Packard V8 boat motors

[Tritone]

made by Stokes Marine Co.

circa 1955-57

want to buy motors and/or parts.

TIA,

James

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Its not clear to me what u r are asking or telling. Are these engines V8's???? Specifically WHICH parts do u need????? I'm guessing cam, distributor and Ex manifilds are the only the difference between marine and automotive. So u just need a cam, dist and manifold???? Dual engine applications???? Does one engine turn opposite clockwise???

[Guest dave327]

I heard there was a 412 cid Packard V8 for marine use. I'd be interested to know more.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

412 IS entirely possible with the 374 and 5/16 inch added to stroke.

For ez math consider a 4 inch piston. 4 inch piston has at least 12 square inches X 5/16 extra stroke = 3.75 x 8 cylinders picks up at least another 30 cubic inches to 405 cid total. NOT to mention the trmendous increase in Compression ratio.

[Jack_Vines]

I serviced a few of the Stokes marine conversions back in the early '60s and know for a fact they were just standard passenger car engines with the marine exhaust manifolds and transmission. They were NOT 412" or anything weird. Just another urban legend.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Were any of them twin engine boats???? How about the lifter clatter problem??? did the Boats have the lifter clatter problem that was so rampant among the Packard V8 engines?????? How late did they use these engines in boats???

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Why does that name Jack Vines ring a bell to me????? Are u in the Detroit area???? Maybe had some association with Mauri Rose, Bob Cliff or Duntov???

[Packard8]

There were a few marine conversions that used the Packard V8. I have one with stainless steel water-cooled exhaust manifolds, dual thermostats (one on the front of each head) and an oil cooler built into the pan. It?s mated to a big heavy Paragon manual reverse gear. ?Santees Marine, Stockton CA? is stamped on the manifolds.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

What kind of boat is it in???? Dual engine???

[Packard8]

I found it in a storage container at a local boatyard??not sure what it was in. The owner thought it was a ?big block Ford? and wasn?t interested in keeping it. He also had a V8 Chrysler hemi marine with 6 or 8 1 bbl carbs sitting beside it, but he wouldn?t part with that one.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

If u get a chance, turn the crank and note if the distributor turns backwards. I'm not a marine engine expert but i think the reverse turning engines retained original distributor rotation due to oil pump.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Any markings like engine number of the engine???

[Packard8]

It has a serial number in the usual place, stamped ?SP 103? A wild guess would be that SP is Studebaker-Packard, and 103 a running number. The crankshaft and distributor rotation are normal.

Most marine engines that were converted from passenger car engines just fitted a counter-rotating reverse gear for twin engine applications. Purpose-built pure marine engines could be ordered with right or left hand rotation, and some older tug diesels were reversible. To reverse, the engine was stopped, then restarted in the opposite rotation.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Hmmmmmmmmmm. Let me guess. IT's painted Blue about like a ford blue??? I have a bare block SP21161 stamped at the oil filler area like LATE 56 engines. There is what resembles a |9| at the rite rear cylinder boss (as were most 55 thru mid-56's. The "9" could be read as a "6" depending on how u look at it. The "|" is a verticle bar larger than the digit. I'm guessing the marine engines were blue with SP xxxxx numbers. Are your numbers at the usual rite rear cylinder pad or near the oil filler tube like late 56 engines?????

[Packard8]

Nope, the color is a medium gray, and there are no signs of other colors beneath the scratches & chips. The S/N is near the oil filler. If I remember correctly, it also has plain valve covers (without "Packard") like the 56J's and I'm guessing also the Hashes.

It is stored at my place in another state, but I'll be there over Xmas and record the casting numbers and take some digital pix. One Packard guru who looked at it thought it was a 1955 352, but I'm not sure.

[OleBook]

For your information, there is a Stokes Marine Supply Packard V-8 engine on display at the Packard Proving Grounds Museum in Utica, MI. There are very few survivors of these engines out there as far as I know. I am aware of only two (and a half) others, but there are likely to be some more. Any tips in finding one are welcomed.

