NEWS FLASH!!! Toyota Recall!! Don't you love it!!!

[Dave@Moon]

Q. How Much Does A Hybrid Car Battery Cost?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In November of 2005, when asked about the price of a new Prius battery, Toyota spokeswoman Mona Richard said, "The service parts price for a new battery is $3000, <span style="font-weight: bold">but we have not had to sell a battery yet.</span>" </div></div>

They've been selling Priuses to the public since 1998.

Original batteries are documented to last at least 200,000 miles, usually much more if the car can survive.

In case your friend's "economy car" is out of warrantee , used batteries for all hybrids sell for about $200-$400. As far as anyone knows nobody's bought one except to repair accident damage.

-----

In case anyone's interested I heard that Elvis is still alive, too! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

[Reatta Man]

The subject of this string is STILL correct: Toyota is having serious quality problems. From today's Detroit News Web site:

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060826/AUTO01/608260358/1148

<span style="font-weight: bold">Toyota has faced an increasing number of recalls partly due to its efforts to cut costs by using the same parts on different models.

Japanese authorities have launched a criminal investigation into three Toyota officials suspected of failing to do anything about a faulty steering part, which may have caused a 2004 accident that injured five people.

The U.S. government also has opened an investigation of 2004-2005 Toyota Sienna minivans after receiving complaints that the liftgate had failed, causing the hatchback door to close on motorists. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said earlier this month it received eight complaints and four reports of injuries involving the liftgate. The investigation involves 393,313 Sienna minivans.

And on Friday, Chinese authorities said Toyota will recall 20,069 Crown sedans made in China because of defective rubber strips that seal the windshields.

Toyota also recently settled an embarrassing sexual harassment lawsuit in the U.S. against Hidetaka Otaka, who has since stepped down as the president and chief executive of Toyota's U.S. unit.

</span>

[Guest Skyking]

<span style="font-weight: bold">Oh! what a feeling...........!</span>

this is their way of <span style="font-weight: bold">"Moving Forward"</span>

[Reatta Man]

....more like limping forward.

[Dosmo]

Well, that's it. Toyota is done. Stick a fork in them. Apparently, their greed got the best of them. They have elected to follow the paths set out by GM, Ford & Chrysler, while GM, Ford and Chrysler are trying their level best to follow the path set out by Toyota, Nissan & Honda.

It should be interesting to see where these auto companies are in 4-5 years. Just when Toyota was getting ready to enter the NASCAR series, too. Oh, well...............

[Guest Skyking]

Joe, I'm sooooooo tired of hearing Toyota can do no wrong.........They're car people like everyone else!! They make good cars, but <span style="font-weight: bold">not</span> better cars.

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, that's it. Toyota is done. Stick a fork in them. Apparently, their greed got the best of them. They have elected to follow the paths set out by GM, Ford & Chrysler, while GM, Ford and Chrysler are trying their level best to follow the path set out by Toyota, Nissan & Honda.

It should be interesting to see where these auto companies are in 4-5 years. Just when Toyota was getting ready to enter the NASCAR series, too. Oh, well............... </div></div>

When the American people stop getting brain washed, things might change.

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, that's it. Toyota is done. Stick a fork in them. Apparently, their greed got the best of them. They have elected to follow the paths set out by GM, Ford & Chrysler, while GM, Ford and Chrysler are trying their level best to follow the path set out by Toyota, Nissan & Honda.

</div></div>

........and just who's plants were they touring before they got into the business?????

[Dosmo]

I check out all these different AACA forums because I love reading about antique AMERICAN cars. I wouldn't be looking around for stuff in here if it wasn't for AMERICAN cars. I love the old GM, the old Ford, the old Mopar, Studebaker, Packard, etc. I'm sure you get the idea.

One of my absolute favorites is Buick. Which is why I'm so surprised when I go to a supposed Buick forum and find people there carping about imports and their perceived favorable treatment by the so-called "liberal American Auto Media." You guys are the ones that can't let this stuff go.

