Gas prices & European sheep

[Guest]

Well summer is coming and gas prices here have gone up 14 cents since last Sunday.And regardless of what your opinion of George W or who you voted for in the last election he is an former oil man and not likely to be much help !!!!So do we spend another summer getting screwed at the pumps, or do we fight back ???Now before you post about the price of fuel in europe(Which happens every time this comes up)dont bother , as far as Im concerned if the europeans want to spend that kind of money on fuel without fighting back then they are truly sheep and deserve what they get. Also thet last time I went down the end of my street I saw Keystone Oaks high school not the Eiffel tower.So are you going to send a message to big oil or just sit there and complain without doing anything about it ?????<P><BR>The oil companies are profit driven (just like all business) its the only thing they understand. Right now they believe they have the consumer exactly where they want them and to a certain point they are right . But at most gas stations you will find a convenience store with many overpriced but handy items available. These are the items that should be left on the shelves to rot!!! buy nothing but what you need ( the overpriced fuel ), buy the cheapest fuel available , let the more expensive grades turn to varnish in the storage tanks. If your antique requires a higher octane fule , buy an octane booster elsewhere. The US economy runs on supply & demand, little or no demand creates an over supply and the oil companies will then scramble to create demand (Lower prices help create demand), Now you may say that the fuel station/ convenience store is not owned by the oil company but by a franchiser . Well unfortunately somebody has to suffer (and better him than me).In addition the oil companies will start to notice when their orders from their franchisees also start to decline and are also more apt to pay attention to to their franchiser complaining than you or me !!!!. The fact of the matter is WE control this economy regardless of what wall street thinks. If you need any more proof of that then remind yourself of the Ford Edsel.No matter what was done or offered the car just couldnt be sold and failed . Its time to say enough is enough, I want to enjoy my cars this summer but Ill be damned if Im going to have my pocket picked by a greedy oil company to do it. Fight back !!!! buy your gas and leave everything else there , when they ask if there will be anything else reply"After buying this gas I cant afford anything else". Take back control of your hobby and your wallet .<P>Dan<BR>77 Electra<BR>70 300 Hurst<BR>62 Fury

[Guest SalG (Sal Grenci)]

Hi all, The problem is with supply. We are more dependent on forign spouces than when daddy Bush went to war a decade ago to keep the free flow of oil out of the Middle East. We have oil in places like Alaska that we control and should be pumping out. With the advances in technology since the 70's oil crisis and the computer power we have we should be able to find it and pump it out, while still preserving the enviornment.<BR>Plus, let me use a dirty word "nukes" we have come a long way from Three Mile Island. The last time I checked Bill Smith our exec dir did not glow & he lives close to it just like every Hershey region member. And Hershey bars are still eaten my America. Japan & France use them, and the last time I checked the news they we affraid of mad cow and not nukes. We could be taking that oil and making gasoline. SalG my two cents.<p>[This message has been edited by SalG (edited 04-16-2001).]

[ply33]

(noise of soap box being pulled out of closet)<P>Well, we now have a car that does 45 MPG in town and I often bicycle to work. That means the only gas hog I drive is my antique which gets about 1500 miles a year, so the total gas used ain't all that much.<P>Now, if everyone else did the same instead of getting a big SUV (or even a typical sedan) and complaining about the gas cost maybe the demand would go down. Actions do speak louder than words.<P>You can view the oil "reserves" as a bank vault full of oil. A bank where nobody is making deposits. At least deposits are not being made at a rate that is significant in terms of human history. Every time you make a withdrawal, there is that much less left. Someday that vault will go empty. Do we really want to waste those precious withdrawals using two tons of metal to move two pounds of groceries? Maybe we will not use it up in our generation. But some of us hope that we will have decendants still living in the coming years, decades and centuries.<P>(time to put soap box away)<p>[This message has been edited by TodFitch (edited 04-16-2001).]