[Packard8]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">made by Stokes Marine Co.

circa 1955-57

want to buy motors and/or parts.

TIA,

James </div></div>

Hey James, did you have any luck on the Stokes V8 in Stockton?

John

[Tritone]

Hi John,

I got as far as 'helping' him to decide not to install the Packard! (too hard to find parts/too heavy/not authentic/etc,etc).

I'm waiting for him to determine a selling price ....... and still hoping!

James

[Packard8]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hi John,

I got as far as 'helping' him to decide not to install the Packard! (too hard to find parts/too heavy/not authentic/etc,etc).

I'm waiting for him to determine a selling price ....... and still hoping!

James </div></div>

Hope it works out, his price for the whole project didn't seem out of line. I used to have a Chebby 283 "nose-drive" unit that would have been just right for his Chrissy, but it's gone now.

Keep us posted!....BTW, the supercharged motor shown above appears to have tubular exh manifolds much like my "Andres Marine" version. I think mine is either a 320 or 352 by the casting dates.

Good luck on your search

[Packard8]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For your information, there is a Stokes Marine Supply Packard V-8 engine on display at the Packard Proving Grounds Museum in Utica, MI. There are very few survivors of these engines out there as far as I know. I am aware of only two (and a half) others, but there are likely to be some more. Any tips in finding one are welcomed. </div></div>

Hi & welcome,

I have a slightly different permutation than the Stokes V8. It was made by Andres Marine in Stockton, CA. Here is a link to a prior thread with some pix.

http://forums.aaca.org/showflat.php?Cat=...true#Post345121

John

[Tritone]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For your information, there is a Stokes Marine Supply Packard V-8 engine on display at the Packard Proving Grounds Museum in Utica, MI. There are very few survivors of these engines out there as far as I know. I am aware of only two (and a half) others, but there are likely to be some more. Any tips in finding one are welcomed. </div></div>

Hello OleBook -

I also am interested in the Stokes Packards. I have one now, I'm hoping to get another shortly, and know of one other in pieces.

These are all in addition/diffferent to the Andres Marine version that PackardV8 has. Do you have any information to share?

Any pix of the one you mentioned in Utica?

James

[R W Burgess]

Do you fellows still want this thread moved to the General Forum. I'd need more than "two" votes!

Wayne

[Guest Randy Berger]

I think those fellows want it moved to the PACKARD general forum. If that is so, I vote AYE.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Tritone,

The wet exhaust manifold is the hardest part of converting an engine that came from a car to be used in a boat, but they can be made to fit any engine, if you have someone that is a very good welder.

Have you desided what type drive unit you want to use: Jet-pump, sterndrive, shaft prop, etc. ? Personally I prefer a Jet pump, since it's much easyer to connect up to engine crankshaft. Don't need a gearbox, a short driveshaft, bolted directly to crank, is all that is needed.

[Tritone]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ......The wet exhaust manifold is the hardest part of converting an engine that came from a car to be used in a boat, but they can be made to fit any engine, if you have someone that is a very good welder. Have you desided what type drive unit you want to use: Jet-pump, sterndrive, shaft prop, etc.? ....</div></div>

Speedster - you aren't kidding about the wet exhausts being the critical issue!!

One of my motors is useless until I solve that problem - the existing cast iron ones have been frost-split & repaired so many times they're very fragile.

New castings are prohibitively expensive due to the pattern-making costs.

I have drawn a design for a welded-up tube exhaust system (kind of like a tubular header encased in a square-section box), but have yet to find anyone willing to try to fab them.

Regarding the drive; this is a 'replication' of a '30's era "gentlemans raceabout", ala numerous John Hacker designs, so a transmission and direct shaft drive is the only way. Transmission, shaft, rudder, etc. are no problem, lots of Chris Craft stuff available on the net. But the exhausts are stopping me for a bit; I have even considered fabbing simple 'zoomies' exiting out of the engine hatches or the topsides of the hull. Problem is they are too loud & I don't like the particular sound they provide.

