manual should guide anyone attempting to overhauld one of these.

I haven't heard much about the CV joints but keep an eye on the carrier bearing for the drive shaft.

The second best tool for restoring one of these cars is membership in the Riviera Owners Association. www.rivowners.org

Classic fabrications makes some replacement panels for your Riv if you need to replace rocker panels, floor pans, etc. No quarter panels though.

From the Riviera Owners Assn. you can purchase a CD rom that has every tech article ever printed over the last 20 years. "If you cant' find it there, it ain't happened."

Good luck and keep us posted.

If you have some speciifc questions, contact me via PM.

[tim63riv]

Todd,

Looks like you got yourself and your dad a decent starting point!

I would go through the entire brake system right away, replacing wheel cylinders, brake hoses, master cylinder and if needed, the steel lines too. Most of these parts are still available at NAPA!

There is really nothing wrong with the Rochester 4GC and parts are still available for it.

If it were my car, I would try to gently wake the nailhead up before I pulled it out and tore it down. There is an advantage to getting the car running and to finding out what it needs and then repairing/overhauling it. You can then check the operation of the Dynaflow and power steering, rear axle, etc if you can get the engine to run. After a long time sitting, the valves may be stuck or rings may be seized to the cylinder walls, which would put you into overhaul mode. If the Nailhead is bad, they are VERY expensive to repair if you can't do the machine work yourself and they do have some issues that the average SBC machine shop just won't understand, like NO new valve seats!

Good luck with the project and let us know how you are progressing!

Take Care,

Tim

[tjthorson]

Thanks for all the info. I got the car home last night - it is unbelievable. It is the original paint for sure. The doors, rocker panels, quarters have ZERO rust. There are small rust bubbles along a few of the trim pieces and under the back window. No holes in the floor pans, but some scaly rust. I already ordered the POR-15. It rolls and steers fine (MAN is this a HEAVY car) - but the brake pedal doesnt even think about moving. I dont even think the car needs to be repainted - just small rust repair and touch up - but I may paint the whole thing anyway. Still has the old bias-plys on the car.... I watched it on the trailer on the way home - the suspension is still working - no extra bounce, I think the shocks even still work.

At the house I picked it up at - it was in a garage that was attached to the house and had bedrooms upstairs from the garage, so I bet it stayed fairly warm in the winter...

The leather even softens up with some conditioner. No real cracks in the leather and no foam showing. Ill need some new carpets and POR-15 the floors - no holes there either!!!!

Thanks all - I am going to start with the brakes, change the fluids, pull the plugs and fog the cylinders and try to fire it....

I am going to pull apart the carb and see what I am dealing with.

One more question - I havent dealt with a Buick engine with a distributor in the back... I can use a drill to spin up the oil pump, right (it should, I just want ot be sure there isnt some "nailhead" quirk where I would break something? Anyone know if it has the screwdriver slot in the oil pump shaft, or is it hex shaped? I made a tool for my Buick v6s, wanted to know if it will work. I want to spin up the pump and see it oil before I crank it.

One last thing - my dad has no idea I am doing this. It will be a total surprise....

[tim63riv]

Todd,

The car sounds better all the time! The oil pump drive is a slot like the Buick V-6's and you won't damage anything, the Nailhead pump is a submerged style pump so it primes quickly. Your old Rochester can look pretty groady(?)inside and still clean up nice and carb kits are still available from a number of sources. Go slow on the wake up and you might have minimal work to do to get the Ol' Riv back on the road where it belongs!

Take Care,

Tim

P.S. I won't tell Dad!

[tjthorson]

More info. I let the kids sleep in a little before taking them to camp and I decided to come to work late... Too excited... In the glove box was the owners manual, "Buick approved accessories" catalog, "63 Buick Color" brochure, showing paint chips and all the interior drawings, and the original "Personalized Identification Plate" card that he never sent in.

The trans fluid was nice and pink, oil was clean and full. Power steering fluid (looked like trans fluid?) and was clear. Brake fluid was clean and master cylinder was still not rusty inside.

