antifreeze

[TWE143]

I started thinking about getting some antifreeze to put in the cooling systems for this winter; and find that most available now is the extended life variety. However, my son did find some regular ethylene glycol (Peak brand) near him.

Since I have a non-pressurized cooling system, I probably need only freeze and corrosion protection, and the extended change intervals are superfluous. Also, 100000 miles will never be seen in an antique truck. (It’s also 10 gallons capacity, which produces a financial hit!)

I understand the truckers have been using extended life antifreeze for some time, and that there is a testing procedure to determine the level of additives. Then, a package to bring the additive level up if required. I need to learn more about this.

What are the recommendations on what we should use? Also, the frequency that it needs to be tested/changed? I’m sure most owners of antique vehicles will be interested.

Thanks.

Tim W.Elder twe1@alumni.cwru.edu

[Guest]

I have always used ethelene glycol antifreeze for the last 46 years in my Pontiac. I put it in mixed 50/50 which will protect it anywhere in Canada or the US. I have never added water or antifreeze between changes. Every three years (about 35,000 miles) I drain and flush the system and put in new. I used to have it checked but it always checked out okay up until the third year so I don't bother checking it any more I just change it.

My wife's Malibu has the new long life stuff. It seems to be okay but I understand you need a closed system for it to retain it's quality???

[The Old Guy]

The "Dexcool" used in the new GM cars is coming under attack ,as there are problems arising. I have always used the Ethylene Glycol and NEVER had aproblem. There is an old adage " if it ain't broke, don't fix it" and I think that applies here

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

STAY with that which has PROVEN itself. Whats with this 'extended life' nonsense anyway???? Thats a new hoax i've yet to hear of.

The ONLY maintneacnce required with antifreeze is to check it YOURSELF every fall with a hydrometer. The hydrometer is CHEAP. JUST BUY ONE. USE IT!!!

Under any all and every normal to slightly severe conditions ther is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to change the antifreeze EVER!!!!! PERIOD. no if's, ands's or buts about it. IF it checks out ok with a hydrometer LEAVE IT ALONE!!! If it does not check good with a hydrometer just add antifreeze until it does. can anything be motre simple than that????

I have an 88 ranger still running FACTORY installed collant (other than occasional topping off by me). A 73 Impala - ditto. an 89 Caprice - ditto. 56 Packard same coolant since 1997 that i know of and its probably older than that. All of these cars are in daily use and i depend on them and run about 30K miles/year or more between the 3 cars.

Changing antifreeze every year or even every 30 years is absolute nonsense and a wasted effort.

[Guest]

I agree with PackardV8 that if it tests okay with a hydrometer it never needs to be changed but this only refers to antifreeze protection. You still need lubricant and rust inhibitor and these deplete over time. As I said in an earlier post I used to have mine chemically tested and found that after about three years I would have had to add rust inhibitor and or lubricant so I felt that it was easier to dump it all out and replace it with new. By the way I have never had to have my radiator or block cleaned out except for the time when I rebuilt my engine.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

TinIndian wrote:

"As I said in an earlier post I used to have mine chemically tested and found that after ..."

Was that done by someone u can trust???

In the cars i indicated above here is the stats:

One water pump on the 88 ranger (currently 160K miles)4 years ago at 120k MILES and a heater core it was plugged up. One water pump on the 73 chevy (currently 150K miles) at 80K miles about 12years ago and a radiator. The 89 Caprice is still bone factory including the air in the tires at 38K miles and only oil changes w/filter and grease and a fuel filter.

I can repeat this same scenario for at least 20 other cars i've owned and driven over the years. Never changed the anti freeze in any of them.

Is there someone that beat that record???

BTW, the coolant in the 88 ranger looks like Coca-Cola. I overhauled it 2 years ago and the water jackets are all nice and clean. Dumped the SAME coolant rite back in and have been driving it ever since.

[Guest JT]

For a more accurate reading of your antifreeze level use a refractometer. Most hydrometers aren't very accurate. Also it's important to check the ph of the coolant, anything under about 9 is corrosive to engine components.

