bugle technical advisors(that don't advise)

[Guest imported_65gs76limited]

ever look in the back of the bugle for a tech advisor? most have a phone # and email address to contact, some just email and some have just a snail mail address listed. the issue of older members of the club not having computers has been discuss on this board before and yet we have tech advisors that only list email address. i understand this advise is given on their own time and they are not getting paid for their time. if they don't want to be bothered then they shouldn't be advisors. the one's that give phone # also give times to call and i believe this should be respected, but on the same hand if you put your name out there then you should make yourself available to everyone. also, usually when someone needs tech advise they need it sooner that mailing it to a advisor and waiting for them to snail mail it back. just my opinion and i'am going to get jumped all over for this, if you can't list a phone # then you don't need to be a advisor. now go-ahead and give it to me i have big shoulders and can take it. thanks for listening tom.

[Buicks Rule]

Tom,

Glad you recognize that the BCA tech advisors are volunteers who do NOT get any phone calls, copying or other expenses reimbursed by the club. Depending on the popularity of the car, this can be a significant time and $$ commitment on the part of the advisor.

And, unfortunately, not all club members are as respectful of the contact times that some advisors have listed. Some tech advisors have gotten calls in the middle of the night because the person seeking advice didn't bother to THINK about the time differences. It's one thing when this happens Australia or Europe to the US--CA to NY is another thing.

Another issue is that people don't always refer to the most recent Bugle when they try to contact a tech advisor. In at least one case a tech advisor passed away. His info was deleted from the newly published Bugles very quickly at the family's request. Unfortunately his survivors spent months ( like 2 years ) having to tell callers using old Bugles that he had passed away which caused them a great deal of additional stress.

One of the most common reasons people give for NOT volunteering to be a tech advisor is actually in your post above. They don't feel that their contribution is appreciated by the person they are trying to help.

Why don't you talk to Barney Eaton, the tech advisor coordinator directly? If you have an issue with someone not responding to you, he can help you get it resolved.

Other than possibly Joe, one of the by mail only folks knows more about his area of expertise than ANYONE else in the world. You do NOT want this gentleman to decide that his contributions are NOT appreciated. THAT would be a huge loss to the membership. The man I'm thinking of has very specific reasons for wanting to work via mail only. It's his call--he's the volunteer.

[Bill Stoneberg]

Tom,

I finished reading your post last night at 11 pm my time. I had just spent the better part of 2 hours looking up part numbers and tracing the changes needed to help someone with a problems they were having on a year that I am an advisor on. I will spend MY money and more of my time copying and mailing this information out to them.

Granted I may not be the quickest to answer questions, emails and calls that I have, but I have a life of my own and tasks that have priority over Buick stuff.

As opposed to calling the kettle black, why dont YOU try being an advisor for a the year that you are familiar with. See how you can help instead of just complaining. It might be a learning experience for you.

You should be happy someone has stepped up and volunteered for these tasks. If not, where would you go for information ?

[Guest my3buicks]

While yes, having a phone number to call a tech advisor would be preferable, again, it's a volunteer position that takes alot of time, $$, and yes, sometimes effort. If you are an advisor for some of the more popular years/eras you would be AMAZED at how many calls you get. Not even for that year only, but for model years before and after also. If you don't catch the call you usually get a message to call back on your dime, and as posted above it is also amazing how many calls you get early early in the morning, late late at night, Holidays, right at the dinner hour (my family gets a little frustrated at times with me taking calls then). Often you need to dig thru your resorces to pull out info, take copies and send/fax - this is regularly more than just a quick glance at a book, but involves a substantial amount of digging thru references, etc. Oh, and even nicer is when you give solid correct tech advise and they go to a national and get deducted for something that you advised on by a judge that is not quite with it and it's YOUR fault they lost the point(hard to believe a tech advisor just might be right). AS far as eamil only - really, how many people don't know someone that could send off an email for you if you need the info quickly. I have been in the program since the inception of it, even with the "inconvenieces" of the job, I have always found it to be very rewarding and satisfying experience, have made MANY Buick friends, and love doing it and will hopefully be able to continue doing it for many many years. So, unless your gripe involves you not getting the info you need from your particular tech advisor or the tech advisor not responding to you, then your gripe falls of deaf ears here.