[Guest]

What's the matter with you people? We have LOTS of oil! I bathe my cat in the stuff every day. Go ahead, drink up! We'll make more, we're nice guys! <P>Technology will get us out of any mess. Didn't you see "Titan A.E." last year? <P>By the way, I hear the Unimog rides like a dream! All gas tanks should hold 50+ gallons.<P>Oh, and thank so much to all the people in Florida that made all this possible for us in last year's election. We won't forget you! How about a new NASCAR track? Say somwhere way out in the country where you'll have to drive a long way to get there. Wouldn't that be nice!<P><B> RFG WILL RISE AGAIN!!! </B>

[Clincher]

My Suburban is sitting in the driveway. It's been sitting there for over a month. When I get sick of looking at it I plan to blow it up and sell the remains to the insurance company. Meanwhile I'm walking and riding my bike as much as possible, and taking the bus whenever I can. To Hell with Mobil, I've even quit watching "Masterpiece Theatre"!

[ThomasBorchers]

Dan~~<BR>If you mean that we Europeans like these high gas prices: You are wrong!<BR>Just before Easter the prices increased and a lot of people here in Germany made trouble so that the prices dropped down today. We have here the problem of the very high Dollar, so it is no wonder that we have here high prices for gas. <BR>The people and Auto Clubs (ADAC and AvD) here do a lot against these high prices but at the end we have to pay what the want or we will have no gas in our tanks. <BR>If you are interested: Price for one gallon of premium gas is at the moment: $ 3.75 in Germany. The highest price we ever had. <P>Tom<P>------------------<BR>Thomas Borchers<BR>Member of AACA # 004829<BR>HCCA and MAFCA

[JanK]

First, let me say that making a profit in and of itself is NOT a bad thing, IMHO. If I owned my own business, my intent would be to make a profit. For the sake of my current job, I want the company I work for to be profitable. This is America, right?<P>Supply and demand is a separate issue altogether. EVERYONE knows we use more gasoline in the summer, and that we require more heating oil in the winter. Why, then, do the producers not anticipate the need and plan accordingly? Because short supply increases demand and raises the price.<P>Hurting the local Mom and Pop gas stations is not going to effect those producers and distributors that are causing the problem. They don't care about the other stuff the stations sell; they just provide the gas. With people buying less gas, they rely more and more on the sale of the other items to keep their businesses going. By holding back on those sales, the only ones who are hurt are the other "little guys" who are also caught up in this mess. <P>Yes, we're buying less gas. Yes, we're consolidating trips to save gas. And, yes, we may limit the car trips we take this year. It helps our pocketbook, but will it have any impact on the price charged? I don't think so. We control what we can control, and that's about all we can do.<P>Jan K.

[Guest]

The effect of the laws of supply and demand depend on your perspective. Saw an article yesterday about the 1901 Spindeltop oil find in Beaumont, TX that started oil patch, which led to Henry becoming somebody, resulted in concrete ribbons crisscrossing our country and finally led to SUVs. Well, they pointed out that in Beaumont that year oil was 3 cents a barrel and water was $6.00 a barrel. I wonder if the those oil field roughnecks boycotted water.

[Guest]

Okay, let's not point fingers at our current national administration for gas and oil prices. Let's face it - last summer, under a very different administration, gas prices weren't exactly low. <P>The blame should lie all around us. <BR>1)Reformulated gasoline, which we have in my area, has proven to do nothing for the environment and it costs us more money - whether the EPA (under the former leadership of Carol Browner) wants to admit it or not. <P>2)Big oil producers deserve to make a profit - that should be their goal - but they take advantage of peak usage times and raise prices beyond logic. They blame supply and demand even though supply and demand peaks and valleys are easily forecasted. (Winter-heating oil / Summer-more gasoline -- not too tough to figure out!)<P>3)Automakers continue to produce vehicles that guzzle gas and we continue to buy them. We know when we buy an SUV or van that our mpg will be low and our cost to refuel will be high. Still, we have the nerve to complain.<P>Bottom line? Not a whole lot we can do except for wait this out. And before we attack the former oil man from Texas who is sitting in the White House, let's see what he can do. And by the way - thanks Florida!<P><p>[This message has been edited by PattyK (edited 04-17-2001).]