Most people would just throw in chevy small block and be done with it, but I like unusual motors!

James

[Joe Block]

Reverse turning engine were used in boar to contact act the rotation of the screws on twin engine set up. It is possible it turns in reverse. say a starter and and a cam change. I be curious about the distributor rotation. It seem to me in my be a different gear on the shaft. i use to work in Marine shop that build open ocean racers. We also saw a lot of blown engines.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I've seen different Gear-boxes used for Counter-rotation prop but never an engine that ran Backwards ? Since gasoline and diesel engines need a gear-box to gear down their high RPM anyway, it's no big deal to gear one of them to turn in opposite direction.

That's another advantage of Jet-pump drives, there's No rotational forces, so you can have multiple engines and drives and Still Don't need any kind of Gear-boxes.

[Tritone]

Actually, reverse-rotation motors for boats are quite common.

Chris Craft small block V8's both L and R are normal; Mercury Marine does it with big blocks up to 600 ci,

Falconers are available L & R, my 1930 Scripps 900 ci V12 can be changed from L to R just by flipping the cams front to back; the list goes on......normal stuff for boat persons!

james

[Owen_Dyneto]

The in-line Packard IM-245 and IM-356 marine motors were offered in pairs with both clockwise and counterclockwise rotation, and of course a variety of step-down gear reductions. You can go thru the parts books for these motors and pick out the parts that were changed for the different rotation, interesting reading.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

A boat is floating in WATER!!!! The L & R turning engines are used to conteract the momentum of the crank and flywheel rotation (not the props). Next time u lift the hood on your car race the engine rpm and watch how it tries to lift the left side of the engine and the car. Then u can imagine what it would do in a boat, especialy if there were two engines turning the same direction..

[Tritone]

Packard V8 -

Sorry, have to disagree with you on this point....

Disconnect the prop shaft on the boat, rev the motor(s), and the boat will just roll a little bit (couple of inches?)

(we did that at Lake Tahoe years ago with one of Gar Woods twin-Packard Gold Cuppers - great fun til one drive shaft disconnected itself, ripped off the front deck, and flew about 150' out into the lake).

Even 3000 HP only moved the hull a few inches....

Now reconnect the shaft, rev the motor (in gear of course), and you're mooooving, to the opposite side!

And if both motors are left-rotation, just you try to make tight turn to stbd......opposite & ditto for right rotating motors.

(background feature of the Miss America's; both motors turn left hand, running counterclockwise courses; they wanted to turn left!)

With both motors in opp rotation, they neutralize the torque of the props; now the rudders allow a nice tight turn to port or stbd.

And by putting one trans in forward & the other in reverse you can pirouette in your own length!

James

[Jack_Vines]

Hi, Tritone,

Had a question from a noted Packard restorer, Ole Book, of North Bergen, NJ. He wants to confirm which waterpump was used on the Packard V8 marine conversions. He has some photos which suggest a remote pump, not the stock car pump. What have you seen?

thnx, jv.

[Packard8]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hi, Tritone,

Had a question from a noted Packard restorer, Ole Book, of North Bergen, NJ. He wants to confirm which waterpump was used on the Packard V8 marine conversions. He has some photos which suggest a remote pump, not the stock car pump. What have you seen?

thnx, jv. </div></div>

The Andres Marine engine I have had a remote water pump (now gone missing, see photo here:)

http://forums.aaca.org/showflat.php?Cat=...true#Post345121 )

The one Stokes Marine I have seen in person also had what looked like a Jabsco Water Puppy mounted on a front bracket with about an 8 inch spoked pulley running off the crank.

[Tritone]

Jack -

both. pix attached

[Tritone]

next pic

[Tritone]

Jack -

any response from your fabricator re marine manifolds for my V8?

james

[55PackardGuy]

Well folks, personal experience. Darn old '61 runabout in my back yard right now with counter-rotating single Ford 292 inboard engine.