Block casting numbers

JT 490 7J1056378

Heads - 1196914

Firewall Plate:

Style: 63-4747 FB19995

Trim 798J2 EE F(?) AIN

CC D 16 S 24

BTW - for those of you looking for a nice 63 Riv, I did find another one local to me in the Chicago area that was real nice, I just couldnt come up with the money. This is a running driving one with the 425...

http://chicago.craigslist.org/wcl/car/365359786.html

[RivNut]

Looks like you're in for a good time fixing this up and giving it to your dad. From the information that you listed from the block and trim tag, here's how it decodes:

JT = 1963

7J1056378 = VIN number, should match the number on your cowl tag

63-4747 = 1963 Riviera

FB19995 = Production #19,995 out of 40,000 that were built in 1963

798 = Interior: Saddle leather

EE = Spruce Green

All Rivieras from this era were built in Flint, MI.

There's a complete listing of these codes on the ROA website. http://www.rivowners.org/features/colortrim/63-65.html

From the Rivieras and options I've seen, this one is quite unusual. It has the leather seat option, but it has roll up windows and it doesn't have air conditioning. It surely started its life as a northern car.

I think if you follow the advice that Tim set forth, you shouldn't have much of a problem getting this rolling. In my first post, I mentioned finding an AFB carb because it was easier to work on, etc. I didn't mean that the 4GC couldn't be rebuilt, it's just that there are so many AFB's around they're really easy to find parts for and work on. The nice thing about the AFB is that there are no gaskets below the fuel level - you don't have to worry about fuel leaks from the outside of the bowl. However, the aluminum does have a tendency to corrode more than the potmetal of the Rochester. Make sure that if you take the carb off that you put the stainless heat shield gasket back between the carb and the intake manifold. The exhaust gasses in the crossover used to heat the carb will corrode that aluminum carb if it's left out.

Ed

[tjthorson]

All the windows roll down smoothly, and even the vent windows work. It has the wonderbar radio. I took more shots with my camera this morning - the underneat ones I just held the camera on the ground and shot them - I was wearing work clothes and couldnt get them dirty.

It also has the "wonderbar" radio for $90.30 and $39.56 for "tires" and $188.13 for what I think is the "Rusty Jones" treatment - I think that explains the undercoating....

I threw these pics up on my website - but its hidden from the main page in case my dad is browsing.

http://toddsplace.com/63riviera.htm

[Jim Cannon]

Todd-

Based on the Fisher Body number you give (FB19995) I would predict that your car was built in the first week of February, 1963. You can confirm this by looking at the data plate above the brake booster once again and look for a 2-digit number followed by a single letter. February=02 and the first week is the letter A. So see if you have a 02A in the upper left corner of the plate.

This looks to be a really good deal for you.

The most common place for this generation to rust out is at the lower corners of the back window. You remove the stainless trim and check it out. Water stands down in those corners and rusts it out. Then water goes into the trunk and rusts out the pan down there.

To remove trim around window glass, you need a flat blade that has a notch formed on the end. Slip it behind the clip and rock it to release the clip. See factory shop manual for Body.

Jim

[jartzh]

Just my opinion but I would start at the brakes and front end and suspension. Get them in good working order before I try it on the road. The center link is notorious for being worn out.

Then I would work on getting it started. Just to see if the internals are good. After it starts once, I would rebuild distrib, starter, water pump, power steering pump, alternator , voltage regulator. Nothing takes the joy out a project like getting stuck on the road during its test runs. And you know 44 year old parts are not trustworthy.

[tim63riv]

Todd,

Thanks for the link to the pictures, you have yoourself one fine looking Riviera there! I bet you can't wait for your Dad to see it! Hope the waking up process is going smoothly. Justin makes some good points about the brakes and steering. Can't wait for more updates!

Take Care,

Tim

[tjthorson]

Thanks Tim. Well, I havent done too much except pull the mat out of the trunk and start pulling up the interior carpeting. The trunk floor has one little 2 inch hole on the pass side where the wheel well meets the trunk floor. All appears to be from the back window leaking. The owner even appeared to know it was happening, since the is some old dried (looks like house type) caulk all around the back trim...

I havent pulled the trim yet to look, but that needs to get sealed ASAP....

On another note, my dad has seen the car - so at least I dont have to keep it a secret anymore. He is all excited about it - and started looking online for local car shows to attend next year!

My mom was hysterical for a few minutes.