[Guest]

I am not a petroleum refining engineer, so the following is based on something I believe I understood while attending a petroleum seminar at an AACA Meet in California a few years back. If I am incorrect and there is a qualified person reading this to correct me, then by all means do. <P>However unless you know what you are talking about, please refrain from comment. Just not liking the President or the oil companies is NOT a qualification.<P>Regarding planning ahead with regard to the high demand for gasoline in the summer and heating oil in the winter in order to have the necessary supplies available when they are needed and so insure price stability, I offer the following.<P>You cannot take a barrel of crude oil and say that this barrel will be turned into ALL regular gas, or ALL heating oil, or ALL premium gas or All diesel fuel. A barrel of crude, when refined yields a mixture of the above listed products. So, if you get gas and heating oil at the same time, and it is summer and the demand for gas is high and the demand for heating oil is low, the laws of supply and demand will dictate that the price of the product for which there is limited demand will fall and the price of the other product will rise.<P>You could repeal the laws of supply and demand. There are countries where that has been done and look at their standard of living. But of course there are those who would like to see everyone living at the same economic level. Damn the successful, full steam astern!<P>Of course that is just my opinion. I could be wrong.<P>hvs

[ranchero]

patty & hvs - yes, you've got it. c'mon over to buick board and get them straightened out. <P>our society does not have a legitimate complaint when we seem to have collectively decided that exploration, drilling, pumping, transportation, refining and distribution of energy sources is politically incorrect. we have to develop domestic sources of energy, not fuss about "renewable" resources. the sun and wind are a nice idea, but we need oil, coal, natural gas, etc. we've got 'em, lets go get 'em.<P>the europeans do not have the luxury of all the readily available natural resouces we have. so their supply is much more limited. and they are subject to much more aggressive taxation. we need the fuel to run the type of society to which we have become accustomed. the price for that is limited supply in the times of great demand. the solution is to increase supply by increasing production.

[Guest]

I put in a concrete sidewalk today across the street from a gas station. Around 9 am the price was raised 4 cents a gallon across the board. I went to lunch at 11:00 am when I returned at 11:30 the price had been raised another 3 cents a gallon across the board ....2 price increases in a 4 1/2 hour period . But I need straightened out! . By the way if you want to argue the point further dont just stop at the Buick board. Go to Project Bronco.com, Chucks chevy truck pages, The slotcar center bulletin board and just about every other place in my list of favorites that has a BBS. Lets see who gets more support . <p>[This message has been edited by 77 Survivor (edited 04-17-2001).]

[Guest]

77 SURVIVOR- <P>This doesn't have to be about who gets more support. The bottom line, no matter where any of us are pointing fingers, is that we are all paying a higher cost at the pumps. We all have our own theories of why this is so, and the truth is probably a combination of all of them! <P>Unfortunately, boycotting the stations will only hurt the mom and pop operators, not the big oil companies. We'll probably just have to muddle through this just like we did last year. Sure, we can drive a little less to help save our own pocket book, but we'll still need to drive.<P>By the way, I have been on the other DFs and have heard what people are saying, and there is a lot of support for your side. Much of it is well thought out, but much more of it seems to be from people who like to use the word "goober" to refer to our President. If you want me to take those postings to heart, it will be difficult. <P>Good luck at the pumps, and feel free to vent as the price per gallon gets higher. That's one of the great things about the DF! <P><BR>

[Guest]

Patty ~ You hit the nail on the head. When someone raves like an idiot, calls people childish insulting names and clamors for hurting innocent businesses to bolster his own ideas of right and wrong, then it is very difficult to take that person seriously.<BR>There are a lot of folks out there in today's society with that victimization mentality. <P>My father always said, "Son you cannot help a fool." <BR><p>[This message has been edited by hvs (edited 04-17-2001).]

[Guest]

A few cents more per gallon may hurt your wallet, but I think it's far better than the return to those wonderful times of 1970-73 with alternate day fillups and real shortages. I hear all this griping from people who are probably in favor of little tin can cars that get 75 mpg and are environmentally (and PC) correct. Well California was the state leader in "green" everything and now they want the rest of us to bail them out of their power crisis. Fat chance. Pay the going price for gas and work politically to get this country on-track with a realistic energy policy. The last eight years of inaction are biting us now.