There are refractometers that will let you check the moisture level in your dot 3 or 4 brake fluid too.

[Twitch]

Dexcool is superior to anything else in aluminum/plastic radiators. At least 2 independent mechicanics I have worked with for decades have mentioned how the green stuff will turn to a near gel with extended use. If you flush a brass rad regularly as you say you do there should be no problems with either. An important plus is that Dexcool also will not cause electro-conductivity to nearby electrical systems that we know on modern cars to be SOOO sensitive.

Regular flushing/changing is not important for the sake of degree of protection only. Rust and corrosion is a major factor that needs to be addressed. The crapola circulating through the system has lots of chemical nasties. Good detergent oil suspends damaging materials and lubricates your engine. Does anyone get careless about oil/filter changes and just add oil as needed for life? Unless you drive 99% at turnpike speeds you need to change oil/filter at 3000 miles in a modern car.

I personally have had many radiators rodded out despite having Prestone or equivilant green antifreeze in them. If price is a big factor just hold on for a sale at your local auto parts chain and stock up.

[Guest Ken G]

I hope I may jump in here. It is extremely rare to have a frost in San Francisco (once every 10 years, perhaps) and in any case I wouldn't take my Rover out then (open car with no heater!), so protection against freezing is not an issue. The original instruction manual makes no mention of antifreeze or of any additive to the coolant. The radiator/engine coolant capacity is more than 10 gallons. The radiator is brass honeycomb, the engine block cast iron.

With those starting points, what should I use to protect against corrosion? Antifreeze in the normal proportions would be gross overkill and very expensive in the required quantities. I have read somewhere that it is desirable for the coolant to be slightly alkaline. There must be some household chemical, at negligible cost, that would serve this function, but what?

Ken G, 1925 Rover 16/50 (San Francisco)

[Twitch]

Go to your pool and spa supply store and see which chemical does more alkaline.

[Guest JT]

If you are going to use tap water you would need to test for ph, alkalinity and hardness.

Baking soda will raise the alkalinity if low and you should make this adjustment first, then check ph. Soda ash will raise the ph. Calcium chloride will raise the hardness if needed. Of course you still need to know the proper levels of all of these for a coolant application.

[ted sweet]

the point is/was that the old type is being phased out. Prestone now only makes a universal type extended life, and a dexcool type. the old green stuff is disapearing.

[Guest imported_tigermoth]

hello, a while back skinned knuckles did a piece on anti freeze. they evaluated the different types. the guys who were talking about the chemical change over time with antifreeze are right on the mark. it gets more corrosive with time and use. extended life is great for the old cars because it will delay the onset of the change all antifreezes are susceptible to over time. all the modern antifreezes have corrosion inhibitors built in, but these will only give you corrosion protection during the life of the antifreeze. if you are going to run water, add a water soluble oil to the water. all car parts places sell it.

[Ron Green]

Ken G, even though you don't have to worry with freezing doesn't it get warm occasionally in SF? If you are looking for corrosive protection why not use antifreeze? It also offers boil over protection which helps your vehicle run a little cooler. At a 50 / 50 mix every 3 or 4 years it isn't really that expensive as you probably only need a gallon or two.

[Twitch]

Hmmm? A 10 gallon capacity with a 50/50 blend means 5 gallons. Peak is priced at $4 a gallon at Pep Boys this week so that means a whole 20 bucks. Geez, that's not even a tank of gas. I don't get it.

[Guest JT]

Actually if you're not concerned with freeze protection there are better choices than using glycol type antifreeze due to it's decreased ability to transfer heat. The heat transfer of antifreeze is not as good as water although it does increase the boiling point. There are a lot of products out there that will give you a rust inhibitor/surfactant additive to use with water in your system.

[Guest]

Just an aside to this antifreeze story. My Pontiac has a cross flow radiator. The proper level for coolant in the winter is just above the top petcock ( half way up the rad where the top hose enters). It was designsed this way so that when you used alcohol as an antifreeze it would boil off and instead of being lost into the air would be retained. With the crossflow rad the vaporized HCOOH would rise into the empty upper half and then condense and run down the side tanks back into the coolant. Therefore according to the advertisements at the time you only had to add alcohool once a year. I personally never tried it as I have always used a permanent??? type of antifreeze.