Toyota, Honda or Nissan are NEVER going to take the place of our beloved antique cars like the ones I mentioned in the first paragraph. I do believe that in the realm of current and future car sales they will continue to make inroads on the markets formerly dominated by domestic makes. I believe that this will continue to happen even if EVERY ONE of the imports starts having even more recalls.

Get a life, guys. Let's talk about the Buicks from 1985 or so on back. Those are the ones worth talking about on this great forum that's been set up here.

Brainwashed? Well, maybe so. Paying out all those dollars on repairing the American junk I've owned in the last 10-15 years probably has washed my brain completely clean of having any intention of owning more such junk in what little remains of my automotive lifetime.

[55PackardGuy]

Gee, I dunno. It's kind of interesting to have some talk about imports. It isn't like there were NO imports to talk about in the "days of yore" when our favorite cars were new. Lots of VWs of course, some Jags, Mercedes Benz, a few Italian makes, etc.--enough to play plenty of car-spotting games. Imports were FUN! For American makes, MUSTANG, T-BIRD, VETTE, were probably the three most coveted "finds" among us preteen kids. Remember those games? "Mustang on everybody!" Maybe it was a small-town thing, because there weren't a lot of new or unusual cars around. Cars were special--domestic or import--as long as they were coool.

Can't say the Japanese cars that came in the '70s and '80s were very inspiring, even if the games were long gone for me by then. Some VERY cool ones started arriving in the '80s, however, along with the instantly forgettable "appliances."

So, "quality" and "dependability" and all that bosh aside--what's cool? For one thing, with fuel over 10 times as expensive as it was in the early '60s (and getting up there in "real dollars" too), it's nice to be able to afford the GAS to drive the dern thing, so economy seems to be "in." But what about economy with some <span style="font-style: italic">style</span>? I, for one, can forgive a little lapse in the quality-and-dependability department (and even "comfort") if the car is exciting to look at and has some zip--both in the straights and the corners.

How about it? What's the BEST blend of coolness <span style="font-style: italic">and</span> fuel efficiency out there now? What's reasonably affordable to own and <span style="font-style: italic">enticing</span> today, regardless of manufacturer? Include, say, 2005-2007 models.

[Ron Green]

Hard to ignore the fact that all the American car manufactures are somewhat on the ropes due to many issues discussed on these threads. With GM having approximately 35 billion verses Toyota's 200 plus billion in cash reserves and with GM recently taking 8 billion dollar a years losses this topic may not fade away too quickly, especially if our beloved GM has to mandate drastic measures.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hard to ignore the fact that all the American car manufactures are somewhat on the ropes due to many issues discussed on these threads. With GM having approximately 35 billion verses Toyota's 200 plus billion in cash reserves and with GM recently taking 8 billion dollar a years losses this topic may not fade away too quickly, especially if our beloved GM has to mandate drastic measures. </div></div>

Or they can continue to blame the customer....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> When the American people stop getting brain washed, things might change. </div></div>

Actually blaming the customer isn't all a bad idea. One constantly recurring theme on this thread, and several others, is the abject fear of new technology and innovation among those who (by their own description) are GM's biggest fans. By 2008 GM will likely have caught up Toyota in hybrid models, yet here in this thread we continually see GM's biggest fans bash this remarkable achievement as if it were a patriotic duty.

And based on personal experience, "remarkable" barely covers it. I frankly can't see how any car will be marketable as a non-hybrid <span style="font-style: italic">very</span> soon. Reading some of these quotes is like reading Henry Ford's comments on "juice brakes" and independent suspension.

If <span style="font-style: italic">this</span> is your customer base, you've got a problem. I think GM wasted a couple of decades listening to the people who bought their cars instead of listening to the people who didn't, and it's reflected in their product and even in their current planning. <span style="font-style: italic">Everything</span> at GM <span style="font-style: italic">still</span> occurs from "the top down", with inferior models deliberately sold to a low price and "the good cars" strictly reserved for the up-market segments and divisions. Compare the changes at Cadillac with those at Chevrolet (Have there benn any? <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />) to see how this has played out.