[ranchero]

77 survivor: what model buick is that you drive? is it a lesabre maybe? that was about a $5,500 car back then. what did unleaded cost you in '77 - maybe 60 cents a gallon? <P>hate to tell you, but a 2001 lesabre will set you back about five times as much! so maybe $3.00 per gallon fuel isn't so unreasonable, huh? <P>whether or not you happen to see fuel prices being raised at a station means nothing. what means something is supply and demand. if the supply is limited geographically by government requirements, you the consumer will suffer when demand exceeds local supply. if you'd like lower prices you should be wishing for greater supply.<P>the only conspiracy that exxon and its brethern practice is one designed to defeat commercial competitors, not to extort from the customers who make the free market possible.<P>an econ 101 course at the local junior college would help all. <P>

[novaman]

PattyK, your reformulated gasoline in your area, you said "has proven to do nothing for the environment and it costs us more money - whether the EPA (under the former leadership of Carol Browner) wants to admit it or not." It has proven one thing, the EPA people are um... how do I put this politely... idiots. That reformulated gas has been proven to be a health hazzard. I don't remember off hand what it does. I'll have to try to find out again. <P>ted schneider, you were remembering "those wonderful times of 1970-73 with alternate day fillups and real shortages." I hate to tell you what the gasoline tanker truck drivers were doing in upstate NY. While everyone was doing the even - odd days and passing station with signs saying out of gas, they were driving into Canada to unload. Why? Because the gas station tanks were full and this was the only way to get rid of thier load!! Some fuel shortage!<P>As far as those of you that are picking on W., the prices were high last summer, and the fuel we are using now was produced back towards the begining of the year to early for W. to really affect it. <P>Just remember, if we hadn't ended up with W. we couldn't complain because Gore probabaly would pull the plug on the Internet. After all, He stated three or four times that HE invented it. <P>Which is better, A businessman or a outright liar that has always made his living out of taxpayers pockets.<P>I'm ducking as I put my soapbox away. <P><p>[This message has been edited by novaman (edited 04-17-2001).]

[Dave@Moon]

Patty,<P>It is highly doubtful that Mr. Bush and (especially) Mr. Cheney are <I> former </I> "oil men". All of what has and will transpire has been about as unpredictable as gravity. See the "Howard Where are You!" thread from last summer to see how easily this was anticipated.<P>Also, I think "goober" was a term commonly tossed around for the Rhodes Scholar that last occupied that office, so there's precedent! <P>Finally, with the former Governor of New Jersey running the EPA, you needn't concern yourself with them until at least 2005. The people who are still left employed there are not exactly being pushed to their limits to do their jobs, if you know what I mean. And don't worry, there will be no environmental health problems found in the next 4 years that will ned their attention (unless those pesky 60 Minutes guys pick up the slack, darn 'em!).

[Dave@Moon]

Jan,<P>Where do you live that you still have "Mom & Pop" gas stations? When the EPA tank regulations took effect here in PA during the late 1980's (under the last Bush), they pretty much dissappeared from the face of the earth. <P>Today virtually <I> all </I> gasoline outlets are owned corporately. They're either directly owned by the oil company (Exxon, BP, etc.) or owned by a corporately held marketer (Gulf/Cumerland Farms, convienence stores, Meijer, etc.). It is incredibly rare to find an individually owned gas station or even and individually owned store that sells gas. <P>As as for the "little guys" being hurt by the latest gas crunch, you can pretty much already say good-bye to Saturday mail delivery. Fuel costs are the main reason cited by the USPS for discontinuing Saturday service, which with another postal rate increase is almost a forgone conclusion by the end of this year. I hope none of your relatives are mail carriers. <P>I'm not used to thinking of the Post Office as "the little guy", but I've been wrong before!<P>There will be many more ramifications to the rising cost of fuel. Anybody think 1979-1983 was tough on GM? Just wait!

[Guest rcirilli]

I work around the oil industry a lot of my awaken life. I can support what HVS has said, the refineries have very little effect over what blends come out of a barrel of crude. High grade crude will yield more gasoline, diesel/heating and kerosene. Aircraft fuel being a very close chemically relative to Kerosene. The biggest problem is that the US oil companies haven't had any incentives to spend the money for exploration. If they do spend money for exploration the Opec nations increase the flow and drop the price. During the 70's crissis the Federal Government gave the oil producers enough incentive to insure they wouldn't get burnt. It needs to happen again. When talking about Europe, their problem is entirely different. Fuel is one of their primary taxing tools, they raise tax money and discourage low mileage cars.

