Taken For A Ride & Still Walking

[88Electra T-Type]

I recently had more than $1,000.00 in repair work performed on an '88 Electra T-Type, (200k + miles.) Work included: timing chain replacement, oxygen sensor replacement, tune-up, oil change. After the work was completed, there was no significant improvement in the car's performance, albeit the "Service Engine Soon" light was extinguished. The car was driven for 2 1/2 weeks and died on the highway. It was towed back to the repair shop & Now they tell me that the fuel injection needs to be replaced at an additional estimated cost of more than $500.00. Maybe my expectations are too high, but it seems to me that the mechanic should have disclosed this while performing all the other engine work. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[Guest John Chapman]

I don't want this to sound like a smart answer or to let a mechanic off the hook who doesn't deserve it... but, welcome to the world of old cars.

At 200K miles and 16 years on the road, anything could go at any time... and it might just... I don't think a mech could accurately tell you which old part will break next, or even if it will. Fix it and move on if you like the car.

Cheers,

JMC

[88Electra T-Type]

Thanks, appears to be a reasonable answer. As a follow-up, how difficult is it to replace the fuel injection, i.e., $500+ worth of effort and parts?

[Bill Stoneberg]

To get it correctly installed and tuned and working correctly is easily 500 dollars. It is actually harder to work on the older cars now for most mechanics because they dont see them all the time. Familiar chores on new cars take longer on older ones because you dont do them that often or at all.

I have a 1988 Buick too, and my mechanic always comments on how long it takes to do anything on the car.

[NTX5467]

For that amount of money, and considering the car "died" while driving, it sounds more like the "fuel pump module" than the "fuel injection system" to me--just my gut suspicion. Two related, but different, situations!

IF there is not a certain level of fuel pressure, then the injectors will not fire. Hence, my suspicion that the fuel pump area is where the repair will need to start--PLUS a new fuel filter, whose maintenance can make a fuel pump go bad as when the filter becomes restricted with time, it makes the pump draw more amperage to run, sometimes melting the wires on the sending unit in the process.

Fuel injectors are a different item--and 6 of them. If the tech has no knowledge of the fuel injection/fuel pressure interaction (there's a pressure checking port on the fuel injection fuel rail under the hood), then he might be starting at the wrong end of the car. Fuel injectors will make the vehicle run "funny" or get poor fuel mileage, but not kill the motor. Depending on sources, fuel injectors are usually around $100.00+ each (six of them) and the fuel pump could be about $100.00 too (possibly with a new strainer being extra), but if the sending unit needs replacement too, that could at about another $350.00 to the pump replacement price (working from general memory here) plus applicable labor charges. By comparison, finding a reman QuadraJet for an Olds 307 V-8 was very well past $1000.00 last time I looked, with rebuilds of same (if you could find someone to do it) could be well past $300.00, as points of reference, but depending on locale and who does the work.

Also, have them to a "tap test" on the Mass Air Flow Sensor. If, with the engine running at idle, you can "tap" on the sensor and it kills the engine, that's most likely the one item that could need replacement, provided everything else is operating ok.

One neat thing about computer diagnostics is that, although there are a multitude of things that can cause running, not running, or any other variation in between, knowing what the codes mean for THAT PARTICULAR year model of vehicle (especially on the earlier systems!!!) can not only expedite the repair process by zeroing in on the exact and related causes, it can give the tech greater confidence in what they do. Therefore, having a high quality code scanner and the appropriate GM "decode" manual for that year of vehicle is highly important. In other words, no "generic" check engine light code.

Also, the computer has a certain amount of memory in it, to store codes and also the operating parameters of when the check engine light was triggered. This is where a very good working knowledge of the computer system and a quality scanned can be invaluable. Yet many techs can still desire to "throw parts" at repairs and not get anywhere when, in fact, knowing what information's in the computer might help them build an effective "road map" to effective repairs--still they have to know what they are looking at when reading the codes, as in some codes relate to other codes.

It looks like you've got many things replaced that would have needed to be replaced as time progressed, but sometimes the "low hanging fruit situation" will not totally guarantee that a few other things might not crop up either. With any fuel injected vehicle, fuel filter maintenance is important to prevent future expenses, but even mechanical fuel pumps wore out too.

So, the fuel pressure check and then the tap test on the MAF might well be all that's needed to see where your problem is. DO make sure you understand what they will be replacing as details ARE IMPORTANT should any questions arise later.

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[Reatta Man]

The price can be very reasonable, depending on what the shop is doing.

Are they replacing fuel injectors? The injectors are pretty expensive and require the removal of the entire fuel rail. Are they having them pressure cleaned? I took the entire fuel rail off of my '96 Regal with the 3.8 engine, and had it cleaned at a shop that specializes in fuel injectors. Even though I removed the rail myself, the cleaning was about $100-140. They gave me a before and after printout of each injector; one was sticking partially open and two or three were partially clogged. Since having them cleaned, the car runs like new.

If you get the injectors done properly, you will probably notice an improvement in economy and acceleration. I would also ask them if they know why the injectors are bad, such as a clogged or damaged fuel filter, or is it likely due to age and mileage?

Joe

[JohnD1956]

Start with the most basic question; Do you like the car enough to stick with it? Electra T types are really nice cars and according to the standard catalog of Buicks, somewhat rare at 1,800 some odd produced. Still, 200K is 200K. Is it really worth this money?

If so, rest assured it most likely needed the timing chain, which was undoubtedly the largest expense of the repairs you already did. Second be assured that you have the better of the engines available, in that 88 was the cut off year for the 3.8 v6 which was replaced by the 3800 v6, two mostly different engines.

Next I agree with NTX5467. The service engine light most likely came back on when the car died. As long as the battery is holding out, the codes are in the computer. You'll need a readout. Before doing that however, have the fuel pressure checked. The car does not need to run for this. If there are no codes, and it does appear to be the fuel injectors, I can report that changing the whole fuel rail and the injectors frrom a salvage car yard is not all that difficult nor expensive.

Still 200K is 200K. Depending on your location you could have a broken fuel line? or a burnt out fuel pump? or, more related to the timing chain, a bad crank shaft sensor, or cam shaft sensor. Or even just so much as a broken electrical connection to the same.

What I can tell you is on a 3.8 engine once, after replacing the timing chain, and failing to install a new cam shaft magnet, the old magnet fell apart within a few revolutions of the engine. Not suspecting that at all we tried all types of trouble shooting. Several days worth of head scratching later we called in the big guns, who determined the problem and got it running. Unfortunately the 150K engine only ran another month and spun a rod bearing. But that was the 3.8, not the 3800. I personally know of three 3800's that each have 180K on them and seem like they can put in another 60 to 70K without breaking a sweat.

Also on that car with the 3.8 my son got an engine out of a junker with 170K for $300.00 and drove the car almost another two full years with minimal repair, till it also died one day. His electra t type was not worth the repairs and he sent it packing with close to 300 K on the body and well over 200 K on the engine.

God! I love them Buicks!!!

John D

BCA 3757

Next, I agree with