1926 Dodge Brothers transmission trouble

[Adam Akers]

I am working on putting together a spare Transmission and engine that I got in a bunch of parts that I got awhile back.  I was told the engine and transmission were both rebuilt but had never been run.  I tend to believe that based on everything I can see and the receipts I got with various parts.  When I got the parts the transmission was not on the engine they were separate.  I am having trouble with the transmission only wanting to shift into 2nd gear.  If I take the top cover off of the transmission I can push the top cover forward about 3/8" and then it will shift into 1st and reverse.  I can not get it to shift into 3rd.  I have taken the transmission apart and it appears that the front gear does not go far enough onto the clutch square shaft.  Here are some pictures of it out of the transmission. Should the gears slide all the way down to the spacer that is on the clutch shaft?  

Edited September 13, 2023 by Adam Akers (see edit history)

[Minibago]

That spacer is not something I recognise as being in my gearboxes.

[Minibago]

This might help.

 

 

 

[Adam Akers]

I am not sure what the purpose of the spacer is since the gear doesn't go far enough on the square shaft to touch it.  It was on the shaft inside the transmission right before the front bearing.  It just seems the high speed sliding gear will not slide far enough onto the clutch. I will check to see if it is in line with the lower gear.  

[Minibago]

Your picture shows a double gear on the square clutch output shaft.

I have not seen this before. If you have a multiplate clutch the correct gear should look like this.

 

 

The top face should face the clutch.

 

 

[Minibago]

This intermediate gear is used to select first and second (as shown in the pictures above and fits into (inside) the fixed gear on the output shaft when selecting top (high) (third) gear.

[Minibago]

This gear, pictured in the opening thread is not correct for this gearbox.

The spacer is not correct either.

 

 

 

This is what you need.

 

 

As shown in the Dodge Brothers parts list and marked high speed sliding gear.

 

 

 

[Adam Akers]

I looked around my mechanics instructional manual the other night and didn't catch the fact that it shouldn't be a double gear.  I have to wonder when in its life it got that put in, and why.  Thanks for the help.

[Minibago]

Adam,

This gear needs to mesh with the larger gear on the lower layshaft in reverse, neutral, first and second. In this photo the gear is clearly visible on the left.

 

 

and fits inside the gear (when selected) which is fixed to the main output shaft to provide direct drive for top gear. In this picture you can see that it has slid inside the final drive gear with only the selector fork groove visible.

 

 

 

Having two cogs of different sizes on the clutch square shaft will not provide these selections. Fortunate that you did not fit this gearbox to a car without checking.

Good luck.

Nige.

[Mark Gregush]

I wonder if at some point the transmission was used in a homemade tractor so high gear was locked out with that setup. 

[Adam Akers]

I was able to spend some more time trying to figure out this transmission issue.  I think that I am more puzzled now than before.  So I can see that in the documentation that the high speed sliding gear should be a single gear and not a double gear like what I have, but the double gear that I have meshes perfectly with the counter shaft drive gear.  So when my high speed sliding gear is not slid into the High speed internal gear it does not drive against the counter shaft drive gear.  And when my high speed sliding gear is slid into the high speed internal gear the other side of the double gear is driving against the counter shaft gear still.  This would make me think that my counter shaft drive gear is smaller than it is supposed to be.  So in other words if I was to get a new high speed sliding gear it would not drive against the counter shaft gear.  I have read about the man that had redesigned the lower gears so that they were not quite as low speed, does anybody know if there were changes that were made to the counter shaft gear to make that work?  Is it possible that this is actually a 1927 gear box that is different internally?  Right now with the gear box not on the engine and the clutch being loosely slid into the gear box I can get it into first, reverse, high, but not second (this is the shift pattern that is listed for passenger vehicles in my 1926 book of information.  Basically the gear shift can go forward left, downward left, forward right, but not downward right.  And I can easily spin the U-joint and the clutch spins in the correct direction for the different gears selected.  But since the high speed sliding gear will not slide freely on the clutch square shaft I can't get it into second gear.  Any thougths?  This is a picture of my counter shaft and lower gears.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Adam Akers (see edit history)

[Adam Akers]

So I want to update everyone.  I did find a very small burr that was keeping the gear from sliding freely on the clutch shaft.  So it is moving freely now.  After putting it together multiple times I have come to the conclusion that someone swapped the high speed sliding gear for the double one that I have and then changed the lower counter shaft drive gear for a smaller one to fit with the new double gear up top.  The spacer keeps you from being able to put it in 2nd which is the only gear that wouldn't work because the double gear would grind through the case.  The spacer is the exact thickness to keep the shift lever from moving out of neutral in the downward swing to the right.  If I remove it then I can get it to move past neutral and the double gear drags on the inside of the gear box.  Has anyone ever seen a modification like this or heard of it.  From everything I can tell it will all work in R 1 and 3 I just do not have 2nd.  And if I am thinking about this correctly since the counter shaft gear is now smaller it will turn faster which should make 1st and R faster than it was stock.