[Dave@Moon]

Novaman,<P>The bad stuff in reformulated gas (RFG) is called methyl tertiary butyl ether (MBTE). It was approved under the last Bush administration as a way to meet the requirements of the 1990 Clean Air Act. (It was easier then tightening vehicle emissions further directly, and far more profitable (and patentable) than the ethanol use which Congress (i.e. foolish Democrats!) anticipated.)<P>See <A HREF="http://www.oxybusters.com" TARGET=_blank>www.oxybusters.com</A> for a detailed (if somewhat inflamatory) disucssion on MTBE history.<P>I think you'll hear a lot more criticism of W and his oily crew over the coming months on this issue. It's <I> not </I> because anyone creditably believes he's actively encouraging price gouging or the "shortage". (That is obviously OPEC's doing.) The noise from the hinterlands you will be hearing will be complaints about a lack of vigor in policing the situation. It's difficult to imagine an administration with <I> LESS </I> incentive to be firm with regard to oil or energy policy (except in terms of cooperating with maximizing supply). <P>The noise you will hear in Washington will be leaves rustling.

[novaman]

Dave@Moon, Thanks. That was the infromation I was looking for. (was going to)I had to leave an go check on my newest baby ('96 Monte Carlo) she's in the bodyshop. Someone threw a beer bottle at her the other week while parked in my front yard and dented the hood.

[Guest]

DAVE@MOON-<P>As far as our former president, Mr. Clinton, being referred to as "goober", I must say in my circle that simply was not true. We called him "bubba". That said, it was a word saved for people who shared my opinion of him. If I wanted to make a point about Clinton to someone who had a different view of him than I did, I was intelligent enough to realize that calling him "bubba" during the conversation would probably not help my cause.<P>As for the "mom and pop" stores - here in Wisconsin there are a few left. But even if you are talking about the stations owned by the oil companies or the corporately held marketers, the bottom line remains the same. It's our friends, neighbors, or relatives working at these stations. Are we really better off putting them out of work just so we can make a point?<P>Now we have the USPS. Don't even get me started here. The truth? Mailing a letter is a bargain in this country. .34 for less than 1 oz. first class? And when they made the last increase, they DROPPED the cost for additional ounces by a penny. I say to the USPS - don't drop Saturday delivery, raise my first class postage by five cents instead. It will still be a bargain and I'll be happy to pay it. The USPS is not a victim of rising feul costs. They are a victim of their own reluctance to raise postage at an intelligent rate instead of a penny here or there.<P>Of course this is all just my opinion, so I'll step off my soap box. For now.<P>Have a good day all! <P>Patty<p>[This message has been edited by PattyK (edited 04-18-2001).]

[Guest]

I'll throw my 2 cents in here. First, I use public transportation to get to and from work everyday. During the week, I don't even drive a car. Really the only car I drive is the old one on weekends, so I only fill up about once every three weeks or so. <P>But the gasoline situation is really rooted in choice. I choose to work in the City and use public transportation. I choose not to drive to work everyday. In the same way, others choose what they drive, where they work and where they live in proximity to where they work. That is their choice. If you chose an SUV for a commute of 50 miles each way, that was your decision and the gasoline costs are a result of that decision. Exxon-Mobil didn't tell you to buy that Ford Excursion, did they? So my point is that instead of blaming oil companies, maybe we should look at our own decisions and the implications of them.<P>And just for the record, I am a registered Republican, not a tree-hugger.

[Dave@Moon]

If anybody can possibly swing it, you should have my wife's commute. She's an insurance claims examiner (I'm a housewife). Her commute is accross the hall to her office, a converted bedroom. Telecommuting is the way to go!

[JanK]

The Mom and Pop's I'm referring to are in Wisconsin. I found out that some are locally owned and operated after my husband got a bad tank of gas in his "modern iron." <P>The owner was very concerned that his customers would take their business elsewhere after hearing about or being involved in the bad gas episode. He was very concerned that he would lose his business over it. He was very gracious, handling all the repair claims for the affected customers, and following up with us to make sure we were satisfied with the results. Luckily, all our bills were settled, and his attitude made a big deal of difference. Since his prices are habitually 2-3 cents less on regular, and 8-10 cents less on the premium, we often go a mile out of our way to buy gas at his station. <P>But after that little incident, we now pay for all our gas with check or credit card instead of cash, so we have a receipt of purchase. That made all the difference in settling with the gas distributor's insurance company! <P>Jan K.