As such some very important progress made by other manufacturers passed them by, particularly re. the reliablility of low-line models which were their recruiting tools for new customers. Now, if you want an inexpensive Chevy or Pontiac you're actually buying a Daewoo or Toyota product (or formerly Isuzu/Suzuki/Kia products), and you'd have to be pretty dim not to know that when you look at them. As a result those lines (Nova, LUV, Sprint, Le Mans, the Geo models, Aerio, etc.) have never sold in numbers reflective of their worth because they're rejected by both ends of the market, GM fans and "import" fans.

GM has to stop listening to unworthy opinions. The "average view" will create average cars, nothing more. "Average" wasn't good enough, and it gets worse every year.

[Ron Green]

If you ask those that have been spewing venom in GM's direction when the last time they drove one of their quality vehicles for an extended period of time, and not a low end throw away typically many answer back "in the 80's or 90's." Granted there have been some issues, recalls, etc but nothing like in the past.

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> One constantly recurring theme on this thread, and several others, is the abject fear of new technology and innovation among those who (by their own description) are GM's biggest fans. By 2008 GM will likely have caught up Toyota in hybrid models, yet here in this thread we continually see GM's biggest fans bash this remarkable achievement as if it were a patriotic duty.

</div></div>

You talk like every car Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Kia and Hyundia build are hybrids. This is not the case. Infact, most of the import buyers now would shy away from that technology. Most of the SUV's you hate so much are large Toyotas and Lexus's with V8s.

If you don't think showing Toyota commercials repeatedly every 10 minutes doesn't have any effect on people's minds, well, your not as smart a person that I thought you were.

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you ask those that have been spewing venom in GM's direction when the last time they drove one of their quality vehicles for an extended period of time, and not a low end throw away typically many answer back "in the 80's or 90's." Granted there have been some issues, recalls, etc but nothing like in the past. </div></div>

Ron, this is the biggest problem Ford, GM, and Chrysler have today. These people had issues in the 70's & 80's and won't even think about a domestic again.......

[Guest John Chapman]

Ron,

I'll not spew venom, I'll just say that 'Detroit' hasn't done the job for decades. I travel a lot, and have the opportunity to drive a number of mainline offerings from US companies. Recent rides have been the Ford 500 (three), the Impala (four), a Rendevous, a Malibu, a Vibe, a Durango, a couple of other GM cars. Frankly, as good as the Impala and the 500 are, they still fall short of their main competition in suspension refinement and drive train. I also suspect that the lower quality of interior trim will not wear well and give up well before the rolling parts are done. In my opinion, the material quality used through out it where the downfall in Detroit comes. It is apparent when you go look at five year old, 60-80K mileage vehicles that the superior material quality wears better, cleans better, and looks better.

The damnable shame of it is that <span style="font-style: italic">WE</span> conceptualized and initially developed most of the techniques and technology in the US that the Asian car brands are using to their advantage, to wit:

Quality Control processess developed by Deming were conceptualized in the US, extensively offered to (and refused by) Detroit, yet rigorously adopted by Japanese manufacturers, notably, Toyota and Honda.

Electronic engine controls, ABS, automatic transmission technology, hybrid propulsion controls, VHS, CD/DVD, TV.... and on and on... are products/concepts we developed but never fully implemented...

I think Dave Moon hit the nail on the head. Keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result is insanity...or, a long downward slide to bankruptcy.

Cheers,

JMC

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Frankly, as good as the Impala and the 500 are, they still fall short of their main competition in suspension refinement and drive train.

Cheers,

JMC </div></div>

John, in your opinion, who would be their competition?

[Guest John Chapman]

Sky,

For the Impala and 500, I'd say the full line of Camrys and Accords, the low end of the Avalons, the mid range Acura.

Cheers,

JMC

[Ron Green]

Having rode in a coworkers new BMW and VW diesel Jetta both seats were small and felt like sitting on rocks, interiors were tiny and loaded with plastic, above average road noise, etc. I was not impressed, especially considering their cost.