[Mattml430]

It would be interesting to see how it drives like that. You might of stumbled across a neat modification. 
I would leave it like that and try it. 

[Adam Akers]

I am going to try to figure out gear ratio change.  Can anyone tell me the number of teeth that the factory high speed sliding gear has as well as the counter shaft gear.  I am guessing that the factory high speed sliding gear has 16 teeth.  The front gear on my double gear has 20 teeth and the bottom countershaft gear has 24 teeth.

[DodgeBrothersEd]

Minibago, might the correct gears needed for Adam's transmission be able to be purchased from you along with the correct lower cluster?

[Minibago]

4 hours ago, DodgeBrothersEd said:

Minibago, might the correct gears needed for Adam's transmission be able to be purchased from you along with the correct lower cluster?

I have many spare gearbox parts, all used.
Happy to help out if required.

Just let me know what is needed and I can sort something out.

[Minibago]

On 9/17/2023 at 5:00 AM, Adam Akers said:

I am going to try to figure out gear ratio change.  Can anyone tell me the number of teeth that the factory high speed sliding gear has as well as the counter shaft gear.  I am guessing that the factory high speed sliding gear has 16 teeth.  The front gear on my double gear has 20 teeth and the bottom countershaft gear has 24 teeth.

The sliding gear you refer to

 

 

has 16 teeth.

 

The idler shaft gear you refer to (the larger of the two) 

 

 

has 28 teeth.

Two types, one is bushed with a larger shaft and the other, I think later, has roller cage bearings.

 

Part number 94332 still available from 

 

 

I am an enthusiast not an expert so I offer my thoughts only.

I feel that it is necessary to match the Clutch output shaft (square) with as close a fit sliding intermediate gear as possible. Just finding a better sliding gear is not enough.

The noise / vibration is produced as a combination of wear in the following areas.

The bearing on the nose of the clutch into the flywheel should be replaced.

Part number 6304RS on the bearing in the picture.

 

The bush in the nose of the output shaft is available from Myers Early Dodge.

 

 

And of course the front and rear gearbox bearings.

 

I am in Australia so source as much as you can from your country the postage will be expensive.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 16, 2023 by Minibago
Pictures doubled up (see edit history)

[nat]

18 hours ago, Minibago said:

The front gear on my double gear has 20 teeth and the bottom countershaft gear has 24 teeth.

     With those numbers and gears of the same tooth size, (diametrical pitch), only combinations that add up to 44 teeth can be used.

     

[Minibago]

Hi Nat,

The original set up using DB parts, 16 and 28 makes your 44 teeth.

[Minibago]

On 9/17/2023 at 4:06 AM, Adam Akers said:

So I want to update everyone.  I did find a very small burr that was keeping the gear from sliding freely on the clutch shaft.  So it is moving freely now.  After putting it together multiple times I have come to the conclusion that someone swapped the high speed sliding gear for the double one that I have and then changed the lower counter shaft drive gear for a smaller one to fit with the new double gear up top.  The spacer keeps you from being able to put it in 2nd which is the only gear that wouldn't work because the double gear would grind through the case.  The spacer is the exact thickness to keep the shift lever from moving out of neutral in the downward swing to the right.  If I remove it then I can get it to move past neutral and the double gear drags on the inside of the gear box.  Has anyone ever seen a modification like this or heard of it.  From everything I can tell it will all work in R 1 and 3 I just do not have 2nd.  And if I am thinking about this correctly since the counter shaft gear is now smaller it will turn faster which should make 1st and R faster than it was stock.

Ralph Provan (sadly no longer with us) who designed and had manufactured in Australia new gears raising the final speed of both first and second gear included a new first gear, second gear, the high speed sliding gear and the removable gears on each end of the idler shaft. I purchased the complete set. It is important to note that the square drive on the new high speed sliding gear was made slightly smaller to help compensate for wear on the clutch output shaft.
 

 

Also required was the later lower idler gear set and the later reverse idler with bulge to accommodate the extra tooth on the reverse idler.

 

Sadly not many sets were sold, most folk only buying the new high speed sliding gear in order to quieten their noisy gearbox as it is this gear, rattling on the clutch output shaft that causes most of the noise in first and second.