Thoughts on cradle mount bushings

With the recent discovery that the cradle mount bushing dished spacers are no longer available for the Reatta, I got to thinking about a way around the lack of a critical part. At first I thought about trying to find something else suitable to use in place of the spacer. Then I got to thinking about using newer GM parts that were not spec'd for the Reatta.

Now, since the Reatta was an E-platform car, and the E-platform was carried forward all the way to 2002 in the form of the Cadillac Eldorado, and the K-platform (Deville through 1999, and Seville until 1997) was rather closely related at least in terms of the power train cradle that was used I started researching and made some interesting findings.

FSM for my 1995 Deville shows a rather different design for the spacer, lower insulator and retainer than that used on my 1991 Reatta (on which I had replaced the cradle mounts a few years ago now). Since the Deville cradle is largely identical (and a Caddy 4.9l V8 was transplanted into at least one Reatta - I know I saw a thread about it here a long time ago) I'm thinking these insulators, spacers and retainers would work. Alternatively, parts spec'd for the Eldorado anywhere from 1992-2002 could be used as well it seems and might be an even better match.

Another interesting point, and anyone here who has a 1991 Reatta FSM could look at this in section 10-2, the front most ("position 1") cradle mount has a spacer that differs from the other two on each side, and in the line-art illustration looks just like those used in the 1995 Deville. The position 2 and 3 spacers are the dished washer type that are no longer available. When I ordered the new parts for my 91 back in 2009, I got identical upper/lower insulators and spacers (all were of the dished type incidentally) for all 6, as all the disparate parts originally used in the factory build had been superceded by identical assemblies for all 3 positions on both sides of the cradle.

With all that in mind, anyone here have input on the idea of using newer Cadillac insulators, spacers and retainers on a Reatta since those parts should more than likely still be available? In my mind, it should work just fine, as the Cadillacs all had heavier powertrains (4.9l or Northstar V8's) and heavier bodies as well (Eldorado had a higher curb weight than the Reatta in any model year that I've looked at) so I'd think they would easily be up to the job. Not only that, but it appears they would be direct fit with no modification. Based on that, I cannot imagine this would compromise the mounting strength, nor would it lack the needed lateral rigidity to prevent squeaks/creaks/clunks from the cradle shifting under weigh or torque.

I'm planning on ordering a set for my Deville anyway (which is now 17 years old and has 130,000 miles on it) so I have them on hand and will plan on posting pictures here when I do. In the meantime, I'd be interested to hear what anyone else thinks of this approach as it may be the only way we can get all new parts that will work given the availability of original "correct" parts is now becoming an issue.

KDirk

Looking at the illustrations pdf, around page 510, it shows that the cradle mounting for '86-'88 Rivs is the same as all years Reattas. That is, the two in front are the same as the four in back. It is the '89-'91 Riv that has different ones in front. The '92-93 Rivs took it a step further with different setups in each of the three positions... (Position #2 seems the same as all three Reatta positions.)

It is always a Good Thing to have decent substitutes for unavailable original parts. Seems like some quality time at a Pick N Pull could answer the Cadillac interchange question.

I have also been pondering this. I am in the middle of my engine tranny swap and need to find a set of the craddle bushings. I figure if there are newer ones that will work they were modified for a reason. I would love to fine a polyurathane replacement. If I had the resources here I would go pull a few to find out, but there are only a few yards on this island

Another note on these. It appears that the later design (1992-93 on) bushings dispensed with the 3 small threaded studs that went through the cradle and were retained with small metric nuts in addition to the main bolt that went through the bushing and into the cage nut on the body. Despite that, the cradles retained the three small holes for the small metric studs until at least 95 (they are present on my Deville). This gives me further reinforcement of the idea that the newer bushings should be backwards compatible to the older cradles.

Moreover, the main hole in the cradle for each location is keyed as a "double D" (round on two edges, flat on the opposing two edges) for all the cars/years I have looked at so far: 1990 Deville, 1988-91 Reatta/Rivi, 1995 Deville/Eldorado/Seville, and 1997 Deville/Eldorado/Seville, all verified by checking the FSM for each. I guess I will plan on ordering a complete set of 6 upper/lower bushings, spacers and retainers for the 95 Deville and then try to visually gauge their suitability for use on the Reatta. Other than the Cadillacs generally having a softer suspension (and I don't think the cradle bushings had much to do with that anyway) I am fairly certain these will work.