When both rode in my Bonneville they commented on how well appointed the leather interior was, how quite it was in the cabin and how well the air suspension made it ride. Both have hated American vehicles since the mid 80's however neither believe in any kind of maintenance. Run them till they stop is their mind set, then complain.

There are many with the same attitude and if they had an opportunity to drive a Buick Lacerne, Impala, Chrysler 300, Cadillac, etc most would probably change their thoughts regarding American cars. But that probably won't happen any time soon, unfortunately.

[Gene Brink]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Having rode in a coworkers new BMW and VW diesel Jetta both seats were small and felt like sitting on rocks, interiors were tiny and loaded with plastic, above average road noise, etc. I was not impressed, especially considering their cost.</div></div> Ron, I don't know about the "plastic" (assuming you mean cheap looking as ALL cars are loaded with plastic) in any BMW - all I've seen are well appointed with very high quality materials. Might be that you don't find the rather Spartan look appealing (I don't either - a bit too plain). Have never sat in a diesel Jetta but gas powered models are similar to the BMW with regard to quality. German cars are certainly a bit snug with windows curving in close to ones head at top - not a feel I like. Seats are firm but if one travels in either car on a long trip you will appreciate the design.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When both rode in my Bonneville they commented on how well appointed the leather interior was, how quite it was in the cabin and how well the air suspension made it ride. Both have hated American vehicles since the mid 80's however neither believe in any kind of maintenance. Run them till they stop is their mind set, then complain.</div></div> If it is any consolidation if both to not believe in any kind of maintenance either car will be one of the worst they ever owned pretty quickly. Neither are low maintenance in nature. Can not say that I blame them on their opinion of most American cars for say the mid '70's - mid '80's. Probably the absolute bottom when product is compared to the competition and am very glad that they are so much better now. (P.S. Get similar comments about my Park Ave's interior and ride and when there is a need to pack six people into a single car there isn't much debate about who is driving.)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are many with the same attitude and if they had an opportunity to drive a Buick Lacerne, Impala, Chrysler 300, Cadillac, etc most would probably change their thoughts regarding American cars. But that probably won't happen any time soon, unfortunately. </div></div> It indeed will take time. Import sales were very low for years simply because the prevailing attitude of buyers was "cheap import" and they continued to buy American. Only problem with that was they observed the "nut" who bought a VW/Datsun/Toyota, etc and saw that he/she never seemed to have as much trouble with their car as he/she had with hers/his and when it came time to buy another car they began looking, liking AND buying imports in huge numbers. No reason to think reversing that trend will take any less time is there? (As an aside it just floors me that so many on this forum seem to think there are so many mistaken people - auto magazines, consumer magazines, auto purchasers who mistakenly think a given car is better than another. Seems to me that when the evidence from many different sources reach the same conclusion that that conclusion has to have at least an element of truth. Right? Having said that it is NOT a poor choice to buy an American car for objective reasons - they are reliable [just not the most reliable in most cases], deliver good value for your $$$, perform reasonably well, etc. Consumer Reports shows they are generally more reliable than European cars and closing on the Japanese makes but to buy one "just because it is American" strikes me as more of the same kind of thinking that got the US auto industry into the place it is today. Will they be able to further close the gap and return to financial health? Who knows? I don't think all makes will make the cut and hope Buick is not one of those who do not make it. All things considered I like my Park Av and will stick with it, thank you!)

[Ron Green]

Gene, Good comments!

Quote; "German cars are certainly a bit snug with windows curving in close to ones head at top - not a feel I like."

Me neither as I have a lump on my head trying to enter the VW Jetta. The new Jetta has a lot of plastic also.

Quote; "Seems to me that when the evidence from many different sources reach the same conclusion that the conclusion has to have at least an element of truth. Right?"

I don't believe all that is reported regarding vehicles these days. They have to watch what they state for fear of being sued plus I am unsure if they would give a bad report on a sponsor?

Quote; "when there is a need to pack six people into a single car there isn't much debate about who is driving."

Sounds like me when a crowd is around we all usually jump in my Chevy Centurion Pick up where 6 is no problem.