[Guest De Soto Frank]

Ah...the good-old days !

Alcohol anti-freeze and a 160 Deg. t-stat, and perhaps a snap-on canvas "winter-front" !

I think they called ethylene glycol "permanent" because it didn't boil-away on warm days or hard running; it "stayed" in the system.

The name has "stayed" with it too...

I'm intrigued about ethylene glycol's lesser heat-transfer efficiency...do the newest anti-freezes such as Dexcool have better heat-transfer qualities?

Are there any cautions against using the new stuff in a cast-iron/copper/brass cooling system ?

[Guest Ken G]

JT, Thanks for your comments. I actually have a small quantity of "Water Wetter" in there at present, but you refer to a lot of products. Browsing in the local automobile parts stores has not revealed them, or I have been unable to identify them (the blurbs on the bottles are singularly uninformative). Have you any concrete suggestions?

To whoever commented about cost, the point is that while I am still working on the engine, I don't know how many times I will need to drain the radiator, and it isn't practical, even if it was desirable, to keep the huge quantity of coolant (three large watering cans) to put it back. $20 here and $30 (the oil) there soon adds up.

Finally, I should point out that the car survived its first 15 years, when it did most of its mileage, probably with plain water (and hard water at that) or possibly with some added alcohol. Certainly there were no fancy anti-corrosion additives.

Ken G, 1925 Rover 16/50 (San Francisco)

[Guest De Soto Frank]

Ken,

While your Rover may indeed have run straight water during its youth, certainly there was little else available...and corrosion was a big problem with cooling systems...

Someone recently posted a thread about the possibility of re-casting cylinder blocks (for early Lincolns, I believe ) because of their propensisty to rust from the the inside out...

If for no other reason, I would recommend either ethylene glycol or some sort of other corrosion inhibitor, to protect your Rover engine from further corrosion...

Radiator Specialty Co.(Solder-Seal products) of Charlotte, NC used to market a "Water pump lubricant with corrosion inhibitors", which I believe was a solution of water soluble oils...

While it might be a bit of a pain, you can buy five gallon pails with lids from Lowe's or Home Depot, which will contain Ethylene glycol solutions safely...

( I hang onto old anit-freeze jugs for such purposes...)

How 's the bearing/crank project coming along ?

[Ron Green]

Here is a product that I have used. Its hard to find however Eastwood carries it.

www.no-rosion.com

[Guest Ken G]

Ron, thanks for the suggestion of No-Rosion, although I am amused to see it touted mainly to counter the corrosion-causing by-products of the gradual breakdown of ethylene glycol. This suggests two related things to me; one is that contrary to several people's comments, I am better off avoiding ethylene glycol if I don't need frost protection, and the other that anti-corrosion additives are much less necessary if ethylene glycol is not used. In fact, this brings me back to the question whether a tablespoon or two of baking soda, dissolved in a pint or two of water before being put in the radiator, might be as good a protection as any.

Frank, thanks for asking about the bearing/crank issue. In desperation, I took the car to the mechanic who services my MBW, and he got busy with a stethoscope. In his opinion, there are no serious problems (no audible problems anyway) with the bearings, but he did track down a knock in the vertical shaft that drives the oil pump, cam-shaft and magneto. He made an adjustment that stopped it and also, I cannot imagine why, reduced the dry bearing noises when the engine starts before the oil pressure comes up. However, the major problem, oil pump starvation on down-slopes, left-hand bends and coming to rest, remains. It is so obvious: it has to be too low an oil level, yet in fact the oil is well above the mark on the dipstick and in fact not much more would fit. I have just drained the oil and removed the pump, which looks fine. I have made the acquaintance of a man, now retired, whose profession was restoring antique cars. I drove him up and down a few hills, and he agrees that something is wrong and must be corrected because the engine will be damaged, so he is going to help diagnose the problem. I will post when I have news.