I have not looked to see if there is anything in aftermarket bushings, but for performance, urethane would probably be better as Daniel stated. Even if there are some urethane parts, I'd think we would still have to rely on OEM spacers and retainers, and that is the crux of the current problem - the original Reatta spacers are obsolete/no longer available. Reusing the spacers is generally not possible for all but the cleanest most rust-free southern cars, so some suitable replacement needs to be found.

KDirk

Well, more bad news. Went to the dealer today and spent a fair amount of time researching availability of upper/lower insulator and retainer/spacer combinations for different models and years that I suspect would be compatible enough to use on the Reatta. Here is the bottom line: there aren't any, practically speaking. While some parts are available, it was not possible to put together a "matched set" of 6 spacer, insulators and retainers all from the same year/model to ensure that the parts chosen would all work together correctly. I am not so enthused about mixing/matching whatever can be scrounged up. Worse still, what is currently available is just residual stock still on hand at GM, when it is gone we are completely out of luck as no more are being made for any of the pre 2002 models it seems.

Some background from todays misadventure: I started with 1995 model year Cadillacs; Deville and Eldorado and worked up through 1999 for the Deville and 2002 for the Eldorado. I managed to find some retainers, and spacers. No lower insulators at all, and the only upper insulators I found were for the 1993 Riviera. So, as of right now, I have 6 Cadillac style retainers, 6 Cadillac spacers and 6 1993 Rivi upper insulators. More maddening still is the complete lack of any aftermarket support for these parts, I had my parts guy check Moog and Dorman and I looked at several on-line catalogs and came up empty.

Keep in mind that almost every FWD GM product from 1985 to 1999 used some variation of these bushings for the engine cradle. That probably accounts for millions of cars still on the road, and now a safety critical part is no longer available new for cars that may/will need these. I did not bother checking Oldmobile and Pontiac parts catalogs there due to time constraints and what I felt was probably a fruitless search at that point since both brands are defunct and even less likely to have parts available.

Did some looking on line this evening, and it appears that the 87/88 Fiero of all things used a very similar bushing setup for it's cradle despite being rear-engined. A look at fierostore.com reveals a kit that has aftermarket urethane bushings made for that application. Found some information on a Bonneville forum in which they substituted these Fiero bushings with apparently good results. Of course, there are some caveats with that as it requires OEM Fiero metal retainers and spacers to work right. Also saw some discussion of the cab to frame mounts used on the Chevy S10 being of a nearly identical and possibly suitable design. So, we have a starting point to work from for some possible substitute parts, though none of these is what I would characterize as ideal.

Still interested in input or thoughts from others who are knowledgeable about GM FWD vehilces of late 80's-early 90's vintage who can offer some educated advice on where we go from here to source these parts. Both my Deville and my 88 Reatta will need these at some point in the foreseeable future. Virtually all Reatta's will need them at some point if they are to be kept in service. Without them, the cars will at some point become unsafe to drive. I am not going to accept that they need to be "benched" for lack of these parts. Needless to say, I am fuming at GM right now, though the fact that it hit 106 degrees today has not helped my demeanor.

KDirk

Would any body be interested if I can get polyurethane replacements made? The ride would be a little rougher but they would last longer.

Daniel,

If it gets to that stage (having to custom make these bushings) I would likely be interested, so long as they are not prohibitively expensive. I don't know if these can be machined from a piece of urethane "stock" or if they have to be molded, but custom molding would be rather costly I imagine.

I am still going to do further research on the matter. I am planning to talk to Prothane (the company that makes the 87/88 urethane Fiero cradle bushings) to see what I can glean from their tech department. They may be a good place to start for pursuing the manufacture of new aftermarket parts since they are already doing it for a lot of other vehicles. Naturally, there needs to be a market for them to get involved, and I'm not sure we are there yet in terms of potential sales.