[Guest]

Hey "yellow one" - america is now 2 for 2 in draft dodging presidents who become "Commander-in-Chief". Ironic ain't it? When I was in college we called guys like Bush lite "party animals". And look at how successful he became, POTUS. So if big business is evil and small business if goodness, how would we get from small business all the essential goods and services we've come to expect - (read cars, gasoline, auto parts, just to make this relavant to AACA)? Isn't there something to be said in favor of businesses that need economy of scale, as well as small businesses that exist based on service? Do we sometimes get screwed by government and business practices. Yup. But this is still america, so I guess you sometimes got to take a little bad with the much greater good.

[Guest rcirilli]

PattyK, My favorite nickname for our ex was BillyBob a little less prestigious than Bubba.

[Guest]

Jaundiced ~ In 1951 when I entered college I joined the Air Force ROTC "on accounta" I really didn't want to go to Korea. By the time I was commissioned a 2nd Lt. the war was over. I then went on to fly as a navigator in the USAF for the next 5 years.<BR>Never got shot at or fought a day in my life. I guess that makes me some kind of a draft dodger too, huh. After all, I DID avoid being drafted, didn't I.<P>Now what have you done for your country? <P>Bush flew century series fighter planes in the Guard. There is some element of risk in that. Now if you have done anything like that for your country, you are free to criticise.<P>hvs<p>[This message has been edited by hvs (edited 04-18-2001).]

[Guest]

hvs, You did serve your time: After ROTC you served your time in full in active duty. No draft dodging there. W did not even finish is his enlistment. He just wandered off to work in politics. There is a difference there.

[Guest]

Jaundiced ~ Thanks. I always thought I did my fair share, especially since the requirement was that I serve 2 years after ROTC. For some reason I did 5. I think I must have liked it, since the pay wasn't all that good in those days. <P>hvs

[Dave@Moon]

W flew in the "champagne division" in the TX ANG. His biggest risk was from flying geese. You couldn't get assigned to that group without a <I> major </I> degree of influence. The Century fighter was an obsolete piece of equipment that would never again be used outside the U.S. borders. Civilian life in 1969 was probably less safe than W's military career, especially for a guy with substance problems. <P>Now for my question, who cares? So W has had life handed to him, so did Kennedy and Roosevelt (and Gore). What matters is that W seems far more Quayle-like than Kennedy-esque. If we're entering as serious an energy crunch as it is believed, that <I> is </I> a problem. Especially given the likelyhood that whatever actions are to be taken will be cleared by the oil industry in advance (they've already paid for that access). Don't expect <I> them </I> to get the call to sacrifice for the good of the Nation.<P>As I said before on the "Howard where are you " thread, this is not a conservative/liberal thing. We have a guy presiding over the Senate that one year ago was CEO of Haliburton, a major lobbier in the fields of oil exploration and RFG. I believe they also make a whole lot of money digging holes for OPEC countries. I tried to check on that, but Haliburton has shut down it's web page. Hmmm....<P>What we have here is the equivalent of having a habitual sexual harasser running the Equal Opportunity Office. <P>Oh, yeah, 1989. I forgot. <P>What we have here is National Security Officers involved in the arming of an enemy country. <P>Oh, yeah, 1987. I forgot. <P>What we have is the Attorney General involved in a myriad of illegal activities for political purposes.<P>Oh, yeah, 1972. I forgot <P>Man, I could use a potatoe right now!

[Guest]

Good to find so many soap boxes around. I got one here someplace too....<P>novaman posted: "Which is better, A businessman or a outright liar that has always made his living out of taxpayers pockets."<P>As I recall reading, W has had two business ventures in his life. He has been active in politics starting in college. And in fact departed his National Guard duty to attend to helping in an election. He never did complete the Guard duty that kept him from serving in Vietnam. A Guard unit that only the sons of well connected Texans could get into that was never going to be sent to 'Nam. As some would see it that makes him a draft dodger. Oh, and rumor has it that W stopped getting Guard physicals when they started checking for drugs.<P>But back to the business experience:<ol>[*]A failed oil exploration company he founded. To be fair, lots of oil exploration companies fail because it is a high risk business. That is not the interesting part. The interesting part is that went from nothing to being a millionaire in that company even though the company never made a profit. The losers were his investors. The owner's are not supposed to come out ahead of the creditors by normal business rules.[*]Ownership in a sports team. This one is interesting. The team franchise was set up with quasi govermental powers for construction of the stadium. It used comdemation proceedings to get its land as what many consider below market value. The stadium was then built for, IIRC, about $30 million at the local city's expense. The title to be turned over to the team in 10 years (by which time the team would have paid $10 million in rent). So the fair tax payers got to pay $3 for every $1 they got back. But we wouldn't want to say that W was living out of the taxpayer's pockets would we.