Why do they do that? Well, I believe a "right-hand" rotating prop is preferred in a single-screw setup with fixed prop (see below), and if you want the engine to be sitting facing "forward" in the boat, it HAS to rotate in reverse to turn the prop in a RH direction (as you face the prop from the rear).

Another engine arrangement sometimes used to get RH rotation: turn the engine "backward" in the boat and take power off what ordinarily would be the front of the engine.

Now exactly WHY RH rotation is preferred, I can only speculate, but I think it has to do with ease of handling for the cap'n. He or she is sitting to the right side of the boat, and the torque will tend to LIFT this seat up--better visibility and easier navigation on takeoff, and, to me, it just feels natural that the captain gets to feel that nice upward surge. You're supposed to be on top of things.

EASY WAY TO TELL WHICH WAY THE ENGINE IS SUPPOSED TO TURN ON YOUR BOAT: look at the markings on the prop sleeve that fits over the shaft. It'll be stamped with something like: 11-13 RH (which happens to be exactly what mine says. It means 11" prop on a 13" pitch (see below) Right-Hand rotation.

Pitch means that, if the prop was an actual "screw" in a solid bore, it would travel 13" forward for every ONE rotation of the prop. That's a steep pitch! (Old Trojan Ski Bee 17' water-ski tow is what my boat is. And it runs! Not Packard power, though).

More than you wanted to know, and perhaps a lot you already knew, but I believe the facts are all square. Happy boating! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Packard8]

Hi Guy,

The motors that drive off of the front are called a ?nose drive? configuration. I had a Chebby 283 set up like that in an old 24? Owens. AFAIK, most automotive marine conversions rotated in the same direction as their on the road counterparts. The rotation of the prop shaft is determined by the gearbox ?? it will usually say on the data plate ?RH? or ?LH?. My last ?big boat? was a 36? Owens sportfisher with twin Detroit 4-53?s. They were both standard clockwise rotation but had either a RH & LH Borg-Warner Velvet Drive behind each.

Sounds like you have a neat old boat! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Tritone]

55PackardGuy -

How can a single-engined boat with one prop be "counter-rotating"? ( jk )

Also, not all boats (runabouts) are right-hand drive.....4 of mine are left-hand drive, 2 are RH.

Your speculation re RHD sounds good, but I really don't think there is a definitive answer.

And, the usual reason to take the drive off the front of the motor is to get the motor lower in the hull (oil pan to front 'stead of rear), rather than for prop rotation reasons....

James

[55PackardGuy]

55PackardGuy -

How can a single-engined boat with one prop be "counter-rotating"? ( jk )

Also, not all boats (runabouts) are right-hand drive.....4 of mine are left-hand drive, 2 are RH.

Your speculation re RHD sounds good, but I really don't think there is a definitive answer.

And, the usual reason to take the drive off the front of the motor is to get the motor lower in the hull (oil pan to front 'stead of rear), rather than for prop rotation reasons....

James

Just looking at this interesting old thread and realized I'd failed to respond to the author's last post. Since the thread gets lots of "views" my aversion to loose ends compels me to reply to James' comments:

A single-engined boat with one prop can have a "counter-rotating" engine in the sense that the engine is rotating 'counter' to its original design (RH instead of LH from the perspective of the driver).

I'd be curious to know if left-hand drive boats tend to also have LH rotating props, for the same reason I gave earlier for right-hand drive boats having RH rotating props-- to "lift" the driver clear for a better view on initial acceleration.

The "usual reason" to take the drive off the front of the motor may not always work to lower the engine because of oil pan clearance. It depends on the pickup location and also the type of pan. For instance, the pan on my Y-block is flat, and the pickup is in the rear, thus there is no advantage in taking power off the front of this engine. It wouldn't place it any lower in the hull and would require re-positioning of the oil pickup.