[Guest]

These posts offer both sides of a tough issue. If I were an advisor I feel it would be fun to be a part of a restoration or know of other cars in my area of interest that are being restored. It would also make me feel important and vital to the hobby. I would love to have the expertise in a particular year to offer myself as an advisor but I don't.

That being said, I can imagine getting disrespectful calls because I do. I am a professional mechanic and people call me or stop me at my other job (non mechanic) and ask me questions. Sometimes they call at odd times and I spend quality family time responding to their needs.

As for snail mail. I like email but when I was in the Oldsmobile Club I corresponded with their 1941 technical advisor by snail mail and got a TON of information back in a fairly timely manner - very helpful guy, friendly. Sometimes, I like a letter so I can think through an issue and it won't get accidentally deleted or I can provide a more thoughtful response. Sometimes, phone calls cath a person by surprise and they have to collect their thoughts.

So, try snail mail. Provide a complete written request for information and try to include possible future issue. Include a photo of your project, with you in the picture to humanize the request even more. Finally, if the advisor is slow to respond, or responds cooly, then get the national coordinator involved and maybe they can locate another advisor to be listed in those years as well. There can be more then 1 advisor per year I hope.

Thanks,

Bryan Moran

crazy4abby

[The Old Guy]

I have also been a tech advisor since the system was initiated. The above posts pretty well covered the things that we go through, but there is one other thing that happens, and I do not know why. I am listed as an advisor for engines and drive lines ONLY. Many people call ,some at 3AM, and want to know what color the oil filter should be on an engine that is not even listed under my name. I think all the tech advisors do a great service, and I'm sorry if you feel that volunteers should be at your beck and call any time, but that is NOT how the system works!

[Guest brh]

I have been a tech advisor since the start and have not experienced a lot of negative responses, I did have someone hunt me down and call even though my number is not listed. Luckily, it was not at a bad time and I had the info the person wanted. Its a job I enjoy, I have met a lot of great people. Tech advisors are a source, if you don't want to use it, then don't.

[Matt Harwood]

I, too, have been on both sides of the issue. I recently built a rotisserie for my Buick's restoration, and documented it on my website (in signature, below). I have a .PDF document you can download that has blueprints and a materials list. I don't make any money from this endeavor, but I thought others could benefit from my experience and knowledge.

To date, I have no idea how many people have satisfactorily used the plans. Maybe none. But I do know exactly how many people have criticized me for omitting things like a place where they can buy the grease fittings I used or for failing to tell them how to cut thick steel plate at home. One guy even E-mailed complaining that I didn't put my phone number on the plans so he could call and ask me questions about it when they came up. Apparently he was stuck in the middle of the night working on a similar project and wanted answers...<span style="font-weight: bold">RIGHT NOW!</span>

I also sell a V8 Ranger conversion manual on my main site. I'll acknowledge that if you paid for something, I'll go the extra mile for you, and I always do for these guys. But I get a staggering number of guys complaining that I don't have my phone number on the site or in the book. I get 25-30 E-mails <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">a day</span></span> about building those damned V8 Rangers--and I answer them all to the best of my ability, giving out free knowledge that is in a book I sell for $25. What do you suppose would happen if I put my home phone number in there? There's only so much you can expect out of one guy who doesn't do this for a living (though it is paying for the Buick's restoration, which is why I put up with the crackpots). And don't get me started on the guys who lost their manuals and want another one for free--do you go to the book store and ask for another copy because you lost the first one? Do you contact the author and tell him to refund your money if you didn't like his book? People seem to expect a lot more of others when they get behind the keyboard.

Personally, I owe a <span style="font-style: italic">huge</span> debt of gratitude to my friends Nick, Nate and Doug Seybold who have answered literally thousands of my questions about 1941 Buicks. I'll never forget their generosity with their time and knowledge, and I'll never expect it to last forever. Should they ever ask me for a favor, I'll do it, no questions asked. The same goes for Bill Anderson, who answered a lot of questions for me after I read his excellent "1941 Buick Restoration Fact Book." I credit Bill for pushing me in the direction of doing a concours-quality restoration instead of making my car simply a "driver."

Respect the knowledge that is being shared and don't question the manner in which it is delivered. It's a gift, not an obligation. Gratitude is contagious!