Ken G, 1925 Rover 16/50 (San Francisco)

[Twitch]

Yes every auto parts store this side of Pluto has products that usually come in 12 oz. bottles that inhibit rust and lubricate water pumps. There are many brands so take your pick. They're about the color of non-fat milk.

I see about recycling due to op and non-op status of the car. That is the way to go- drain the system and save the juice to refill later.

The water pump lubricants will immediately quiet a noisy pump too unless the bearings are totally shot too.

[Ron Green]

Like I said I tried the no rosion however I haven't used it in years. I have to many vehicles, old and newer and all are on a regular preventive maintenance program. Some of my vehicles are worth a fair amount of $ and when I do use them I don't expect them to give me problems or breakdown.

My antifreeze is changed regularly along with the oil (synthetic), brake fluid, power steering fluid, brand name gas and all is kept greased. I probably error on the doing to much side of things however problems are few and far between. The one battery I have is now 14 years old and it probably has lasted so long because I use battery tenders. Its not cheap with all the maintenance but replacement of a vehicle isn't cheap or the time (mine) consumed fixing things.

I can't imagine using 15 year old antifreeze as mentioned on this thread. Its like the guy who buys a 40K dollar vehicle and then lets it set out in the acid rain and sun because his garage has $500 worth of junk in it. To each his own.

[Guest]

Ron. I'm like you. I change antifreeze and brake fluid every two years and oil at about the 3000mile range usually with Mobil 1 synthetic. My cars except the Packard are used in winters where the morning temperatures can be lower than

-40 sometimes for several days at a time. My "new" car is 7 years old and my older second car is 20 and both still have original brake calipers, radiators, heater cores and engine blocks. For a few extra bucks it seems to pay off in lower repair bills and reliability.

[Ron Green]

Dave, Could not agree more. And yes Mobil 1 is the best in my opinion. With old vehicles that use carburetors they tend to dump more fuel into the oil as they can't adjust themselves like the modern fuel injected computer type and the synthetic's can handle the dilution better and longer then conventional oils, plus heat and cold don't effect synthetic's. Plus you won't find the residue (brown stuff on the inside of valve covers) as they don't go thru the cooking / refining process. The less refined (.79 cent a quart junk) the more residue.

I am the same way with belts and hoses. That's probably why I haven't had a breakdown in 15 years or better. Have never needed a radiator rodded, clogged heater core, flat tire, hose or belt failure, clogged fuel line or filter, etc on 7 vehicles. Never a engine problem and I one that is 50 years old and one 38 years old that have never been apart except exhaust gaskets. Of course after I buy one I go thru it pretty good. I hope my comments don't unleash the bad luck curse on me.

[Twitch]

Those that use the synthetic oil, do you leave it in or plan to leave it in 25,000 miles as per manufacturers' recommendations? In some of our cars that could be 10 years or more. Just wondering your experiences in that respect...

[Ron Green]

My old cars get changed once a year as they will get somewhat dirty from the carburetors as I mentioned and they don't get the constant hi-way speeds to help keep the oil cleaner. Mostly short jaunts. The other vehicles it depends on the usage, long hauls or short trips as it makes a difference. I don't know of any synthetic that is recommended for 25K miles. Maybe Amsoil states this mileage but the oil filter needs changed regularly. I wouldn't go that many miles.

[Twitch]

I have a belief in the technology of syn-oil but in truth it can't work as advertised- and they did advertise 25,000 miles between changes. I think Mobil 1 had the most commercials.

Let's pretend I buy an new Buick and put syn-oil in. At 3,000 miles I change the filter only and of course lose at least 1/2 a quart. OK top up with fresh oil and continue to 25,000 miles. In a 5 quart crankcase one will not end up with the same oil he began with and the longevity claim is null. That's not to say the syn-oil is not superior, but with advertising blurbs like that one must see what's is really going on.

I do see the benefit of using it in my Packard though...interesting.

[Guest bkazmer]

Oil "wears out" in different ways. Heat and mechanical action can lower the viscosity by literally breaking down the molecules. Additives can be consumed as some work sacrificially. Synthetic is pretty good at holding up to these. The last function of the oil is to carry miscellaneous crap(technical term) away. Yes the oil filter catches most of this, but changing the oil does "take out the trash."