In looking at photos of their Fiero cradle bushing kit, there are two upper/lower urethane bushings that look as though they would be practically a direct fit. There are two other strange bushings that clearly are unique to the Fiero rear engine design, that would be discards if the kit were purchased for use on a Reatta. Obviously, more than one kit would be needed to get 6 bushings. One thing I am planning to ask is if they would consider selling these bushings individually or making a new kit with standard 6 upper/lower bushings and without the two that are unique to the Fiero. Of course, that is premature until I can determine if these would even work well on a Reatta. If these will work, then they don't have to make any new molds or parts, just package existing product in different quantities which I think would be possible. My 88 may well be the test bed for this exercise unless someone else here really wants to spearhead this.

As of right now, my 88 is still in good shape on the cradle mounts, but I figure in another year or two it will need to be done as I will not wait until they are at clear and present risk of failure. Due to my growing concern over the dwindling supply of OEM parts, I am trying to get what I know I will need now - or find suitable substitutes - even if I don't plan on installing them immediately. I don't think I can stress enough the importance of these parts to the continued safe operation of these cars. If the mounts go bad, the car is sidelined; if they fail while driving the results can end up totaling what was otherwise a very nice vehicle. That is the main reason I am so concerned about this issue now, with the longer term viability of keeping Reattae on the road being a close second.

KDirk

Since the same, or similar, mounts are used in quite a number of other GM cars of that vintage, one would hope there could be broader interest than just Reatta owners.

It is frustrating reading the ads in the Bugle. It seems like any of a number of those businesses are missing bets by not supporting the FWD cars better.

Walt,

you raise a very valid issue there. It seems all these classic car parts suppliers/repro parts houses are catering to the 1985-back models. Even then, the few "newer" (i.e. mid 80's) models getting any support are mostly special interest stuff that has proven profitable like the GNX (ok, that was 1987, but you get my point). In fairness, the first generation GM FWD models (1985/6 onward) are just now old enough to qualify for classic car status.

The bigger problem is that FWD cars (especially 80's GM products in general) still have a stigma attached: they are uninspiring (or poor) designs aesthetically, and are mediocre from a performance standpoint. I'm not saying I agree with that, but my perception is that a lot (most?) serious car collectors are unexcited about 80's FWD vehicles as most do not offer much to get excited about. This plays into the lack of demand for reproduction parts as the market for these cars as collectibles has not yet fully formed to the point that vendors are willing to make the investment.

I suspect that there will be precious few vehicles of that vintage that will ever gain widespread recognition as collectibles. Heck, even the mid-80's Corvettes were lackluster; mostly due to restrictions imposed by emissions requirements and the then still fresh memory of the gas shortages of the 70's. The Reatta is poised to be a legitimate collector car if critical mass can be attained in getting enough owners to embrace the idea of preservation and restoration vs. just keeping them running until the wheels fall off. Of course, we need the parts to be able to preserve and restore and right now we are in the eye of the storm: the newness of the Reatta (front end of the storm) has passed over so it is viewed by many as "just another old car". Meanwhile, the back end (the desire to keep them running AND in show condition - or nearly so) has yet to make landfall. I can see the clouds gathering on the horizon, but worry the storm may change course and blow back out to sea before the significance of this car is widely recognized.

The case for reproduction parts will be hard to make if being done only for the Reatta. The number of vehicles needed to support a vibrant aftermarket just aren't there; and I'm not sure they will ever be as an increasing number of the marginal examples are starting to fall off now as parts cars or scrap. What we may need is to coordinate with other E-platform clubs/groups to form a market for parts in common like suspension and other semi-unique mechanical items. The last gen Rivi and Eldorado are the most notable towards this end as they had pretty decent production numbers. They also seem to have a fair number of fans from what I see. Joining forces with last gen Toronado owners can't hurt but it was a very low production car for it's last few years in existence, and seems to have a more limited following which is a real shame.

In any event, we are rapidly approaching the point of having to make the market by putting our money where our mouth is if we are planning to save our Reattae for the long term. Will there be enough of us to make that happen? There seems to be a core group of serious fans of this car, but I think we need to get a lot bigger to have our needs recognized by outfits that cater to classic car restoration.

KDirk

I have done a little research with my local Buick Dealer. Parts #1627359 [insulator] is good. Part #11517635 [bolt] is still good.