Ain't "free enterprise" wonderful when it is played by the "good old boy network". This aint no small shop or business owner type experience that W's had.<P>Remember, there is business and there is Business. The large businesses are looking out for themselves and they have the money to do it. Just look at the Digital Millenium Copyright Act to see how your former rights to intellectual property have disappeared. You aren't even allowed to own a machine that might make it possible for you do copy something they don't want you to. And the "they" in this case is not Big Brother government by companies like Disney and Time-Warner.<P>Most people in this country are employed by small businesses and small businesses are hurt the most by regulations. But it is the big businesses that have the most say. And they don't care. And they have their team in office.

[Guest]

DAVE@MOOM~<P> You seriously wouldn't want anyone leading our country to be Kennedy-esque, would you? Aside from the fact the man was assasinated - which was no doubt tragic - he wasn't exactly a great president. His record certainly wouldn't stand on its own merit. What he had was charisma. But charisma alone doesn't make a great president. Grudgingly I admit even Clinton had more than that going for him!<P>The bottom line remains the same - the previous administration wasn't all that interested in working toward lowering our gas prices. The current administration probably won't do much either. Each for their own reasons, of course, but the end result is the same. A Gore administration? They would have done something. They would have restricted our ability to use our "everyday" cars (take public transportation people, I hear it's not that bad!) and most likely made a strong attempt to destroy our hobby (those gas guzzling old vehicles are bad for our air!)- all in the name of the environment. Just think, no hobby and we wouldn't be on this great DF where we can freely debate this can of worms...I mean topic.<P>

[ply33]

The public record of both Al Gore and George W Bush was pretty well known before the election. Neither candidate's record matched their rhetoric. The source of each candidate's money was also public knowledge.<P>I don't think we have any surprises here with George W Bush. Nor would we have had any surprises with Al Gore.<P>I had a co-worker years ago that made the observation that the public pretty much gets the government that it deserves. Seems true to me. In this case we have a public that makes up its mind either on very narrow specific issues or on 30 second sound bites.<P>It would be nice to have everyone cast their vote after careful and extensive research of the candidates, the candidate's record and the needs of the Nation. But I don't think it will happen in my life time.

[Dave@Moon]

Tod,<P><B> AMEN, brother!! </B>

[Dave@Moon]

Patty,<P>In October 1961, while the Joint Chiefs were urging him to make a military strike at Cuba because of the missle silos being constructed their, JFK listened carefully to the minority opinion of the cabinet and National Security advisors and used a blockade to resolve the crisis.<P>Had he followed the Joint Chief advice, civilized life on earth would've been destroyed. It turns out there were already hand launchable nuclear weapons in Cuba, which were under the authority of field commanders there (i.e. not under Moscow's direct control!) An attack would've almost certainly triggered nuclear war.<P>Not a bad day's work for a married guy who fooled around with women!

[Guest]

DAVE@MOON-<P>Not a bad day's work? Okay. But he had 1,000 days. Aside from the fooling around, not much accomplished in the remaining 999.

[Guest]

Look back at the long history of fools, not-so-comptents and philanderers that have lived in the east wing of the White House. We truly do get what we vote for. There was a study done recently, I believe by David Halberstam, about the great US presidents of the 20th century. The thesis was - just how many years in the century did we have superior presidential leadership. The answer, only seven, and I can assure you that bubba wasn't living there during any of those years.

[Dave@Moon]

JFK:<P>1. Civil Rights Legislation initiative, inspite of the fact that it would've cost him the South and likely the election in 1964 (thus the reason for the Dallas trip).<P>2. Organized Crime initiatives, inspite of the fact that the Illinios vote which gave him the election in 1960 was likely their doing.<P>3. Vietnam, he was in the process of pulling the U.S. <I> out </I> of that morass in his last months.<P>4. NASA.<P>5. etc., etc., etc.....<P>No JFK wasn't a great person, and everthing he touched didn't turn to gold. But like/respect him of not, he did have balls of steel (to paraphrase the element noted in the BCA forum as lacking in our government today). As a democratic leader (note the small letter "d"), he was about as good as it gets. <P>I hear W always wears a tie when he walks over to work.