[Guest 70 Electra]

There is a common misconception that traditional green-colored coolant is ethylene glycol, while the new extended life products like GM DEX-COOL are not. This is incorrect. All factory-fill coolants, and virtually every coolant in the aftermarket is ethylene glycol-based. The sole exceptions are the so-called "safe" aftermarket coolants like Sierra that are based on PROPYLENE glycol.

In any case, an automotive coolant is 95% glycol (ethylene or propylene), and 5% additives. There are three categories of coolants, based on the additive packages: silicated, hybrid, and organic acid technology (OAT).

The traditional green coolants like Peak, Prestone (not the new formula) are silicated formulas. This is 40-year old technology and has many shortcomings. Hybrid coolants use a mixture of silicates and organic acid additives. These coolants have been in use for many years around the world. OAT coolants are non-silicated and are becoming very popular on all types of new cars. GM has used a OAT coolant since 1996 in most models.

Although there has been much mud thrown at GM's OAT coolant, it is interesting to note that virtually every major vehicle manufacturer either has switched to this type of coolant or plans to do so. Prestone, the largest aftermarket manufacturer of coolant, has DISCONTINUED their traditional green silicated coolant in favor of a new OAT formula that is identical to the factory fill they supply to GM, except for the color. The majority of the complaints about the extended life coolants comes from the aftermarket service industry that has been losing millions of dollars every year because of the diminishing need for annual or bi-annual coolant changes. Obviously, they have a vested interest in convincing consumers they still need to change coolant every 1-2 years....just as they still insist everyone's new car needs and oil change at 3000 miles (even though many factory-recommended change intervals are 10,000 miles or greater!)

By the way, color is meaningless in trying to tell what type of coolant a product is. Although green color is associated with traditional silicated coolants, there are also green hybrid coolants, and the new formula Prestone--which is an OAT coolant--is yellowish green. Conversely, there are orange coolants that are OAT (DEX-COOL) and orange coolants that are hybrid coolants.

Saying a coolant does not wearout or need replacement is as ridiculous as saying oil does not wear out. While it is true that the freeze/boil protection offered by the glycol does not degrade with age/mileage, this is NOT true about the additive packages.

Silicated additives wear out in a couple of years. Hybrid coolant last longer but require replacement every 3-5 years. OAT coolants can last 5-10 years or longer. And when the additives are depleted, it is not just a situation of failing to protect against corrosion. To the contrary, some very aggressive corrosion can occur--much worse than if you had just water in the system!

Each type has pros and cons, but whatever you use, make sure you follow the manufacturer's recommendations for changing. At any cost, coolant is cheap protection for radiators, heater cores, and internal engine parts.

By the way, I strongly recommend the use of de-ionized, or distilled, water for mixing with coolant. Many contamination and pH problems can be introduced to the cooling system by using tap water.

[Twitch]

All I can say is I don't believe in lifetime anything either. It's relative as to what a "lifetime" is and who is calling it such. Auto transmissions are another area that bandy about the same phrase. Take any car and drain it at 50,000 and look at the crapola in it. Then imagine a manufacturer stating it is good to go 100,000 miles.

Preventive maintainence is just that- to prevent bad stuff that may or may not happen. Why gamble with you investment. People just don't want to be bothered to even vacuum the damned carpets anymore much less have a tranny or radiator serviced.

Overall it reminds me of the old TV commercial of the tow truck driver/mechanic "you can pay me now or you can pay me later," as he attaches the dead car. Heck, why would anyone want to spend $100 at 50k miles to drain the trans and change the filter when they can gamble on nothing happening, but at the 93,000 mile mark it may cost $1200 for a new tranny?

[Jim Bollman]

There seems to be a lot of expertise here on antifreeze. I have started switching over to the nontoxic type antifreeze just to protect the cats I have hired to do mouse control in my shop.

Any thoughts on pros and cons.

[Guest]

It should all be non toxic IMO!

[Twitch]

Toxicity shouldn't be a factor unless it leaks and then it's up there with gasoline, transmission fluid, power steerting fluid, brake fluid and A/C compressor lubricant which are toxic and will probably stay that way.