I guess I never knew - this was the car they had the whole time they were dating. When they got married, and my mom got pregnant with me, he "settled down", and traded in his 65 Riv on a 69 LeSabre 4 door......

[1965rivgs]

Hi Todd,

Just a few observations...

CONSIDERING BUDGET IS A PRIMARY CONCERN...dont do the brakes first! Why concern yourself with stopping a car which doesn`t run yet?

First things first...get the engine running. Even just from a temporary fuel container instead of thru the on-car fuel system. If you find the engine needs a complete rebuild you will not have invested, potentially, several thousand dollars in brake and suspension work and be financially "stuck" in a car that would be better left to someone with more/deeper financial resources.

Once you are satisfied the condition of the engine justifies proceeding resist the temptation to go for a ride! It is now time to do the brakes, go thru the fuel system and produce a running/driving car. When you are able to use the car consistently for several weeks you will be in a position to make informed judgements as to how to proceed. Is the trans OK? Is the driveline OK?

Make a list and target your priorities based on your budget and initial or adjusted goals...

Make it go....Make it stop...then start restoring the car`s systems as needed.

More later for fear I may be "timing out"...anyone know how to disable that feature?

Tom Mooney ROA #56

[1965rivgs]

Hello again Todd,

Looked at the Ebay pics. Looks like a nice unmolested car. Hard to tell from the pics but upon first viewing the pics of the quarter panels it appears the paint has more "texture" than I would expect to see on an original paint car. In the pics it looks like enamel. As I stated, hard to tell from pics. You have inspected the car in person and are in a much better position to judge originality.

Dont discard the license plate frame in the trunk! That is the original rear and becoming very hard to find.

It seems you are in the Chicago area. If the Dynaflow needs attention I have a shop I have full faith in to do that trans successfully. Dont trust just anyone as there are tricks to obtain a leak free job and the Dynaflow is beyond obsolete for most shops/mechanics. I am also in the Chicago area so dont hesitate to drop a dime and give me a ring.

There is a maintenance concern in the driveline. The slip joint should be greased. It`s a PIA and shouldn`t be a concern for you at this point. Until you can take the car for a ride and evaluate the condition of the car as a running/driving unit don`t touch the driveline!

I wouldn`t bother pulling the dist to prime the oil system. Instead, start by cranking over the engine by hand for at least one full revolution to be sure there is no interference with moving parts. With a fully charged battery, crank the engine over repeatedly (not more than a minute at a time so the starter doesn`t overheat)and attempt to bring about some oil circulation. This method will also enable you to cycle the valvetrain to detect a possible stuck-open valve from the driver`s seat... While cranking listen for a consistent cranking speed which indicates there is compression on all cylinders. If the cranking speed rises rapidly or "flares" at consistent intervals you may have a cylinder which has no compression and therefore is providing no resistance to the starter. I am assuming at this point you have oiled down the cylinders and the rings are seated and not washed clean/dry by extended storage/excess fuel from "mechanical priming".

Get `er runnin` and we`ll help `ya from there!! Keep us posted...this is my favorite part of the game!! When the Q-Tip stuff starts, I lose interest...

Tom Mooney ROA #56

[1965rivgs]

Just a few more observations...

The 4GC carb has a cast iron base. The metal gasket is not necessary as in the aluminum AFB.

Also, did Fisher Body use a distinct and seperate number sequence for it`s Riviera bodies? Fisher produced thousands of bodies...is it possible the numbering sequence included Electras, Wildcats, etc making it incorrect to state "the 19,000th body number is the 19,000th Riviera produced in a total of 40,000". Hmmm....I dont have my data at hand for the `63 models and dont have time this A.M. to provide an answer....I`ll leave that up to Jim, Ed and any other `63 owners to inspect their car`s body number, the build date in the upper left hand corner and compare that data with calender/ total production. We should be able to arrive at some reasonable conclusions....should be interesting.

Tom Mooney

[RivNut]

Tom, et al.

The Riviera did have its own numbering system. If this car is prduction number 19,000 then it's number 19.000 of the 40,000 that were produced in 63.