[Guest imported_65gs76limited]

man, you guys are hard. i posted this question for a older member in our local BCA chapter who doesn't have a computer. as i hope you all have realized,I HAVE A COMPUTER! seems to me that a lot of the advisors that answered this post did nothing but complain about what a pain in the butt it is. if it so hard then don't do it anymore. back in the day,before computers how many had their phone numbers listed? now just because some older members haven't gotten out of the stone age they are limited as to who and how they are able to contact. i don't know about the rest of you guys but i was always one for taking care of the older members as they were the ones that we got our knowledge from to start with.

[Guest my3buicks]

If you would have also read the comments with open eyes, you would have also seen it was said we got much stisfaction, and enjoyment from it - like restoring a car, lots of hard work, but the outcome is worth it. Why can't YOU post the technical question to an advisor for the older gentleman, instead of stirring up controversy?

[Guest 53and61]

65gs76limited makes some valid points, but I for one am grateful to get the advisors' free and usually expert advice on whatever terms they want. And by the way, public libraries have computers with internet connection for free; the librarians will help you get online.

[Guest imported_65gs76limited]

keith, i would like to know what rock you just crawled out from under? i was stating my point of view from seeing it fist hand. where do you come up with this crap(stirring up controversy). call it constructive criticism. remember this is America we live in and i'am allowed to have my opinion weather you like it not!maybe your one of the guys that should quit.can't handle the heat,get out of the fire.

[Buicks Rule]

Tom,

I think you need to Re-read your original post.

Early on you seem to be complaining because some advisors only work by email "because not everyone has computers."

Then at the end you're complaining because other advisors only want to work through snail mail and "that takes too long."

Sooooo, you're unhappy with snail mail, you're unhappy with email. Could it be that you're just unhappy? Or that you believe that everyone should be accessable by phone? Folks in some professions have legitimate reasons for NOT permitting their phone numbers to be published.

Seriously, tech advisors provide a very important service to their fellow club members. They are VOLUNTEERS. I would bet that most of their interactions with members have been positive, enjoyable and worthwhile. Unfortunately, one negative interaction can easily persuade a volunteer that their time can be better used elsewhere. And the "just one more question" person on your phone bill can cause a huge dent in one's day and one's phone bill.

But Tom, you need to keep in mind that there is absolutely NOTHING obligating these folks to continue to provide this service or to do it at YOUR convenience. If an advisor is finding an individual is taking up an inordinate amount of their time they are well within their rights to decline to respond further. However, I would hope that case they would let the tech advisor coordinator know about the issue.

By the same token, if an advisor is finding themselves unable to respond in a timely manner to requests that they would put a message on their voicemail/develop a boiler plate email that indicates an estimated timeline for response.

[The Old Guy]

65GS76Limited! You may call it"constructive criticsm" but it appears to me you just like to B**ch! I listed my phone number and also that I would like to be called 6PM-11PM EST, and I have been called from 7AM to 3AM. I get a little upset when the caller is asking a question about judging, which I have clearly stated I know nothing about, but I am still polite. It appears from your posts that you expect VOLUNTEERS to be available at your convenience. If you don't think we supply a valuable service, talk to the members that we have helped!

PS I am probably one of the older guys in the BCA,(number 1308) and this organization is GREAT! even if we can't please everyone

[Guest my3buicks]

Tom, The rock I crawled out from is actually a building stone I have used in long term BCA experience and dedication and service. Let me know when the chip your carrying on your shoulder turns into a constructive stone to help build the BCA.

[Guest imported_Thriller]

As a relatively new member, and to try to bring some civility back, I'll try to add my 2 cents (Canadian).

First of all, I think the technical advisors are one of the great strengths of the BCA - they are a resource I can't get from my local car club because there aren't enough Buick experts to go around.

Personally, I would love it if all TAs (just trying to save a few keystrokes) had e-mail access. I prefer to type my issues and it makes it easier for me to be concise and include photos and that sort of thing. That being said, if I really needed the advice, it isn't a whole lot different for me to type in MS Word and print it out, stuff it into an envelope, and wait. Granted that will take longer, but I prefer to have the facts before I attempt to do something rather than trying something I don't know enough about and then have to get the advice. Only problem with that is if I copy the address down wrong or something and it never gets to the TA in the first place.