I'm a cat guy these days and I don't think cats are as curious as dogs in the respect of licking any and all liquid they come across. Cats would smell it 1st and shy away. The last dog I had though would have probably tasted 1st and sniffed later! I always see dogs as feeling bored and more likely to do that. And dogs DO drink out of toilets!

[Guest AlK]

Ken G.

I get the impression that your main concern is the water freezing in the block and the radiator during the rare times that the temp. in the area gets below 32'

If that is a true statement then I would recommend using windshield washer fluid. This stuff is rated at protecting windshield washer water down to 9' below zero. I have been using this for the last 20 years in my old cars with no harmfull effects. At about $1.00 to $1.75 a gallon it's cheap enough. My father used this on all of his every day cars up in upsate N.Y. where it can really get cold and never had a problem.

[Guest 70 Electra]

Jim:

Regarding the "non-toxic" stuff, I'm assuming you're referring to propylene glycol coolant (such as Sierra). Be careful, as this stuff is LESS toxic, but is clearly not "non-toxic". It can still harm animals and people, but requires more of it to do so.

The problem with any of these coolants (compared to gasoline, ps fluid, and others that Twitch mentioned) is that coolants have a 'sweet' smell/taste that can attract animals and kids. Most coolant sold in the aftermarket has an embitterment agent added to it. This is mandated by law in some states and most (but not all) coolant makers add it to everything so they don't have to monitor which batch goes to California vs., say, Wyoming.

The problem with the embitterment additive is that it has not been proven effective. While some animals find it "bad", others actually prefer it! This is a classic case (like so many other examples) of our legislators passing laws based on emotion and not scientific fact.

In any case, the "environmentally friendly", "low-tox" PROPYLENE glycol coolants can be made with ANY of the additive packages I described earlier: they can be silicated, hybrid, or organic-acid. They can also come in a variety of colors: green, orange, pink, etc. They have service intervals like conventional ethylene glycol coolants...ranging from a couple of years, to many. There is a PROPYLENE glycol coolant with the same organic acid additive package that is used in GM Dex-Cool. It has been approved for service use in GM cars, as a subsitute for regular GM Dex-Cool, and has the same service interval. It has not been financially successful for the maker, so it is very hard to find in the stores.

[Guest 70 Electra]

AlK:

The idea of using washer fluid in the cooling system is false economy. This is nothing more than water and alcohol. It offers no corrosion protection, and the alcohol content (that provides the freeze protection) will evaporate out of the solution quickly due to the temperatures the engine sees. In addition, many gaskets and seals (including internal water pump and thermostat components)are not designed for exposure to alcohol and may swell or degrade.

Yes, I realize that for many many years "antifreeze" was merely alcohol in water. When it comes to clinging to originality I am as anal-retentive as anyone, yet I am continually amazed by the number of enthusiasts/collectors that refuse to embrace the advantages and improvements of many modern products.

[Guest 70 Electra]

Twitch,

I agree that frequent fluid changes are CHEAP insurance, and you're certainly free to dis-believe "lifetime anything". However, let me ask you...

Do you own a late model car? If so, how often do you change the spark plugs? In the "good old days", spark plugs required cleaning every six months and replacements every year. On today's cars, with improved ignition systems, platinum plugs, and unleaded fuel, spark plugs routinely last over 100K miles. I'm not suggesting plugs will last like this on an oldie, but consider the improvements due to design and materials.

Motor oils have improved so much in recent years that change intervals exceeding 10,000 miles are not uncommon for non-synthetic oils. This is not hype; I have been involved in oil analysis from such vehicles and this is legit! Of course, in addition to improved oils, there are system factors that contribute such as quicker warm-up, higher "normal" operating temps, reduced blow-by from today's ring packs, and improved crankcase ventilation.

How about mufflers? Remember how quickly they rotted out in the "good old days"? As a kid, I remember my dad getting a yearly muffler installation on many of our family cars. Today, with better materials, unleaded fuels, and higher operating temps, factory exhaust systems last for many years. A good friend up the street has a 10-year old Camaro with 75K that still has 100% of the factory exhaust system!