I wholeheartedly agree with Tom's assessment. I bought a sight unseen (except for pictures) 64 Riv in AZ a couple of years ago. A friend took it to a local shop and had the engine tuned before I ever went to AZ. Once I knew that the engine and trans were solid, then I had it shipped up to KS and once it arrived I started on brakes, a/c, etc. just like Tom mentioned. If the mechanic in AZ had not been able to start it, I already had a buyer lined up to take it off my hands as a parts car. As it turns out, I made a very good buy; the body is solid, and it runs well. I do know now that the AZ sun dries out every single piece of rubber that Buick put into these things. Luckily, that's fairly inexpensive and something I can do myself. Since getting it up here, I've done a complete brake job on it, including all new rubber hoses, and wheel cylinder kits. One thing I did that I haven't seen mentioned too often is to put a new spring kit on the brakes; WHAT A DIFFERENCE.

[Jim Cannon]

Yes, if you are going to do the brakes and count on them stopping this 2-ton car, you want to replace all brake hoses and the hardware.

Inspect the steel lines for external damage or corrosion. The front one passes across the front frame crossmember and is exposed to damage from things hitting it while driving. The rear one, across the rear axle, gets a lot of road debris, dust, sand, blown over it while you drive (kind of sandblasting it). Very well formed, pre-bent replacements are available in original steel or stainless.

Also, something often overlooked (but mentioned in the shop manual to be done) is to grease the parking brake cables inside the housing (the part that goes into the rear backing plates) when you have the rear brakes apart. That, along with the new brake springs, will help get the parking brake applied securely when you step on the pedal, and help the shoes to fully retract when release it.

[1965rivgs]

Hi All,

Took a quick look at the Fisher Body plate data I have gathered on the `63-`65 cars and it appears in `63 and `64 Fisher used a seperate body numbering sequence for the Riviera models. The calender body build dates seems to correspond very closely with body number as it relates to total production for the year. However, this changed for `65...

In `65 and later the body numbers were interlaced with other models as it is typical to find a Fisher Body plate number which is well over the total Riviera production number. As an example, I checked one of my `65`s this A.M. The build date is 4th week in June and the body number is 168,000.

Fisher Body info changes, sometimes dramatically, from year to year. Any assumptions need to be put to the test by observation of the actual cars.

Tom Mooney ROA #56

[tim63riv]

Todd,

I'm glad the parents are excited about the car! That must have been a very special moment when they first saw it! I would continue to wake that Riviera up slowly, and I think you'll be pleased with what you find out. Joining the ROA is another thing to do right away, the help from the Riview and the website are more than worth the $30 membership fee. Tom, Jim and Ed are ROA members and they know these cars inside and out! You and your project Riviera are in VERY good hands! The ROA website is www.rivowners.org

Keep us posted on your progress!

Tim

[tim63riv]

Tom,

Yet again, the 63 Riviera IS a special car! LOL! Jim is keeping a data base on the Fisher Body numbers and the build dates, and it seems to be verifing what was believed all along, the body numbers are 63 Riviera specific to them alone. I'm sure as Jim gets data in, he may be able to come up with which F.B. number were built in a particular week, so that we could eventually determine at least what day a particular car may have been built. (has something to do with math, I think!) Hope all is well!

Tim

[tjthorson]

I just wanted to take a quick moment to thank each of you for all the great information. I have been travelling for work during the week, so I havent had much time to work on the car. It IS however smelling lots better now that it has been opened up and the trunk mat is out.

I have another car taking precendence right now - I picked up an 84 Cavalier Convertible for the wife. Needs an engine refresh because every gasket and seal is leaking.... But, for $600, its a rust free, all original, perfect interior, 50,000 original mile car that I drove home from the house I bought it from. Thats an easier fix then the Riv - so I am going to get that one out of the way first....

I would have already joined the ROA - except you guys havent fixed the "paypal" stuff yet. That's easiest for me while on the road...

[RivNut]

Just write a check. Paypal takes money from the ROA coffers anyway. It can't be that hard to write a check and put a stamp on it. What are you going to do when it comes time to buy a part from a guy (like me) somewhere across the country , it's the only one you've found and the price is right, but he doesn't take PayPal (like me)? Did you buy the Cavalier Convertible using PayPal?

[tjthorson]

Its no problem to do that, Ed.... These past few weeks - and next two weeks are crazy for me. When I get home and dont have to be doing this travelling, Ill send out a check.