What is discontinued is the spacer which is part#1626368. However my local dealer still has some.

I am willing to buy one and then see if my friends machine shop would/could make them for us. Dealer list is $7.77 each so the cost would at least be that.

The other two parts insulators/bolts being available would be up to you to get.

Now the real question is... Who is interested in buying any of the spacers?

Dave,

I'd be interested in the spacers if they can be replicated reasonably (say under $20 each) but that price point may be a stretch. I still have one brand new one, and it is made of a textured (stamped) steel probably to prevent small lateral movement against the body rail when mounted. I think that texture would need to be replicated for it to work right.

I have done some further research on OEM parts, and found a few odds and ends, but no substantial supply of most of the parts still stocked by GM SPO (4 of this, 8 of that kind of thing) and have had to have the dealer search through several models and model years just to round up a disparate collection of stuff that could be used.

I already have most parts needed on hand to do one car (most likely the 88 Reatta) but my 95 Deville will need these as well within the next couple of years tops I'd say. Thing is, they were a different design from the Reatta and likely heavier duty due to the greater weight of the V8 power train. I may still substitute Reatta/Rivera parts as there is virtually NOTHING available for the Cadillacs now.

Will still be talking with Prothane about their Fiero cradle and S-10 cab mounts, as I think these could be made to work in the absence of any other option.

KDirk

For some reason my last post did not show the text. The bushings are from a fiero. They are alittle wider but fit the craddle I think I am going to look for the washer/spacer from the fiero and use them in all six posistions. This will be stiffer by far than the factory bushings, but will work for my use. I also talked with Prothane and may become a dealer and have the reatta/gm fwd bushings made, but I still have alot of research to do befor I take that leap as it will cost me a bit and I would have to know I would make the investment back.

Daniel,

Thanks for that info. Looks like my suspicion that the Fiero bushings will fit are fairly well confirmed then. I am wondering, have you actually put these on your car yet, and if so, what changes have you noticed in terms of handling, rigidity/harshness, etc? Also, if these work as-is, is is really necessary to have separate parts developed for the Reatta or other FWD GM cars? My thinking was to have Prothane make a new "kit" containing 6 each of the existing Fiero upper/lower bushings and omit the two odd bushings that are Fiero specific. This would be easy enough for them to do as it is doesn't require any new development of parts (molds etc.) just a packaging change. They just might be persuaded to do that. Convincing them to casting new molds for unique parts will be a harder sell I imagine.

The fact that there is no aftermarket support for these (other than the Fiero & S-10 kits offered by Prothane; neither of which is FWD) tells me that there must not be a market for them (yet). If there was money to be made, seems like someone would already have done this given the sheer number of cars from 1985 to at least 1999 that used this cradle mount bushing setup. Of course, many (most?) of those cars are throw-away garden variety GM models that do not have strong followings in terms of restoration level maintenance. Cars like the Fiero, Reatta and last generation Rivi, Olds Toro/Trofeo and Aurora, Bonneville, and perhaps a handful of others are in the unusual position of still being desired by enough people who want to keep them on the road that these parts are or will be needed. Those models together should be enough to attract an aftermarket manufacturer, but so far, it has not happened.

KDirk

I am going to use the Fiero bushings, washers, and spacers for my car. I will let you know how it turns out.

Also thought I would throw this knowlege out there for you. I am 95% sure thes will work for us, but I am not spending the $50 to test it as I am short on cash for my project. If some one wolud like me to check when I put my engine in they can buy and send them to me and I will let you know if they will fit and how close they are to the Reatta bushings in size ect. BTW Rockauto also has them (94 buick regal) we would need 4 rear and 2 front but all the parts are there new and AVAILABLE.

FRONT Dorman (OE Solutions) 924-004 Front Subframe Bushing Kit Regal Impala Lumina | eBay

REAR Dorman (OE Solutions) 924-005 Rear Subframe Bushing Kit Regal Lumina Monte Carlo | eBay

Enjoy

How are you getting the specifications to think that these will work?