Remember the short life of V-belt accessory belts? Many of today's multi-groove belts use premium materials that allow for a 100K mile (or greater) service interval. Combined with automatic tensioners, these can be maintenance-free systems for a decade or more.

Coolant was (in the old days) a seasonal service: you put in alcohol antifreeze in the winter, and switched back to water in the summer. Later, so-called "permanent" antifreeze extended service intervals to annual and bi-annual coolant changes. That was 40 years ago and technology has not stood still. Coolant change intervals of 4, 5, and 10 years are not uncommon with today's coolants and today's engines. The problem that comes into play is that the cooling system cannot be ignored. If the level becomes low (due to leaks, or normal evaporation) it must be topped off. No coolant can be expected to prevent corrosion when there is air in the system!

After 30years of "sealed" batteries, I'm sure you're a believer that the need to check/add water to a battery can be successfully eliminated by technology.

In any case, I am not suggesting that modern "long life" products and fluids will last in a collector car as they do on newer cars. The operating conditions and basic design of the parts/systems does not allow for full advantage of this. However, I do take issue that it is not possible for a fluid (or part) to have a considerably extended, or "lifetime" service interval. ("Lifetime", by the way, is generally considered to be 100K or 150K and ten years, in most owner's manuals...not "infinite" life.)

<span style="font-style: italic">My point is that improvements in design and materials have considerably extended the service intervals of many common repairs to the point that they are almost unnecessary! (at least in a 100K/ten year "lifetime")</span>

[Twitch]

Hey I even wrote a magazine article mentioning that nostalgia only goes so far and going back to "tune-ups" every 10,000 miles is not something people find attractive. In my own case the 100,000-mile-before-tune-up Northstar was pretty much of a sham. I had several injectors replaced under warranty before 75,000 miles. As for other components the plugs were changed shortly thereafter and I soon had crossfire problems that required new plug wires and I needed to replace one of the coils. Platinum plugs will live longer than 10,000 miles in a collector car if you can actually find a true crossover plug in the right heat range.

I had the radiator rodded and cooling system flushed a couple years ago- maybe 80,000 miles or so. Aluminum radiators in need of cleaning always show warmer temps even in mild weather as an indication for trouble ahead I've found. Had the trans flushed and filter replaced 55-65,000? I change oil at 3,000 since driving any % of time in stop and go is "severe conditions" in everybody's owners' manual. The fact that I'm spending $20 more for 2 more oil/filter changes than if I changed just once at 10,000 miles means nothing to me. That's chump change.

None of this is a big deal, just normal maintainence really. The changing of fluids is cheap and I can afford cheap. In realative terms less than $10 for 7 quarts of oil and a filter is nothing- I buy on sale. Who cares? I don't care if I have to spend $12 for a couple gallons of coolant/anti-freeze. So what if an air filter is $11 for my engine.

I just don't imagine anyone in the real world actualy going 10 years with the same coolant. In that time you're going to need a system flush and radiator cleaning and with heater and radiator hoses deteriorating at normal rates it is impossible to drive 10,000 miles a year and have the same coolant in 10 years. In addition, many things like alternators, water pumps, A/C compressors and power steering pumps require removal of the radiator to extract and replace them depending on the engine.

If a guy needs a lower hose you mean to tell me he or his mechanic is going to drain off his old coolant and save it? Hell no! Even I ain't THAT cheap!

I love my 96 ETC- El Dorado Touring Coupe and like the "tech" of it. But I don't like the ambigious symptoms computer cars offer when a problem arises. Everyone here has had the "check engine" light be anything from sserious injector problems to one weak spark plug to any of the myriad emission controls malfunctioning to a minor vacuum leak.

If one has any doubt of any of the liquids in their vehicle changing them is dirt cheap by today's or yesterday's standards. Can anyone remember ring and valve jobs needed on 1940s cars after 50,000 miles? Who wants to go back to that? I don't. But I really don't care if I throw some money away when I change an upper radiator hose on the Northstar by replacing coolant.