If I have a beef about TAs, it would be that not all years / models / pieces / whatever are covered. It seems to me that there is at least one of my cars that I don't have a TA available for. That being said, sites like these are valuable in that respect...do I need to ask a TA about a Nailhead issue when a lot of folks here have probably torn down / built up a few?

Another thing I've said before on this forum is that Bruce (CompactBC here - TA for baby Buicks 61-63) was extremely helpful in getting mine on the road, even to the point of offering some spare parts he had available. Some of that was based on photos I was able to share with him online. I can't say enough good things about him.

Overall, I have to say I am thankful for the TA program. Recognizing that it is volunteers doing the work, I understand what they go through and if I want information from them, I most certainly will do my best to respect their wishes regarding mode of contact / telephone hours and so on. I have volunteered in the past - put together a web page for a car club I belong to...I wound up as club president, so other duties took my volunteer time from the webmaster duties up putting up fresh information. A couple members bitched at me about it. I can't speak for anyone else, but it certainly didn't encourage me to sit down at my computer and get everything up to date - it was all in the way the criticism was presented.

Well, it is late here and I am supposed to work tomorrow, so I better get off my soapbox.

My hat is off to those who volunteer their time as BCA TAs.

[NTX5467]

Tom, I understand your concern about contact information for the TAs. I also understand that everyone has their own preference of contact method, which as the "giver" they are entitled to determine and specify.

From the perspective of someone with a question, I can fully understand how important it is for them to have an answer "NOW" as their whole life might revolve, seemingly, around getting that question answered. Can't wait, gotta call NOW! I've seen that happen--whether in the car hobby or in related businesses. And when the answer could not be obtained from a "willing expert", then THEY got to be the "bad guy" or were perceived to be "unresponsive" or whatever.

In earlier times, I've spent upwards of three hours on the phone talking to ONE person about car club things or car issues or answering a bunch of questions just because I was too nice to tell them I had other things I needed to be doing. I didn't mind talking to them, but there has to be a limit. Just as there has to be a limit on how much time I spend in here.

And that doesn't include the "I hear you like ________ cars and I have one for sale . . . ." or "How much is a ________ worth?" Initially, it's kind of neat to be asked these questions, but in the end it might have more to do with some people not availing themselves of the resources they might not know they had instead of trying to get out "cheap" with just a phone call. Or the people that just seem to want to talk to somebody.

What I have had to do is to advise them of where they can find the printed information they are seeking, instead of taking my time to "eductate" them. I had to learn the same things so I suspect they can too. One of the great things about car clubs is the sharing of information among the members, but everybody has their own tolerance level of what and when and how they desire to do that. Many people, by observation, are not fully aware of many of the informational resources that are readily available, it seems.

So, let me list a few tips that might help expedite the whole information gathering function:

--Have your vehicle information (not specifically quoting model number, but body style description) ready to relay to the TA when you call or write or email them. Just like going to the parts store, both of you knowing what the vehicle and its related equipment is important.

--Make sure the TA you contact is in the specified area of your inquiry, not just the general year and model of vehicle. Be respectful of their contact hours, if listed and ALSO know the time zone might be different than your own.

--Realize that the TA's time is just as important as your own. They have to eat, sleep, "pit stop", and work just as you do, so brevity is important.

--Understand that information you might be getting is related to one person's knowledge and experience, which might differ from what you'll find in a judging manual or service publication. Many times, you might get information you'll not find anywhere else too. Whether or not you decide to follow their response is up to you.

--If you might call, be aware that some people might not answer a phone call where the Caller ID is unknown to them, or "out of area". No way to determine if it's a telemarketer or someone with a TA call. And in the case they might do a "reverse lookup" of the phone number on Caller ID, having YOUR phone number capable of being found can be highly important.

--If you might get an answering machine or voice mail, be brief with your question and then offer a phone or email address for the reply. In the case of an email inquiry, be aware that some email providers do not send their emails immediately, but might "batch email" them at later times, so how soon you get a response will relate to when the email arrives and then when the recipient opens their email and responds to the inquiry.

--If you choose email inquiries, MAKE SURE your anti-virus protection on the computer you use to send the email with is UP TO DATE. Not relying on the Internet Provider to do it, but YOU doing it--period. I joined a mail list in 2004. About a month later, I started getting virus emails (usually 41-42K in size) from people who were obviously on that mail list, some from Europe and some from the US. Ended up with a mail box full of them--deleted them all!