[Reatta Man]

What is a Chevy Centurion pickup? That's a new one on me.

[Ron Green]

It is a factory authorized modified 4-door back when extended cab 3 doors were only available. The paperwork states the front is a Fleetside and the rear is a Silverado and they are welded together. GM sent the trucks to the Centurion Company in Michigan.

When 4-doors started selling big time they decided to make their own as it was a 10K option which was a lot back in the 90's, considering the cost of a plain pick up. Many sat on lots unsold. Attached is a picture of my 97 Centurion tow mule

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sky,

For the Impala and 500, I'd say the full line of Camrys and Accords, the low end of the Avalons, the mid range Acura.

Cheers,

JMC </div></div>

John, while on vacation in Florida last January, I rented a new Impala for 2 weeks. I was very impressed with the ride, comfort and gas millage. I can't see where the Camry or Accord can even come close to the ride it gave....also my son-in-law has a forty something thousand dollar Acura TL he bought new,(more than mid range) and it won't come close to the Impala in that same respect..I find most imports ride noisy and hard.............I do find most relatives of mine that do drive imports agree that American cars ride better. As far as the Avalon, I've never rode in one.....but it is priced much high than the Impala.

[Guest Skyking]

Ron, I like your rig.........I can fit 2 Mets in that trailor......

[Dosmo]

I owned a 2004 Impala base model from Aug. 2004 until May 2006. I liked it OK, but I had recurring problems with the front suspension. I was never impressed with the car, as I found the drivetrain very noisy. But, it did drive, handle & ride fairly well. I traded it with 57000 mi on the odometer for a 2003 Avalon XL, which is the lower end Avalon. The Avalon is noticeably better in every single regard, as far as I am concerned, although I feel that it should be. I believe that the Avalon is somewhat up-market from the Impala.

However, my sister owns a 2002 Accord, which I would agree is a direct competitor for the Impala. The one area in which I might find the Impala superior would be the shoulder room - it seems just slightly larger inside than the Honda - otherwise, the Honda wins hands down. It is FAR quieter, and the fit & finish are FAR better. And the stereo system in both the Toyota and the Honda absolutely blow the Chevy out of the water.

I keep hearing people in here giving favorable comparisons to GM vs. imports. Sky, you say you can't see where Camry or Accord come close to the ride of the Impala. Have you actually ridden in either one? If so, when, what were the year models and other honest head-to-head statistics?

Man oh man, I just don't understand all this - I'm 53 years old and I have driven GM, Ford or Chrysler all my life until I bought a new Mazda pickup in 1986 - it was a great little truck, but small - I traded it for an 89 Suburban in 1993 when my family got bigger - drove that Suburban till 2004 when the engine gave up the ghost with 213000 miles - I loved it, but it drunk gas - that's when I bought the Impala - that car never impressed me from the moment I bought it - I traded it on the Avalon and have never regretted it for one moment

So, I'm not some commie pinko fag that has hated American cars for 20 years - I just have an opinion, and that opinion is that RIGHT NOW, the Japanese cars are more bang for the buck - that may change in the future, and if it does, if it's in my lifetime, maybe I'll buy American again

I'm just wondering if all these people who are whining about people not giving GM cars a break have ever DARED to seriously consider the merits of buying a (boo-hiss) Japanese ride. Let's hear from those guys - they know who they are

[Guest Skyking]

54wagon, I did a comparison between a Camry and Century awhile ago here......

http://forums.aaca.org/showflat.php?Cat=...ge=9#Post359007

At the time of this thread, I didn't ride in an Accord, but have since, a 2005. The new Impalas blows them both away..........sorry if my opinion offends anyone.

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I'm just wondering if all these people who are whining about people not giving GM cars a break have ever DARED to seriously consider the merits of buying a (boo-hiss) Japanese ride. Let's hear from those guys - they know who they are </div></div>

I, for one, never had any reason too.......all my American cars & trucks have served me well.