Called Advance and they can get them [non stocked], the 924-004 is $29.00 and the 924-005 is $31.00 No shipping charge

I am waiting on an old gm engineer to get me as built drawings for each body type (E, K, H, ect), but from experience and looking at many GM engine cradles the double "D" they use is pretty much identical. The Reatta rear bushings were bolted in, but I have no issue using bushings with out bolts. Also many other manufactures do not bolt or "key/double D" their bushings, and they seem to work. As for the stiffness of them I am not sure but I would think that they would be a little stiffer as they only used four on these cars. Also the components are almost identical to the reatta.

Dave,

To put some clarity on your question, I began looking at this problem a while back when someone (just who escapes me right now) posted here that the spacers (dished washers) were no longer available. I had been putting off getting cradle mount parts for the 88 and my 95 Deville, as they were in generally good shape. When I discovered the parts were "running dry" from GM I got alarmed, and sprang into action.

What I found is not good. Almost all the FWD GM cars that used these same basic (there are a number of variations for stiffness/thickness etc.) bushing design from 1985 to 2002 or so show mostly nothing still available. There are a few upper bushings around (mostly for the 1993 Rivi, the upper bushing for that year was apparently spec'd only for that car, go figure) and a few lower bushings from late 90's Cadillac E/K platform cars (Eldorado, Deville, Seville). VPI had a few oddball parts but not enough of any one type to use the same part in all 6 positions. Spacers for the Cadillac models are much heavier duty (as one would expect for a heavier, larger car with a V8) but appear to be usable for our needs. I managed to order some, and it appears there is some stock available. Not sure how many though.

Retainers (the lower round dished steel disc that goes between the bolt and the lower bushing) are also sparse, and I ordered some Cadillac style ones that I feel will work fine on the Reatta; they are dimensioned the same, maybe just 1 gauge heavier steel, and are painted, not raw steel, so an improvement on the original Reatta parts IMO.

To cut to the chase, the polyurethane bushings Daniel and I are discussing are made for the Fiero. Physically, the size and fit ("double D keyed" for the lower bushing) looks identical to the lower bushings used on the 1991 Reatta in the front most (position #1 on parts diagrams) and rear most (position #3 on parts diagrams) positions. The middle (position #2) bushings are the strange ones with the 3 small threaded studs that have to be mounted into the cradle with three small metric nuts. These lower bushings are still available, but don't know how many. The original #1 and #3 position bushings (or their direct GM approved replacements) are no longer to be found for most of the compatible years/models I have checked so far.

I may spring for a set of the Prothane Fiero bushings just to inspect them and compare side by side with the factory stuff I have on hand. If the shape/size is the same, then they will work. The only question becomes how they will affect the handling/feel of the car as they are going to be much stiffer than the black rubber ones used by the factory. I suspect they will cause more road vibration/bumps to be transmitted to the body, but that is just speculation until someone tries them out and reports back.

KDirk

Dave,

Sorry if I was not clear in my earlier post,the black bushings in the photos are Reatta and the red ones are the fiero. The biggest dif is the with as the highth is the same. They fit the engine cradle perfectly but a person as in myself will have to get the fiero spacers and washers.

I am stocked up so I can wait out the zombie attack

I just got back from having my Rack and Pinion replaced on the Red. While they were swapping out the Rack they also dropped the sub frame. The two outside bushings on both sides looked really good yet, so I have only have the Black to think about. I am starting to feel better about what I may still need.

Baumgarts our local tire/suspension place is really reasonable, I paid $230.00 w/tax for the R&R of the Rack including alignment. They were done in just over two hours. Another project never to be attempted by me again.

Just got my fiero spacers. With the polyurethane bushings they are about 1/8 taller than my stock in all six positions most likey the originals are worn out causing the difference. I will let every one know how it mounts when i do the install..

Hi guys, sorry to dig up an old post but I thought I'd say something since you guys seriously helped to lead me to the parts I needed.

The Dorman 924-004 bushing kit for the W-bodies etc as mentioned above is a direct replacement for the 4 part bushing in the rear of the subframe on the Toronado/Reatta/Rivieras... at least this is the case with my 92 Trofeo. The only part that's different is the bolt which will not cross over. The bolt size that you'll need M12x1.75x100mm long.