Personally, I like email rather than phone or snail mail. It can allow for better response time and also allows me the flexibility of when the reply is done (i.e., 1:00am) so that I'm not playing phone tag or trying to schedule the rest of my life around getting the reply done at a time convenient for the recipient. Snail mail would be the next preferred medium.

And, of course, the OTHER OPTION would be to put a post in one of these BCA Forums about the question or concern. I suspect that many of the people whom you might desire to contact from the TA list monitor these forums regularly, plus others with various expertises that might not desire to be TAs too.

All of the people who are listed as TAs in The Bugle have signed on to make an investment in the Buick hobby, to the mutual benefit of all involved. But sometimes there's much more giving of information than thanks or compensation for receiving it. Being a TA can be very rewarding, but it can also be a variable pain too (just depends on the particular situation).

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[Guest imported_65gs76limited]

i knew i was going to get hammered for this post but what part did you guys not understand? i have a computer,i have a phone, and believe it or not i know how to address a envelopes.i was posting the question for a older BCA member that feels as he's being pushed out of the loop because he doesn't have or the want for a computer.look in the back of the bugle, some advisors only list a email address. he can't get in touch with them. that's what this post was about, not to here all you guys complaining about how hard it is.

[Guest]

Hi 65gs76limited,

Don't worry.... these guys never like to hear a diffrent opinion. I'm use to Keith's "writing"!

The TA program is weak, and the Budgle is to slow to update the page. I'm sure they are short staffed.

The internet groups are handing more questions and providing a friendly community to get tech advise.

The club is for fun, if these TA are not having fun then they should drop out of the TA program.

I belive most of the members you fine are not as kooky.

[Centurion]

It's time to stop the personal attacks, folks . . .

The points have been made. Those who have volunteered to function as Tech Advisors do so on their own terms, and that's how it should be. If the club were paying TA's for their time, then there might be some obligation to be more accessible.

Some people will not find the TA's to be as readily accessible as they would like. It is an imperfect system, and this will be the case with any system staffed by volunteers.

The only solution I can suggest is to recruit additional Tech Advisors. This may ensure greater access to a TA when desired, but it is no easy task to recruit folks for the job.

Can we now put this to rest? Constructive solutions should be shared, but there's no need to continue creating hard feelings.

[Guest my3buicks]

Ok, I'll work with you here - I looked in the back of the Bugle and out of the whole list there are 7 that don't list a phone number - out of that 7 ALL list a snail mail address and about half also have their email listed. Now, I may have missed 1 or 2, but out of all the tech advisors, I think that's pretty good.

[Buicks Rule]

Tom

Please read your first post carefully. In the first line you appear to be complaining because some members only list an email address. You've referenced that point twice in this discussion.

LATER in the SAME post you appear to be complaining about having to deal with snail mail and those advisors that will only work that way.

If you eliminate email, then you eliminate snail mail, about the only thing left is phone calls. After you've answered your first, or your 21 st, three am phone call from someone who wants to know why their local Autozone doesn't have a part ( or doesn't have it cheap enough ) you'll understand why some advisors won't post a phone number.

Also, one possible reason why the tech advisor list in the Bugle doesn't change too often is probably related to the fact that there aren't a huge number of people stepping forward to do the job.

[Guest Shaffer]

I do not like to get involved in this type of heated discussion, but I noticed a couple of things in the first topic: It says "most" have a phone number listed. I am not really familiar with the "bugle", but can't he just phone the folks with the phone numbers listed? Since most list the number, I see no reason why the ones with a unlisted number are a big concern. Also mentioned is that some people are not "up to date" with a computer. Perhaps they are not "up to date" and do not have a phone? (Just kidding- had to throw that one in there to kind of break the tension here). Another possibility for the lack of numbers is perhaps some sort of a family issue- such as illness and not able to answer a ringing phone all of the time, or something of that nature? I am sure they have their reasons and I doubt it is because they do not want to help. Just a thought.....

Lastly, you mentioned that you knew you would really get it by posting this, so you knew in advance.

I have been here on the forums for a long time and have NEVER seen a heated "discussion", so this is disappointing to me, but it is bound to occur every once and a while. Hopefully there will be no hard feelings between anyone here.

Enjoy the bugle and the forums!