Craig Staker Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 (edited) It all started when I forgot to turn the key on and tried to start it. By the time I realized it had drained the battery. My neighbor jumped it and it started right up. I charged the battery, and it acted like there was a dead cell in the battery. I bought a new battery, and it started just fine. It was good for a few weeks then I let it set for a month. Then went to start it and it acted like the battery was dead. The battery had a full charge. I tried jumping it and this time it wouldn't start. When I turn the key on the battery voltage drops. It is a 6v system. all original. Before this it would start just fine no matter what. I don't know if jumping it with a 12 v has done something to make the voltage drop? Edited March 26 by Craig Staker (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WPVT Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 A few things going on here. When you say the voltage drops, I'm guessing you are looking at the ammeter on the dash ? If so, that's amps not volts. When you say that you jumped it, but it wouldn't start, do you mean it turned over but didn't fire ? Or do you mean nothing happened when you depressed the start pedal ? A common culprit on these trucks is the foot actuated contact that sits atop the starter. When that contact gets burnt, you can step on the starter and nothing happens, regardless of how fresh the battery is. It would be helpful if you could explain in more detail what is happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABear Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 Could be nothing more than coincidence. Are you measuring the voltage directly at the battery terminals? Most likely, you have bad or corroded wire and/or connections. If it was a short, I suspect you would be noticing something burning and or blown fuses. With 6V systems the slightest corrosion can and will drop a lot of voltage especially when a load is applied. Start at the battery, check the wire and terminations for any corrosion/rust. Clean the terminations and connection points, replace any wires that show signs of corrosion. If you replace, you will need to use the same or heavier wire gauge as with 6V systems are sensitive to voltage drops from too light ga of wire. Wornout or sticking starter or bad contact points on the solenoid could also be possible.. Might need to service that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Staker Posted March 26 Author Share Posted March 26 The first picture is with the key off. The second is with the key on and I'm pushing on the starter, but nothing is happening. When I try and jump it with a 12v battery it doesn't turn over at all. When I turn the key on it drops slowly down to 3.25. Then I turn the key off and it goes back up to 6.19. I did just today get a starter switch as seen in the picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Staker Posted March 26 Author Share Posted March 26 The picture of it showing 0.51 is when I'm pushing on the starter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryB Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 I would suggest getting the battery load tested. Yes I know you said it’s almost new but even new ones can act strange. It’s possible the starter is damaged or stuck too. You may want to bench test the starter to make sure it’s ok. When a dc motor like a starter is under load it draws lots of current which will make the battery output go to near zero. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABear Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 21 minutes ago, Craig Staker said: The picture of it showing 0.51 is when I'm pushing on the starter. Yeah, that isn't going to work. However, from your pictures, that does not appear to be a new battery, the terminals are too corroded. If you look up close to the top of the terminal, it isn't shiny, it is a dull grey with white (see the photo of yours that I have cropped and enlarged for details with red arrows). Electrons simply cannot flow through corrosion, the corrosion creates resistance and the resistance creates a voltage drop. Placing your meter leads against the corroded terminals with rusted bolts also affects the voltage the meter sees. Good chance the battery is discharged also since it would not have gotten much charge from the last time run.. Remove and SCRUB the surface with sand paper until you have a shiny surface, do that for the battery and the connector and try again. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Staker Posted March 26 Author Share Posted March 26 I put the new switch in and nothing. On the starter after I removed the old switch it looks like part of something is missing. Does that have anything to do with the problem? I also removed the coil wire so just the battery was connected to the starter and it wouldn't crank... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryB Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 A quick battery load test is to measure the battery voltage like in you first picture and then turn the headlights on. If the battery drops to something like 3 volts then you know you have a battery issue. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Staker Posted March 26 Author Share Posted March 26 I took sandpaper to the terminals and cables still nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Staker Posted March 26 Author Share Posted March 26 Would a bad starter make the battery drop like that? Still just having the starter connected to just the battery should get it to crank right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgreen Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 13 minutes ago, Craig Staker said: Would a bad starter make the battery drop like that? Still just having the starter connected to just the battery should get it to crank right? Yes, it could. Since the starter is very accessible, take it off and disassemble it. Look for hardened grease, sticking parts, broken wires and bad contacts. In other words give it a thorough cleaning and inspection. If you have a short in a wire in the field, then the starter will need a rebuild for that part. The starter switch on the right (photo above) looks like it has had a long service life. You can clean that contact surface with a file - IF there is enough material left. Once you re-assemble the starter, you should be able to freely turn all parts. Opening up the starter is a quick and easy way to see more of what your problem may be. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABear Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 8 minutes ago, Craig Staker said: Would a bad starter make the battery drop like that? Still just having the starter connected to just the battery should get it to crank right? Yep. A stuck or frozen starter presents basically a direct short load to the battery. Could be a variety of reasons but often old sticky grease, stuck bendix, shorted windings, shorted brush holders come to mind.. Does the engine turn freely by hand? Try turning the engine over by hand (typically can use a socket wrench on the crank shaft). Might be time to remove starter and try a bench test.. If you used a 12V battery to get it running the last time, it is possible that it slammed the bendix hard enough to bend or break parts.. 6V starters can often be run on 12V, but doing so can severely short it's life. The only problem I see with that, is the battery voltage dropping when you turn the key on.. It should drop slightly, but not to the extent you are seeing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Staker Posted March 26 Author Share Posted March 26 It does turn by hand. Should it start with the crank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WPVT Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 You said that you jumped it with another good battery and nothing happened. So whether your battery is good or bad is immaterial. The purpose of the contactor on top of the starter is obvious, and yours is obviously shot. So with the good battery hooked up, and the bad contactor removed, touch the cable to the stud on the starter. If it doesn't spin the starter, you have a bad starter. Make sure your replacement contactor is correct. They made different styles on some of those, and they all look similar. When it's all said and done, the foot pedal has to depress the contactor button sufficient to make firm and positive electrical contact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WPVT Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 As an addendum.... Those are great trucks, When you get this problem straightened out, take the time to install heavier gauge battery cables. The auto parts store will give you cables intended for 12 volt systems, and they are too light gauge. Also, run the ground cable to one of the bolts that hold the starter on, instead of to the chassis as it is now. With the battery ground going to the chassis, you are asking the current to travel through lots of rusty metal and old fasteners before it reaches the starter. Many folks feel they have to convert the trucks over to 12 volt, just because they don't do the above. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABear Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 22 minutes ago, Craig Staker said: It does turn by hand. Should it start with the crank? ABSOLUTELY! That is what that hand crank is for.. Can be pretty tricky to hand start/crank the engine as you most likely will have a manual choke and depending on age, manual spark advance. May take some effort and experimenting to get it to start via hand crank. However, best to figure out why the starter is not turning. At least at this point we can rule out foul play with the starter being engaged with the flywheel which typically prevents the crankshaft from turning. Might be time to remove the starter and see if you can test on the bench (you WILL want to clamp the starter to your bench as if it does turn it will present a lot of torque that can rip it out of your hands or if loose right off the bench), if it hasn't been serviced for a long time, fair chance the grease lubricating the bearings has turned rock hard.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Staker Posted March 26 Author Share Posted March 26 I took the switch off and touched it with the cable and it sparked but didn't spin the starter. I will let you guys know how it goes when I take the starter out. Thanks so much for all the information I really appreciate it guys! Very helpful! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WPVT Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 22 minutes ago, Craig Staker said: I took the switch off and touched it with the cable and it sparked but didn't spin the starter. I will let you guys know how it goes when I take the starter out. Thanks so much for all the information I really appreciate it guys! Very helpful! Then that's the culprit. Once you get a new starter in it, take the time to upgrade the cables and switch around the ground connection as I advised, and you'll have a very dependable truck again. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Staker Posted Monday at 09:05 PM Author Share Posted Monday at 09:05 PM I bench tested the starter and it didn't work. I took it apart and replaced the brushes and cleaned the armature. Then put it back together and bench tested it. It worked great. I installed it and tried to crank it. It didn't turn over and the battery dropped again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee H Posted Monday at 09:09 PM Share Posted Monday at 09:09 PM I’m betting you just have a bad battery. Did you ever load test it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Staker Posted Tuesday at 02:14 PM Author Share Posted Tuesday at 02:14 PM No, I haven't yet. I brought the battery in this morning that I used to bench test the starter. Hoked it up and I could hear the starter running like when I Bench tested it. The bendix gear wasn't turning the flywheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Staker Posted 8 hours ago Author Share Posted 8 hours ago Got the batteries load tested and both are bad. Just like you guy said. Got a new batterie. It still just turns the bendix gear but doesn't turn the flywheel. I didn't monkey with the bendix gear when I cleaned the starter and replaced the brushes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABear Posted 7 hours ago Share Posted 7 hours ago 37 minutes ago, Craig Staker said: Got the batteries load tested and both are bad. Just like you guy said. Got a new batterie. It still just turns the bendix gear but doesn't turn the flywheel. I didn't monkey with the bendix gear when I cleaned the starter and replaced the brushes. Wait, what? OK, backup a bit. With starter installed, new battery and now your starter IS turning (running) but flywheel is not, is that correct? If that is the case then Bendix is not moving out to engage with the flywheel. IE your Bendix is sticking in. In this case, most likely need a new Bendix. You may want to check the teeth on the ring gear on the flywheel, wornout or missing teeth can also allow starter to spin but have no Bendix engagement. Your sure when bench testing that the Bendix is moving out freely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalef62 Posted 6 hours ago Share Posted 6 hours ago I may be way off base, but isn't the bendix manually operated on this vehicle? When you press the starter button doesn't it engage the bendix in the flywheel? If so, are you sure you put it back together correctly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Staker Posted 6 hours ago Author Share Posted 6 hours ago Thats right. When I pull the starter out and bench test it the bendix works or appears to be working fine. Is it's possible that when the bindix is engaged on the flywheel that it doesn't turn that just the armature is turning. So, when I turn the bindix gear with my fingers I can turn it both directions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Staker Posted 6 hours ago Author Share Posted 6 hours ago So when I turn the bindix gear with my fingers one direction the armature turs with it the opposite direction just the gear turns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Staker Posted 6 hours ago Author Share Posted 6 hours ago yes, it is manually operated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Staker Posted 6 hours ago Author Share Posted 6 hours ago I removed the armature and the field coils to replace the brushes. And clean it. That was all. What could I have done that would have made the bindix gear not work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalef62 Posted 6 hours ago Share Posted 6 hours ago You may be on to something that the bendix is slipping, I have seen it happen before. Is there anyway you can watch the bendix while someone else tries to start it?0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Staker Posted 6 hours ago Author Share Posted 6 hours ago I haven't figured out how to test it to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Staker Posted 6 hours ago Author Share Posted 6 hours ago I took some cardboard and cut out a wheel. The cardboard stopped the bindix gear from spinning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Staker Posted 6 hours ago Author Share Posted 6 hours ago Could I have put the brushes in wrong, so it is spinning the wrong direction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Staker Posted 4 hours ago Author Share Posted 4 hours ago Well, that was the problem. I just got it to start finally... I took apart the starter and switched the two positive brushes. Thanks everyone for your help. I'm going for a drive. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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