I have yet to find a replacement for the 1 piece bushing with the three studs and nuts that bolt into the cradle itself although I would be tempted to buy another one of the Dorman's and attempt to install it in the same position as the two have the exact same installed height when tightened down in the vehicle and the double D shape in the cradle is the same for the 4 piece bushing as it is for the 1 piece.... one could argue that they may be interchangeable... I just haven't tried it yet.

The top cup is exactly the same as the one that bolts against the bottom of the car, the only problem is since the bolt is slightly larger (an m14 bolt) the hole in the bottom cup for the bolt is slightly larger as well. Whether or not this will make a difference with the OE bolt is yet to be seen, but I don't think it'll matter since the flanged area under the head of the bolt on both bolts is the same diameter so it will have the same amount of grab on said washer. With that being said if your bottom cups are re-usable they fit perfectly on the Dorman bushing. If they're not usable and you are worried about the slightly larger hole with the M12 bolt you could simply get a grade 8 washer to put under the head of the m12 bolt to increase the clamping area.

Hopefully this helps somebody out, seems like there was optimism about this thread in the past but it kind of died. Wanted to let you guys know so that if you need to buy these, you'll know your money is not wasted.

SilentWing-

thanks for the input! The only way these interchange experiments ever go anywhere is if someone actually tries it and proves it is doable (or not). Nice that you reported your findings, as this will help others who need to do parts substitution. I will be doing work on my 88 Reatta and 95 Deville this spring and summer (and probably fall), which is why I kind of let this thread go a while back - just didn't have the time last year to do any of it. That, and neither car actually needed the bushings replaced yet. The Deville may still be ok for another year or two, will be keeping an eye on that.

I have a lot to do on both cars this year, and a few things on the 91 Reatta as well. Biggest impediment is finding the time, always have too many things going on.

KDirk

I know what you mean, time is definitely difficult to find... seems to be even moreso these days.

I figured this may help either someone on this forum, or even someone doing a search in the future. Either way, like you said, confirmation can make a big difference. Glad to help.

Just ordered the Dorman parts! A big "Chi-town shout out" to SilentWing for remembering to come back a post his findings! I really appreciate it! :cool:

Huzzah! Glad to hear it's already helping you guys out!

Hello Gentlemen. I signed up to this forum due to this thread. I have a '99 Eldorado with which I believe the "double-d" holes that contain the subframe bushings have worn out causing clunking and some groaning while turning. Even if I were to acquire new bushings, the holes in which they are contained are still too large. Does anyone know of a solution or have a decent fix to this issue?

Thanks!

Hello Gentlemen. I signed up to this forum due to this thread. I have a '99 Eldorado with which I believe the "double-d" holes that contain the subframe bushings have worn out causing clunking and some groaning while turning. Even if I were to acquire new bushings, the holes in which they are contained are still too large. Does anyone know of a solution or have a decent fix to this issue?

Thanks!

And actually, after reading these posts carefully, would the aftermarket Fiero lower insulators fit my 99 Eldorado? I cannot find exact replacements for my make and model ANYWHERE. From the sounds of what you all are saying, the lower insulator with the "double D" end is interchangeable, but the other components of the mount assembly are not? I'm still a little confused on that bit. Thanks.

What is the latest update on usable engine cradle mounts? I had a call today from a mechanic in Michigan that needed cradle mounts and I gave him some leads and so far he has not called back.

Do the Fiero mounts work? Where are they available and any other details.

Barney,

I think Daniel did use the Fiero parts on his, but that is not in this thread. There must be another thread here in which he posted about it. I know the Fiero bushings required the use of the Fiero metal retainers due to a difference in diameter.

As of now, that is probably the only option short of finding a stash of NOS original parts and that is seemingly unlikely.

Need to get Daniels input here to be certain.

KDirk

The Fiero bushings work, but are a tight fit. Good thing is they are available in polyurathane.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Dorman-Subframe-Mount-Rear-Sub-Frame-924-005-/390821242041?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5afec2e4b9&vxp=mtr

Dorman part 924-005

These are exactly the same size as the reatta bushing and work perfectly for the bushings that do not haf the three 10mm bolts holding them on. If you can get over the three 10mm bolts (not really needed as theses have a double "D" shape) they will work fine in all locations.

Dorman part 924-004 may also work but I am not sending any more cash on parts I will not be using when there is a known part that will work and perform properly.