[Ron Green]

Quote; "I'm just wondering if all these people who are whining about people not giving GM cars a break have ever DARED to seriously consider the merits of buying a (boo-hiss) Japanese ride. Let's hear from those guys - they know who they are"

My brother switched over to Honda's years ago however he always comments how nice either of my Bonneville's ride. Having ridden in his vehicles many times I just don't see that big of an advantage with the exception of the gas milage which there is a 10 MPG difference. Service and maintenance have been about the same for both of us however 4 adults in his car for any extended amount of time just isn't comfortable.

I also assisted him when he had a flat tire at night. I plug in the hand spotlight in the Pontiac to give him some light, open the trunk so he can use the flush mounted air compressor and 25' of air hose, only after putting the gloves on, all factory options.

[Gene Brink]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't believe all that is reported regarding vehicles these days. They have to watch what they state for fear of being sued plus I am unsure if they would give a bad report on a sponsor.</div></div> Ron, Should cut the same way for both domestic and imports, right? This is actually the same argument Consumer Reports offers as why their reports are unbiased (and it may be true that they are less biased than some but to say so smacks of elitism to say the least) in comparison to others. Again, for me, when I keep reading the same general conclusions on any number of points I begin to figure there is something to the finding (although it does always outweigh the "heart factor" when making a purchase). <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Gene Brink]

I find most imports ride noisy and hard Kind of like your Metros? <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[Ron Green]

I learned many years ago and I'm sure you would agree , don't believe everything you here or in this case reported import or domestic.

I bought a new 86 Dodge Van that was slammed by the testers due to so called transmission troubles & failures, etc. Twenty years later and 155K miles it runs and shifts like the day it was bought. Zero oil consumption or leaks. Could be an AACA national winner in a few years with some elbow grease. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

[Dave@Moon]

About 10 years ago <span style="font-style: italic">Consumer Reports</span> began including past reliability data for trucks as well as cars in their annual "auto" issue in April. That year they published a summary chart of reliability for the the big 3 trucks back to 1980 to make up for lost data. (<span style="font-style: italic">They'd been gathering the information and never bothered to compile or publish it previously.</span>)

During the 1980's, particularly during the early 1980's, when Chrysler cars were the bottom of the barrel in reliability, the Dodge trucks were head and shoulders better than GM or Ford in their data. (<span style="font-style: italic">As I recall there was something like a 75% lower rate of reported problems at one point!</span>)

Dodge had a considerable advantage in this area until 1993, presumably because demand from that year's popular pickup restyle (the mini-Kenworth) had pushed sales beyond capacity (or at least beyond Quality Control's capacity). They've since sunk below both Ford & GM.

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Dodge had a considerable advantage in this area until 1993, presumably because demand from that year's popular pickup restyle (the mini-Kenworth) had pushed sales beyond capacity (or at least beyond Quality Control's capacity). They've since sunk below both Ford & GM. </div></div>

I guess it all depends on who they ask.......My 2000 Ram V6, (which is a 318 W/O the last two cylinders) has 121,000 + miles on it and still rides new, looks new and got a little over 21mpg going to & from Macungie and didn't burn a drop of oil. My brother owns a tire shop in Mass and only buys Dodge's. He has a small Fleet ranging in different years from new to old. He won't buy anything but. How can anyone honestly complain about that? Why would I possibly want an import? Maybe CR is bias on who they ask or what they report.

And let's face it, having any discussion with <span style="font-weight: bold">you</span> is like hitting a brick wall going 90.......

[Guest greg72monte]

.

[Guest Skyking]

thanks Greg for fixing that! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And let's face it, having any discussion with <span style="font-weight: bold">you</span> is like hitting a brick wall going 90....... </div></div>

My mistake. I forgot you and your brother are the final authority in all things having lived the universal experience.

It might happen again. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

[Guest greg72monte]

This thread is probably destined for the basement.......

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

My mistake. I forgot you and your brother are the final authority in all things having lived the universal experience.

</div></div>

Geez, for the last 6 years, I always assumed it was you, but I guess I shouldn't assume............my mistake!

[Guest Skyking]

<img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />