Serial # location on a 1925 (?) Model TT

[Max4Me]

I apologize for the breach of protocol, but I have posted this question on the Model T site- 135 views but no replies. I have read that Ford did not stamp serial #s until 1925 so it should be there. Supposedly the number was stamped on the passenger side frame rail. I have searched and found nothing. So, is it 1) a model year earlier than 1925, or 2) is the number stamped elsewhere? I found a number on the engine block, but I don't know if the engine is original or a replacement. Thank you for any help!

[TerryB]

This is a very old original document I have in my collection. It does not go to 1925 but perhaps the information might be of help.

 

[Mark Wetherbee]

From memory, there was a specific time when the frames started to get stamped and it was during 1925. I think the exact serial number is listed in Bruce McCauley’s book on T Ford cars but I don’t exactly know where my copy is to check…

[wayne sheldon]

I guess I need to try to check the model T section here more often. I spend some time on the MTFCA forum everyday.

Ford put a serial number on every production vehicle manufactured from mid 1903 onward. The big question is where?

For the model T Ford, from the first 1909 model (manufactured in late summer 1908) into early 1926 "model" year, that serial number was on the engine block, and although there were other serial numbers associated with the early car (body numbers, radiator numbers, data plate numbers, etc), the ONLY official serial number on the entire car was the one on the engine block. Except for the first hundred or so cars, 1909 into 1912, the serial number was below the valve area, on the car's right hand side. Early in the 1912 model year (about November or December 1911) the "official" serial number was moved to the upper left side of the engine block where it moved around for a few months, before settling onto the space just above the water inlet to the block. There, it remained through the end of model T production.

1926 "model" year production began around September of 1925. It wasn't until well into December of 1925 that Ford began putting the serial number on both the engine block and the frame. So even early 1926 models had only the engine number for the official serial number. Location on the frame was usually very close to near the brake/clutch handle cross shaft. However, it could be on either side frame rail. on the top of the rail. I have seen a couple frames with the serial number farther forward from the cross shaft. No reason is known why the factory did that.

Sometimes, the serial number stamping is faint, and is often hidden by just rust. If one is there, sanding with a medium-fine sandpaper will usually show it. Coarse sandpaper works faster, but if it is faint, might completely obliterate it.

 

TT trucks basically followed the model T cars as far as serial numbers were concerned.

 

Odd exceptions. Some states, including California where I am, preferred serial numbers be on the frame, even back in the 1920s. So, sometimes, engine numbers, and sometimes state assigned numbers, were stamped onto frames. (California back then requested engine numbers be stamped onto frames, however, it was not required) These might be located anywhere!

 

If your TT is a 1925 model? It should not have a serial number on the frame. The only serial number for a 195 TT would be the engine block. And that number might be meaningless if the engine was changed at any time in the past 98 years.

 

Several good pictures could help with identification.

[Max4Me]

7 hours ago, TerryB said:

This is a very old original document I have in my collection. It does not go to 1925 but perhaps the information might be of help.

Terry,

The numbers on your page  are for the 'T". I'm not sure they apply to the TT, but in any case, the serial # on my block is in the 14,xxx,xxx (14 million) range, putting it well beyond a 1923 (6,xxx,xxx). This may indicate it is newer than 1925, or have nothing to do with it at all. Aargh! Still, I appreciate your effort to share the information!

[Mark Gregush]

The production numbers apply to all cars and trucks. The numbers on the frame started after the introduction of the 1926 improved cars. TT's are the red headed stepchildren when it comes to information, not a lot of info out there. Don't know if the frame was ever stamped or not for the TT's. If it has two bolts mounting ears to back of block and wide low and brake pedal, it is a 1926 up block. 

This link is to the Model T Ford Club of America online encyclopedia. While it is only a partial list by month, the breakdown by date is in Burce's book. 

Serial Numbers - Model T Ford Club of America (mtfca.com)

I have looked at the Ford page here, not much action so spend my time on the MTFCA or Facebook pages. Think there is an announcement at the top of the page here directing people to the MTFCA page. 

[Max4Me]

On 12/14/2023 at 11:36 PM, Mark Gregush said:

TT's are the red headed stepchildren when it comes to information, not a lot of info out there

Many thanks, Mark. You are right about little info. I previously found the engine serial # as an April 1927. A few articles I found said Ford started stamping numbers on the passenger frame rail in 1925. I have found none, so either the articles are wrong or my TT is pre 1925. A friend just gave me the Model T Service manual. Not specifically for a TT but has good info. Right now I’m battling a trans that seems to be stuck in high gear (direct drive). Just another problem to solve. That’s why we do this hobby.😁

Edited December 20, 2023 by Max4Me (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

Stuck in high gear is a common problem with model Ts that have sat for a few years. Usually, it is the oil soaked multiple disc clutch that has twenty-five discs stuck together and the oil dried out a bit.

If the engine was in decent running condition before it was parked? Usually, blocking the rear wheels safely off the ground, and going ahead to get the engine running again (with the rear wheels in the air!) will circulate fresh oil, warm whatever was left in the clutch, and then the clutch discs will release as they are supposed to with very little trouble.

 

Most model T history and mechanics applies to both the T cars and the TT trucks. Rear end in the TT is of course much bigger and heavier. Still similar in design.

The big difference is that Ford supplied bodies for the cars from the very beginning. However, TT trucks were chassis only beginning with the 1918 models (very late 1917 calendar year, still 1918 models!). Other than some special stuff, mostly for the military, the first bodies supplied by the Ford factory for the TT trucks were the fixed roof C-cabs for 1924. The enclosed cab TTs began in 1925. Both C-cab and enclosed cab TT trucks were available with or without either the flat bed or the express (pickup) bed.

Everything before 1924 was body supplied by either the purchaser, the dealer, or some after-market supplier. Pre-1924 TT bodies varied a lot!

[Sigafoose]

I am a newbie here but recently purchased two TT's without a lot of info regarding them. Your discussion is interesting because I too am trying to identify what I recently bought. I have looked for the engine block identification numbers as well as on the frame rail and have come up empty. Is there an exact location of the engine i.d. #'s? Maybe someone has some pics to show me more specifically. Thanks all.

[wayne sheldon]

Again, TT trucks before about December of 1925 (and some possibly later into early calendar 1926?) only had the official serial number on the engine block! 

Before that, there would not have been a serial number on the frame anywhere from the factory. Some states encouraged switching to "frame" numbers even by the early 1920s, so in some cases, numbers might be found on the chassis put there by the state, or local constabulary, or even a local repair shop (rules were loose in those days?). In those cases, the numbers could be put ANYWHERE! California was one such state that tried to push chassis numbers very early, and over the years I have seen (and had!) several frames with numbers located in a bunch of different places, always somewhere on the front half of the frame.

For 1926/'27 models with factory stamped serial numbers on the frame? Remove (if there are any?) the front floorboards. See the brake handle and clutch cross shaft (if it is there? Or find where it was?). The factory serial number (IF it has one?) should be on the top of the frame rail, within inches (sometimes directly over!) the brake cross shaft below it. It could be on either the right or the left frame rail. The ten millionth model T was produced almost two years before the serial number was added to the frame, so original serial numbers (on USA built Ts) should be eight digits long.

Water and dirt could often settle into that area, often obscuring the stamping, and sometimes eroding it away. Scrape the area somewhat clean. maybe use some medium grade sandpaper on it to help it show up (if it is there?).